Pairing Wine with Food

[laurenkusa]

So, I have gotten an idea about which wines I enjoy. Now how do I pair them to the foods I enjoy.

My taste buds are unique so someone's recommendation to me may not work, or will it?

I ask you all to help me learn more about enjoying wine with food.

Thanks

[Daniel Rogov]

Lauren, Hi......

I'm going to refer you to several little articles I have written about food-wine matching but before that let me remind you of the advice of at least several truly great chefs: "Find the dishes you most enjoy and the wines you most enjoy and try those together. The chance is you're going to love the matches you make"

Best way to sum it up perhaps is to report on how one day my most faithful companion and I made our way to lunch to Moul Yam in Tel Aviv, there to feast on oysters and then crabmeat stuffed lobsters. With the oysters we had a fine Muscadet de Sevre et Maine and with the lobsters, a Burgundy red.

Seated at a nearby table were two couples and they kept glancing at us. To tell the truth, for a few moments their glances were even uncomfortable. Finally, one of the women stood up, came to our table, excused herself very politely and asked: "Excuse me, but aren't you Daniel Rogov?" I responded in the affirmative. She asked "Mr. Rogov, with all you know about wine and food how can you drink red wine with seafood?"

I did not answer her but had the waitress bring another chair and place setting to our table. The wine waiter poured some wine for her and I gave her part of my portion. All I had to do was to watch her eyes as they lit up with pleasure .....

As to the articles - see http://www.stratsplace.com/rogov/wine_food.html

Edited October 6, 2005 by Daniel Rogov (log)

[Brad Ballinger]

I'm also going to send you to other articles. I suggest you Google "Tim Hanni" to find articles by him and about him and his philosophy, which I find sound.

The bottom line is that foods that are in balance and wines that are in balance will go well together. Here's another bit of his philosophy:

The principles of wine and food pairing, says guru Tim Hanni, boil down to two simple rules: one, food that is sweet or has discernible bitterness tends to make wine taste drier and exaggerate any tartness or astringency; and two, food that is salty or sour tends to make wine taste milder.

You can often alter how the wine tastes by altering the food you ingest before sipping the wine. For example, if the wine seems too strong, add something acidic (citrus, vinegar, mustard) and then see how much "softer" the wine has become. If the wine seems to soft, add something sweet and see how much "stronger" it now seems. Balancing out the food tends to also balance out the wine.

[jsolomon]

Lauren, the advice that I have is not quite so learned as Daniel Rogov's or Brad Ballinger's, but it is equally as important. Don't be afraid to make mistakes. When you are trying to pairings, be ready to evaluate them on their own qualities.

In my cooking and drinking experiences, I have made some really tremendous missteps. I have a group of dinner friends who you can simply say "brussels sprouts" and they will dissolve into laughter because of a grandly misguided attempt at hote kweezeen. It missed haute cuisine by a long shot, but it was a fun dinner.

Wine shouldn't be considered unapproachable. It wouldn't be in so many different cultures if it were. Wine should be looked at like an old friend always welcomed to the table, not the boss who should be approached with great deference and probity.

Have fun with your learning. You'll be glad that you did. Mistakes are just new experiences in another light.

[Brad Ballinger]

Wine shouldn't be considered unapproachable.  It wouldn't be in so many different cultures if it were.  Wine should be looked at like an old friend always welcomed to the table, not the boss who should be approached with great deference and probity.

←

Agreed. And the answer to the question, "Which country makes a bigger deal and is more hung up about food and wine pairing than any other country in the world?" would be the United States in a landslide.

[Daniel Rogov]

Wine shouldn't be considered unapproachable. 

Agreed in full and with great enthusiasm at that! Above all, wine should be a pleasure in life, and that means indeed making mistakes and even enjoying those mistakes and sometimes even laughing heartily at ourselves for them. I am reminded of the story of a critic of international renown who once mistook a Burgundy wine for a Bordeaux. When asked by a young man how he could make such a "horrible error", the wise man smiled and responded: "Don't worry son. It doesn't happen to me often. Never more than once a day"

[Rebel Rose]

Hi, Lauren, I'm glad that you are joining us here. With the approaching holidays, the subject of pairing wine and food is very pertinent to all of us, and in fact your particular question--how to choose one wine for a group of people, or a group of foods, is a situation that occurs frequently when families and friends gather.

When dining with friends, I am often volunteered to choose a wine for the group, while the others are still pondering the menu. Rather than bludgeon everyone over the head for entree choices, I try to choose one interesting white, and one mellow but layered red.

At the moment I'm rather fond of gruner veltliner as a white selection--it's a crisp white wine with an intriguing twist of black pepper. It goes well with seafood, salads, spicy sauces and even some lighter meats. My favorite red varietals for versatile food pairings are pinot noir and sangiovese.

[liamdc]

If you're interested in experimenting with wine pairing to home-cooked food, Food & Wine's web site--www.foodandwine.com--offers some good recipes with wine pairing suggestions.

[PCL]

The classic "There is no right or wrong" answer seems to be avoided, but it really is necessary to work with what you like and know.

Lauren, it might be a good idea for you to tell us what you like and then we can brainstorm, suggest and carry on till the cows come home.

To echo Mary's point, I'm kind of into certain things at the moment, and if what I'm eating doesn't fit the wine, I'd rather stick to a glass of sparkling water than begrudgingly go for a wine that 'matches' just to be 'correct'. Sometimes, personal choices can make others cringe, but with time, I'm sure many of us learn to accept and even celebrate diversity.

Some 'scary' combos I've tasted and enjoyed recently:

- fish 'n chips with pinot noir

- pork belly lentils with a cabernet s/shiraz/cab franc blend

- tempura prawns with cab merlot

- pinot grigio with pinot noir...(don't ask, didn't really enjoy this one)

[Rebel Rose]

In today's NY Times:

Swiss Chard and Smoky Bacon Bring Earthy Wines Into Focus

these timbales of Swiss chard, bolstered with smoky bacon, could also bring the wine into focus alongside grilled fish, or with poultry. The timbales can be served by themselves as a first course or presented in a pool of creamy tomato sauce for a luncheon.

I do like dishes with bacon and smoky flavors served with syrahs and other deep reds, but I like those flavors to be subtle, not overwhelming--to sort of echo the balance of flavors in the wine itself. These chard and bacon timbales sound like a good way to do that. Hmm . . . Thanksgiving?

[jsolomon]

Y'know, one of my favorite comfort food pairings is ham and bean soup or ham and split pea soup with cabernet sauvignon.

One other addition to all of the advice we've given you is ask the waitron/wine store slave if they've tried the wine you're looking at. If they say they have, ask them about it. Ask them what they would eat with it. If you don't get a specific answer like "this would go well with a garlicy pork dish" you're probably not getting a very considered bit of advice, and it's time to move on to another shill or another bottle--one that is better described by the person you're talking to.

Wine salespeople are like butchers and fishmongers. Develop a good relationship with a reputable one and you'll be doing yourself quite a service. With the breadth even small wine shops offer, they are likely to not be terribly snooty about the "obvious superiority" of one wine over another. They're just people in to move their product and enjoy their lives. Hopefully both of these intersect in a happy place.

[JohnL]

Another thought--

If the food in question has an ethnic background then look to the wines produced and/or drunk in the place from which the recipe/food originates.

for eg

I have learned a lot by looking at cookbooks from various places around the world and then looking at what wines are produced/drunk in those same parts of the world.

It is hard to argue with local who have a history of hundreds of years of experience in cooking and winemaking.

[laurenkusa]

First,

let me thank everyone for their advice. I have recently gone on a holiday and tried to find wines to match the food, but found some difficulty with the limited selection of wines available.

What I like (You asked):

I like most french and italian whites especially alsatian whites, vouvray from the loire (I think), viogner, etc. I belong to the anything but chardonney club for sure. I have had some good white wine blends, including one from Venge this summer that I truly enjoyed. Also I love hard to pronounce and spell german wines, not just reislings, but also Gewurtztraminer and so on. One person mentioned Gruner Veltliner and I like that too.

I like Rose, not white zin, but the french dry style Rose, not too sweet. I also like dry french ciders. an example of rose that I like is from Bonny Doon - Vin Gris de Cigare if I recall correctly. Also Gundluch -Bunschau Tempanillo Rose is good

In reds I like pinot Noir ok, tempranillo, carignane, mouvedre, etc. Not a big Cab or Merlot fan I seem to respond unfavorably to a wine that is heavily tannic.

And Yes I like champagne/sparkling wines - prosecco, Roederer estate from CA is good and once I had a very good red wine champagne from Schug - Wow! that was back in 02 and I still remember it.

I also enjoy port.

So recently, I went on a holiday and had a pork dish, so I ordered a glass of Gewurtztraminer, it was okay, but maybe I could have picked something better. I would have gone for a rose, but none was available.

The next night I had venison and my husband had duck. I ordered a Pinot noir since it was on the list. The venison was served with kalamata olives and some sort of sauce. It went better with teh duck than the venison, I think due to the olives.

Anyways, I look forward to learning more I thank everyone for taking the time to help.

Lauren

[Brad Ballinger]

First,

let me thank everyone for their advice.  I have recently gone on a holiday and tried to find wines to match the food, but found some difficulty with the limited selection of wines available.

What I like (You asked):

I like most french and italian whites especially alsatian whites, vouvray from the loire (I think), viogner, etc. I belong to the anything but chardonney club for sure.  I have had some good white wine blends, including one from Venge this summer that I truly enjoyed.  Also I love hard to pronounce and spell german wines, not just reislings, but also Gewurtztraminer and so on.  One person mentioned Gruner Veltliner and I like that too.

I like Rose, not white zin, but the french dry style Rose, not too sweet.  I also like dry french ciders. an example of rose that I like is from Bonny Doon - Vin Gris de Cigare if I recall correctly.  Also Gundluch -Bunschau Tempanillo Rose is good

In reds I like pinot Noir ok, tempranillo, carignane, mouvedre, etc.  Not a big Cab or Merlot fan  I seem to respond unfavorably to a wine that is heavily tannic.

And Yes I like champagne/sparkling wines - prosecco, Roederer estate from CA is good and once I had a very good red wine champagne from Schug - Wow!  that was back in 02 and I still remember it.

I also enjoy port.

So recently, I went on a holiday and had a pork dish, so I ordered a glass of Gewurtztraminer, it was okay, but maybe I could have picked something better.  I would have gone for a rose, but none was available.

The next night I had venison and my husband had duck.  I ordered a Pinot noir since it was on the list. The venison was served with kalamata olives and some sort of sauce.  It went better with teh duck than the venison, I think due to the olives.

Anyways, I look forward to learning more I thank everyone for taking the time to help.

Lauren

←

Well, it appears as if you are well on your way to learning through experimentation. Depending on how the pork was prepared, and sauced (if at all), one of those hard to pronounce German riesling wines could make a decent match. Pinot Noir, overall, tends to pair well with duck. Venison is such a lean meat that many opt for something lower in acid than Pinot Noir and packed with fruit, such as a shiraz or zinfandel.

[Bubbalicious]

I love the fact that you ordered a Gew with pork.

Too many people would want a red with a 'heavy' meat like pork.

What you ought to try when you're dining out is asking for

a tasting portion of a few glasses of wine so that you can evaluate

which works and which doesn't. Sometimes you can get some

fun and interesting results this way. In Vancouver we have a few

restaurants that offer 2 oz. pours of the wines offered by the glass.

If you can't do that then split a couple of wines with someone.

Ask the server to pour each glass into two separate glasses.

I also think that it's important to develop a relationship with a wine retailer.

Poke around in a few stores and find a clerk that you get along with.

Get to know their weekly schedule and go in during off-hours when it's not busy.

If the store is full of customers then the advice you're given is not going

to be as in-depth and well-thought-out if there are others that the clerk

needs to help as well. Weekday afternoons are usually good and Sunday days.

There is nothing more that a wine geek loves than to talk about food and

wine pairing and getting a client to try new things. I used to work in a

wine shop myself so I speak from experience.

If you would like to read about W&F pairing there are two books that I would

recommend. One is Wine with Food by Joanna Simon. A lovely book that

breaks down the science of W&F pairing. She tends to ramble on a bit,

but it's good bedside reading.

Another is A Matter of Tast by Waverman and Chatto. It was nominated for a

James Beard the year it came out. It is a cookbook that gives you wonderful

seasonal menus with recipes by Lucy Waverman and then wine pairings with

short essays by James Chatto. Both recipes and essays are fantastic.

Enjoyed reading your last post. Hope you will write more and let us know what you've discovered.

[PCL]

Splendid thoughts, Bubba. In essence, you're saying to treat your wine retailer like you would your butcher/fishmonger/greengrocer/fruiterer/fav barman... it's all about relationships!!

Develop a human one to augment the one with the Bacchus!

[Vinfidel]

not so sure I would call pork a heavy meat

you do a nice double-cut pork chop with apple sauce or apple compote char on the grill

i can see it would be great with a gewurtz or a riesling

[JohnL]

not so sure I would call pork a heavy meat

you do a nice double-cut pork chop with apple sauce or apple compote char on the grill

i can see it would be great with a gewurtz or a riesling

←

I agree.

With food and wine pairing, it is often difficult to generalize based upon the main ingredient. For example chicken can be successfully paired with almost every wine red or white. It all depends upon the preparation and the other ingredients in the dish.

pork is one of those items that can work with whites or reds in many styles based upon how the pork is prepared.

The other side of the coin is the difficulty in generalizing about wine when pairing it with food.

For example cabernet sauvignon and chardonnay are produced in many different styles even within the same geographical area--for eg. even being as specific as to note california chardonnay from the Russian River doesn't help much.

I have found it better to focus on the wine's flavor profile than its varietal type and origin.

What one is really attempting to do in wine and food pairing is to make a decision based upon the flavor profile of the food and the wine.

Whenever I sense a migrane coming on as a result of this process, I often throw all this out and just consider the dish I am going to make/eat and trace the dish to its place of origin then I ask myself : what would the locals drink with this?

[Vinfidel]

to me the best answer is like you said john

do like the locals do

another problem is use of oak that can make it hard with some foods

a good book is called RENAISSANCE WINE PAIRING on this topic, using both traditional and new pairing techniques. i forget exact but i think andrea immer and daniel boulud are involve in this book somehow, both are pairing maniacs

[JohnL]

to me the best answer is like you said john

do like the locals do

another problem is use of oak that can make it hard with some foods

a good book is called RENAISSANCE WINE PAIRING on this topic, using both traditional and new pairing techniques. i forget exact but i think andrea immer and daniel boulud are involve in this book somehow, both are pairing maniacs

←

Yes oak is a factor. Or it can be a factor.

I don't want to get into an oak vs no oak debate (would be fun in a separate thread though) javascript:emoticon(':rolleyes:')

Oak when well integrated is a very good thing.

Oak that is overdone is not and certainly not so good--and definitely is a factor in making a good match with food. I think many would agree that a well made Montrachet is a nice accompaniment to any number of foods. Often I like to pair a "buttery" rich chardonnay with food that is also buttery and rich.

It is all a matter of personal taste, though I think too many people are a tad "knee jerk" when the subject of oak presents itself.

What is important is an understanding of the wine's flavor profile so one is "armed" with enough knowledge to make a good choice. Oak aging is certainly a key factor in that profile--knowledge is good.

ps

thanks for the book tip.

[laurenkusa]

Well I will have to see if I can find those books. I just got a book from the library by andrea immer about pairing so i hope that will help.

Of course, here is my latest crisis: Thanksgiving. Everything is pinot noir or chardonney.

Has anyone tried drinking something other than these 2 wines during the meal? What did you like?

thanks again,

Lauren

Edited November 15, 2005 by laurenkusa (log)

[jsolomon]

Pinot gris is good with crudite platters (especially if they aren't overpowered by a really creamy dip)

German wines, for instance Riesling, Gewurztraminer, Spatburgunder would be wonderful. Ask your wine purveyor for a QbA or a QmP German wine and you'll be set for wines that aren't necessarily American classical Pinot or Chardonnay.

[JohnL]

Well I will have to see if I can find those books.  I just got a book from the library by andrea immer about pairing so i hope that will help.

Of course, here is my latest crisis: Thanksgiving.  Everything is pinot noir or chardonney.

Has anyone tried drinking something other than these 2 wines during the meal?  What did you like?

thanks again,

Lauren

←

Nothing wrong with chardonnay or Pinot!

actually why not try a

Beaujolais--cru like Morgon from a good producer etc.

Rhone-either a cotes du Rhone or a Cote Rotie from someone like Guigal or a Chateauneuf du Pape.

for whites: how about a Vouvray (chenin blanc) or a sancerre (sauvignon blanc)?

If you want to stay with an American theme--

Try a good syrah from California or a Zinfandel.

Oregon produces some good pinot blancs and Washington State has some good

Merlots.

Best advice I can give is to check out a good local wine shop. (hopefully there is one)

and put them to the test!--a good relationship with a conscientious wine merchant is invaluable!

[Brad Ballinger]

Well I will have to see if I can find those books.  I just got a book from the library by andrea immer about pairing so i hope that will help.

Of course, here is my latest crisis: Thanksgiving.  Everything is pinot noir or chardonney.

Has anyone tried drinking something other than these 2 wines during the meal?  What did you like?

thanks again,

Lauren

←

Here are some other wines that generally get recommended:

Zinfandel since it's an American wine to go with an American holiday (although recent research has shown that the grape used to make zinfandel is actually Croatian in origin, or something like that).

Riesling either from Alsace or Germany (and you could also include Australia).

Sparkling wines, which is what I usually serve.

Beaujolais Nouveau since it comes to the market one week before.

[davebr]

Once at Peristyle in New Orleans, the GM Brian, was pairing a wine with each course of food that the Chef was sending out of the kitchen. Then just before the entree, he opened a bottle of wine and announced that he had no idea what we were about to eat next. "It's fun to pair a wine with a course, but sometimes it's just as fun to open a good bottle of wine, serve some good food and let it all work itself out".