Per Se ends tipping in favor of service charge

[Fat Guy]

I agree. Even if tipping worked, it would be a fundamentally flawed system of substitute compensation. That it doesn't work, however, helps the argument quite a bit.

[Bux]

The guys I really want to tip are the ones in the kitchen. Let the waiter sneer at me all he wants. I want the bigger portion, the extra truffles, etc. on my plate. Since I go out to eat for the food, it makes me wonder what how the restaurant gets the kitchen to perform to such high standards without tipping.

[Bux]

True, but human nature being what it is, don't you think seeing a large service charge number in print, rather than it being included in the menu/wine list price, would deter people from leaving an additional tip? Or do you think at that level, it doesn't matter and people will add more for whatever reason they may have?

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I'll be happy to tell you what I think I would do, or what I think others should do, but I'm not going to bet on what they will do. For me it will be just like dining in a foreign country for the first time. I"ll nudge my wife and ask her what I should do. She'll tell me she didn't ask to be born into a society where the men take out the garbage and make the decisions about tipping. Then she'll tell me to keep an eye on the other table that's ahead of us in the meal. When they leave, I'll ask her if they left a tip and she'll say I was supposed to be watching for that. Then I'll make a decision I don't want to be held responsible for making and block it out of my mind so quickly, I won't be able to remember when I'm asked for advice. The next time I go there, I'll be embarrassed, but I won't remember if it's because they think I'm a piker or a spender.

I remember the first time I ate in a really fine restaurant in Paris in the winter. When I left, somebody gave me my coat and I gave him a tip. He looked as it he'd just met someone from Mars and put the money in his pocket. I never wear an overcoat anymore even in the dead of winter.

[WHT]

Thought I should also mention that Chez Panisse has long had a service charge, currently 17%, and Charlie Trotter's has an 18% service charge.

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Trotter also was sued for improper use of pooled tips under a state law forbidding tip pools to be used to offset the pay of nontipped employees. Other states also have this sort of law. The case is still pending as far as I can see.

The hospitality industry is the only one where I see the patron being asked to subsidies payroll expenses. Steve brought up how he was paid at his firm and it sounds like the system sucks. I would much rather be paid on my billable hours and percentage of settlements but that is more in line with personal injury, employment and some aspects of intellectual property law. It might be interesting as an experiment to make it more like a hair solon; you get the space to practice your craft and basic support but have to provide your own tools or rent the tools from the salon.

Another scenario is running it like any other service; it might increase the price to the customer but it would fluctuate for both the participants and the customers. A well run trendy place with good overall costs could pass that savings to the customer; bad performance would be weeded out due to internal pressures.

The government in the USA has no obligation to us as far as a lot of the points mentioned; the companies have little obligation other than to obey the law, turn a profit for the owners and pay taxes, employees are left in this case with doing as little as they can to maintain a job. People that work on commission fall into two areas in the long run. Those that strive to improve and are rewarded and quick buck artists. Sadly the current system favors the later. A service charge gives the patron the choice of doing business in advance; tips put the control (under most US law.) in the hands of the patron.

The teamwork argument to me is the most ironic. Did Rodman earn the same as Jordan? Did Reggie Jackson get paid as much or less than the rest of the team? You need to pay people on measurable performance in any case. I think the average American would pay more for a meal than tip or pay a service fee. Faced between that and raised taxes to pay for social services to other people. Why else would the Teamsters divide with the AFL/CIO? Too much based on being a member rather than the job you do is one large part.

In the end your meal cost is fixed; how it is divided is still the question at hand. A lot of the arguments are valid and should be explored and some don’t even merit thought. I suspect that the nonconfrontational prefer tipping and the more aggressive prefer a service charge. There are others that are so price fixated that it is not an issue as long as it meets with there expectations.

[Fat Guy]

There are law firms that work on the model you've suggested. There's also the example of the Cahill system (Cahill Gordon & Reindel, where Floyd Abrams is a partner), where there is no assigning partner. Rather, associates are responsible for getting their assignments. They accomplish this by approaching partners individually for work. There are some interesting benefits to this system, particularly that it is said by some associates to impose "market discipline" on unruly, obnoxious partners -- those partners find that they can't get any associates to work for them. Cahill is a highly successful firm, so there must be some validity to the Cahill system. At the same time, Cravath is by many measures a more successful firm than Cahill -- many will tell you that Cravath is the best law firm in the world; something I've never heard anybody say about Cahill -- and the Cravath system couldn't be more different. In other words, there's more than one way to skin a cat. If you don't like the Cravath system, go work at Cahill, or vice-versa.

However, neither Cravath nor Cahill is funded by a bizarre regulatory exemption wrapped around an even more bizarre gratuity system that depends on that exemption for its viability. Remove the exemption and force tipped establishments and service charge establishments to compete on the merits and see what happens. I don't think it's any coincidence that the (small, inconclusive, but probable) trend among the very best restaurants is towards the service charge.

The professional sports analogy doesn't seem relevant to the case of Per Se, because Per Se already has pooled tips. The change is from pooled tips to a pooled service charge. The expected improvements in esprit-de-corps would seem to derive from a variety of sources: bringing the front of the house and the back of the house closer together, eliminating customer whim as a control factor, making servers more like employees. Different players on a sports team make different amounts of money, but so will different employees at Per Se -- captains make more than front waiters make more than back waiters make more than bussers. Better servers will surely be rewarded in various ways: better private party assignments, easier stations (more four-tops, fewer two-tops -- it takes just as much work to serve a two-top as a four-top), vacation priority, shift priority, etc.

And of course there is the opportunity to rise into management. Those who think of food service as a transient line of work should take note of some statistics from the National Restaurant Association:

Ladder to Management Opportunity

    * Nine out of 10 salaried employees at tableservice restaurants started as hourly employees.

    * The number of foodservice managers is projected to increase 11% from 2005 to 2015.

    * More than three out of five foodservice managers have annual household incomes of $50,000 or more.

    * Eating-and-drinking places employ more minority managers than any other industry.

[Kim WB]

I'm suprised by the lack of specific attention paid to the wine issue...especially because people most likely buy more wines over the $150 price point at Per Se than in many other restaurants, since many consider a visit to Per Se a special occassion.

If I purchase 2 - $200 bottle of wine, I would usually only tip 10% on that amount, plus 20% on the food. In fact, at Per Se, , I think we did just that.

If we had chosen a $60 bottle of wine, and had two, the service charge would have been $24. ( using 20%) By choosing a more expensive bottle, w/t he same amount of effort and energy ( opening, possible decanting, pouring) the service charge escalates to $80. My husband would have freaked. It's a control issue , and a courtesy issue

Plus the issue of their wine mark up, and the profiit from that...is it an identical markup at every price point?

[Fat Guy]

It's similar to the food issue: it takes no more service to serve a plate of caviar than to serve a green salad; yet the tip or service charge on a plate of caviar may be 15-20% of $150 whereas the tip or service charge on a green salad may be 15-20% of $8. I think people are just more alarmed by it when it comes to wine, because the variation in wine prices is so large and also because there's a perception that wine is just a purchased, prepared food -- like a can of tuna or something.

The thing is, why should a customer be able to decide after the fact how much to pay for wine service? This is an excellent example of tipping having absolutely nothing to do with the quality of service. Some people believe you should tip the full amount on wine no matter what the price; some people believe you should tip 10% on wine but 20% on food; some people believe you should tip a flat fee on every bottle of wine, say $10 per bottle no matter what the price. Quality of service never enters into the equation.

It seems a little strange that people who routinely pay 300% markups on wine (in other words, just about everybody who eats in a fine-dining restaurant) are balking at a 20% service charge. But in any event, if the exact cost of a bottle of wine or any other good or service is announced up front, there is no courtesy or control issue. The price is the price. You are given the courtesy of ordering it or not at the agreed upon price; you have control over whether or not to order it at the agreed upon price. Just as in every normal retail transaction, you get to decide. It's just that you decide in advance instead of afterward.

[TPO]

I can see the point with the wine issue -- I think some people may feel like they are being penalized for buying more. Especially when markups already are so high, some may feel as though they are contributing enough to the restaurant's bottom line with a $300 wine purchase.

In other situations, we do not decide what to pay after the fact. But at the moment I can't think of any other situation where the labor charge is based on the cost of an item. My auto mechanic doesn't charge labor on a percentage of the cost of the brakes, my computer guy doesn't charge labor based on the cost of the replacement part, etc.

A labor charge in a restaurant situation might be more fair because the people who order salads and take up a table for two hours aren't paying less than the couple who order an expensive meal and leave as soon as they are finished. Logistally, however, I don't think it would be possible. I can't imagine having to order, then being given an estimate for the labor charge at a restaurant!

So I guess the service charge will work even with its flaws unless a better system is developed at some point.

[Varmint]

It's similar to the food issue: it takes no more service to serve a plate of caviar than to serve a green salad; yet the tip or service charge on a plate of caviar may be 15-20% of $150 whereas the tip or service charge on a green salad may be 15-20% of $8. I think people are just more alarmed by it when it comes to wine, because the variation in wine prices is so large and also because there's a perception that wine is just a purchased, prepared food -- like a can of tuna or something.

The thing is, why should a customer be able to decide after the fact how much to pay for wine service? This is an excellent example of tipping having absolutely nothing to do with the quality of service. Some people believe you should tip the full amount on wine no matter what the price; some people believe you should tip 10% on wine but 20% on food; some people believe you should tip a flat fee on every bottle of wine, say $10 per bottle no matter what the price. Quality of service never enters into the equation.

It seems a little strange that people who routinely pay 300% markups on wine (in other words, just about everybody who eats in a fine-dining restaurant) are balking at a 20% service charge. But in any event, if the exact cost of a bottle of wine or any other good or service is announced up front, there is no courtesy or control issue. The price is the price. You are given the courtesy of ordering it or not at the agreed upon price; you have control over whether or not to order it at the agreed upon price. Just as in every normal retail transaction, you get to decide. It's just that you decide in advance instead of afterward.

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This may be entirely irrelevant, but because I often dine with my children, the bill is not very much, because of the loss-leader prices of kids' meals. But the waitstaff and buspersons end up working harder for that smaller amount of money -- kids can make an unbelievable mess and they're quite demanding. Thus, I end up tipping a much higher percentage of the bill to make up for that. That's the inverse of the wine predicament.

How this plays into the entire discussion of going to a service charge is for the rest of y'all to determine!

[rich]

From now on I'm going to give my credit card to the restaurant and let them put it a service charge, tip, gratuity, bribe, etc of their choice. Let them determine the amount I should pay based on the total experience.

About thirty-five years ago a baseball player named Boog Powell and his team, the Baltimore Orioles, coudn't come to a salary agreement. He signed a blank contract and said at the end of the season, the team should just put in a fair number. During the season he was paid at the previous year's rate and at the end of the season he was given an additional $50,000 - everybody was happy.

This could work in restaurants. At the end of the meal, the manager would determine the food quality, service, ambiance etc. and just enter a fair monetary figure. No pressure, no hand held calculators, no tipping studies, nothing to fret about - everybody's happy.

[Fat Guy]

The example I cite most often is that it takes very near the same amount of labor to serve a table of four as it does to serve a table of two. As between tables ranging between one person up to about five people, service is more of a per-table thing than a per-person thing. Talk to captains at nice restaurants before a shift and they'll say "This is going to be a great night; I've got all four-tops" or "Tonight is going to suck; my station has almost all two-tops tonight."

[Kim WB]

I can see the point with the wine issue -- I think some people may feel like they are being penalized for buying more. Especially when markups already are so high, some may feel as though they are contributing enough to the restaurant's bottom line with a $300 wine purchase.

Yes, this is my point...and I understand Steven's point, although I don't agree with it.

Does anyone think that this policy will make some people think twice about ordering a more expensive bottle? there are many diners who are well aware of the retail cost of a wine, and understand that markups are part of the drill..but I know that when the markup is out of control, my husband will rebel. He always says he know's he's getting f*cked, but some markups are so insulting, he feels like he's pulled down his pants an bent over to make it easier for them.

Ans I should clarify that the 10% is for wines over a certain price point..a passable $40 red at our local Italian restaurant gets computed as the same percentage as the food.

[oakapple]

I've always found personal experience to be more reliable than studies. [snip] Anyone who has taken Economics 101 understands that. People are not completely "up-front" when speaking about cash.

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If that's the case, then the "personal experience" you've referred to in this thread is no more reliable than the studies you're criticizing.

After all, your "experience" is based not only on what happened to you, but what you perceive to have happened to other waiters with whom you worked. I'm assuming you didn't rigorously audit their tips, but they told you what they were making, and you believed them.

But if people are not completely "up-front" when speaking about cash, then why is your anecdotal experience any better than the repeatedly verified results of numerous controlled studies?

FatGuy wrote:

What other services are you allowed to pay for, after the fact, according to your whim? That doesn't strike me as a right; it strikes me as an anomaly.

Well, the same argument would apply in respect of any service for which tipping is customary, such as porters, bellboys, doormen, taxi drivers, blackjack dealers, and coat-check attendants. However, the customs surrounding who gets tipped and who doesn't are somewhat peculiar and difficult to rationally justify. Airline flight attendants perform services rather similar to many of those listed here, but I've never seen anyone tip a stewardess.

[Carrot Top]

It might be worthwhile to consider the fact that though wine is "marked up" at a higher percentage than food is. . .sometimes the profit from those bottles is used to subsidize the restaurants food cost on their operating budget, which makes it possible for some restaurants to provide perhaps a greater variety of offerings along with offerings that cost the restaurant more to make. . . to their customers at a better price than if the wine were not marked up.

Wine markups are a part of good menu engineering.

[Fat Guy]

Surely, there are a few other service industries where tipping is the norm, though most of them fall under the same "hospitality industry" umbrella as restaurants: coat-check, bellboy, etc. There's some sort of dividing line, though, between a gratuity that's a little extra and a gratuity that's the whole wage. My building's superintendent, for example, gets maybe $1,000 in tips at holiday time. And maybe I give him $20 when he comes over to do some repairs. But he makes a decent living one way or the other -- the gratuity is just some extra, and he doesn't extort tips out of the residents by withholding services from those who don't tip as well. It's a fine arrangement. But in other buildings, with different casts of characters, it can be a total nightmare.

[rich]

I've always found personal experience to be more reliable than studies. [snip] Anyone who has taken Economics 101 understands that. People are not completely "up-front" when speaking about cash.

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If that's the case, then the "personal experience" you've referred to in this thread is no more reliable than the studies you're criticizing.

After all, your "experience" is based not only on what happened to you, but what you perceive to have happened to other waiters with whom you worked. I'm assuming you didn't rigorously audit their tips, but they told you what they were making, and you believed them.

But if people are not completely "up-front" when speaking about cash, then why is your anecdotal experience any better than the repeatedly verified results of numerous controlled studies?

For two reasons: 1) First and foremost, I know what I made. Before the change to the "15% must system" I was turning in more money in cash and credit card tips night after night than any waiter in the restaurant. And 2) I heard the complaints from others who didn't make as much after the system was changed to "15% must." I also saw the credit card tips that had to to be turned in every evening over years of time - and those couldn't be inaccurate unless the waiter convinced the customer to put a small tip on the card and give cash for the rest (not a reasonable assumption). And once the 15% rule went into affect, it didn't matter because the individual got to keep anything above the 15 number anyway. Just to note - only about 10-20% of the tips were in cash.

Sure they could have been less than honest about the cash tips, but it's far more likely customers weren't completely up front about the tips they left. Everyone wants to look better in surveys and studies - simple human nature, we all do it. Reference the Kinsey report someone mentioned in a earlier post on this thread.

Edited August 12, 2005 by rich (log)

[rich]

It might be worthwhile to consider the fact that though wine is "marked up" at a higher percentage than food is. . .sometimes the profit from those bottles is used to subsidize the restaurants food cost on their operating budget, which makes it possible for some restaurants to provide perhaps a greater variety of offerings along with offerings that cost the restaurant more to make. . . to their customers at a better price than if the wine were not marked up.

Wine markups are a part of good menu engineering.

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If that's truly the case, wine drinkers might become upset knowing they are subsidizing the food costs for non wine drinkers - and then paying an additional 20% on top the already inflated wines prices.

Edited August 12, 2005 by rich (log)

[Carrot Top]

There is a difference between "dining" and "eating". (*)

And when one goes to a restaurant (of a certain type, but one would hope that all restaurants would strive to be of this type no matter what their category of cost or style) . . .it might be assumed that one has gone there to "dine".

Dining is not just about what you put in your mouth and how it tastes. It is about being cared for through the "medium" of food. The level of care can be tasted in that food. Indeed, the level of care starts way before it reaches your mouth.

It starts with how the place of dining has been planned to work. Has the physical space been designed to provide comfort and pleasure for the diner as well as providing a physical space that "works" for the people that are employed there so that they can perform their tasks in a way that flows easily?

It moves on, into the planning of the operations. Have all the details been covered in terms of what is expected of staff so that confusion does not occur. . .so that everyone is on the same page?

Has the menu been designed so that the diner will approve and be pleased? Will the menu be "doable" with the kitchen equipment that exists, or will it be difficult somehow. . .

When the raw ingredients are purchased, care must be shown and this is a neverending process.

Everyone knows by now, (I would assume) that if there are bad feelings in the kitchen it is likely to influence the food that reaches the table. So care must be shown there, in management of people and things each day.

Finally the food is ready to come to the table.

And here, each nuance of the person that serves that food is important. Their way of service and of being can make the diner feel as if they were experiencing a "nothing", or a negative, or. . .they can make the diner feel very. . .very well cared for.

This is what we seek when we approach the table. Feeling cared for.

And if. . .we approach that table where there are delightful things to taste and warming feelings to experience hopefully waiting for us. . .with a sense that we are there to "judge" the experience and then place a price on it (at least directly in terms of tipping for service, and indirectly in terms of the menu prices). . then there is a distancing from this feeling of allowing oneself to be well cared for in the first place. A wall has been started to be built.

Dining. . .is about the generosity of the table. It is about experiencing one of the best sorts of care that one human being can show for another.

Therefore, when I approach the dining table. . .I make sure I can pay the bill. . and I also make sure that whether it is a twenty dollar entree or whether it is a two hundred dollar bottle of wine. . . that I can feel ample generosity to leave a twenty percent tip, for I. . .would like to feel as generous and caring towards those that served me as hopefully they have felt towards me.

Oh. P.S. Although I did come from the "yuppie" generation. . .I am neither "neo-liberal" nor "pinko". And I don't eat "health food" either . So my thinking on this can not be put down to those. . . things.

(*) A nod to Rogov upon using these words. . .I believe he said quite the same thing recently.

Edited August 12, 2005 by Carrot Top (log)

[zilla369]

The guys I really want to tip are the ones in the kitchen. Let the waiter sneer at me all he wants. I want the bigger portion, the extra truffles, etc. on my plate. Since I go out to eat for the food, it makes me wonder what how the restaurant gets the kitchen to perform to such high standards without tipping.

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Thanks for that, Bux. In light of that comment, I'd like to relate a little scenario from earlier this week.

In addition to pastry chef/catering duties where I work, I'm also in charge of ordering, receiving and inventory. I recently implemented a change in our general goods supplier from Sysco to a smaller, regional family-owned food supplier. As a thank-you (not at my suggestion, but at the suggestion of the new supplier), they scheduled a regional company reps' dinner at our restaurant.

23 people attended (11 reps, their wives/husbands, and the owner of the company, who flew in from Michigan). The charge was $29 pp (don't laugh - this is Louisville, not NYC or Chicago or LA. They had appetizers, salad, their choice of CAB filet mignon, sea bass, or a pasta dish, and their choice of dessert), so the bill came to $667. Because the dinner was considered a catering event, there was an automatic 18% service charge on the meal. That's an additional $120, that the house splits with the servers (I'm not sure what the split is). Also because it was a catering event, the servers (two of them) clocked in under their catering pay scale ($10, same as me). That's the justification for the house keeping part (maybe most) of the service charge; the servers are working at three times their normal hourly wage.

I came to work at 8:30 that morning. When the party arrived at 6:30 PM, I greeted and schmoozed, answered questions about the meal they were about to

enjoy, then went and cleaned up the pastry kitchen; said my goodbyes to the party, and clocked out at 7 PM.

The next afternoon I asked the servers how the party went. They were very happy to report that the party went swimmingly, and that the host had paid the servers a 20% tip on the party total (after 18% service charge added).

Let's do the math:

On that day, I worked 10.5 hours at $10 an hour. Total compensation before tax:

$105 US.

On the same day, the servers worked 4 hours at $10 an hour. That's $40 US. Then they split a 20% tip on the food+service charge (one server's half would be $78.71) On top of that they each got some part of the service charge - admittedly I don't know how much, so let's leave that out.

So, I worked 10.5 hours, doing what I do, cooking, ordering, receiving, running up and down stairs to the pastry kitchen, hauling hot heavy things, for $105 pre-tax.

They each worked 4 hours, in an air-conditioned dining room (granted, with brief forays into a hot kitchen to pick up food), folded napkins, cut lemons, polished silverware and brought 3 courses to 23 people, for a pre-tax total of $118.71 each, plus whatever their cut of the 18% service charge is.

Keep in mind all three of us work without benefits of any kind - no paid vacation, no paid sick days, no health insurance, no retirement benefits, no uniform subsidy.

Is the kitchen fairly compensated compared to the FOH? You tell me.

[Carrot Top]

That time it sure wasn't, zilla.

These are things that managers need to focus in on and sort out, and often enough they just don't.

The business of feeding people wonderful things would not survive without the true love of cooks for making wonderful things. The money alone simply does not cut it, often enough.

[jbonne]

Wine markups are a part of good menu engineering.

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reasonable wine markups, yes. gouge-worthy wine markups are bad policy and bad form.

that said, Kim WB, rather than dock the staff a tip for the unreasonable markup, why not just refuse to order that bottle? as a general rule nowadays, i won't order any bottle more than 100 percent over retail -- let folks sit on their own damn overmarked bottle stock, as at least a small punishment for their greed. i'll be happy to drink the bargains instead.

[jbonne]

The guys I really want to tip are the ones in the kitchen. Let the waiter sneer at me all he wants. I want the bigger portion, the extra truffles, etc. on my plate. Since I go out to eat for the food, it makes me wonder what how the restaurant gets the kitchen to perform to such high standards without tipping.

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sounds like the setup at Per Se should do this very thing.

while i completely agree that BOH staff get regularly screwed, i do wonder: is a service fee the way to fix that?

[rich]

The guys I really want to tip are the ones in the kitchen. Let the waiter sneer at me all he wants. I want the bigger portion, the extra truffles, etc. on my plate. Since I go out to eat for the food, it makes me wonder what how the restaurant gets the kitchen to perform to such high standards without tipping.

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sounds like the setup at Per Se should do this very thing.

while i completely agree that BOH staff get regularly screwed, i do wonder: is a service fee the way to fix that?

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What will be interesting to watch is who takes the biggest hit with this system. On face, it appears the wait staff. But it depends what happens to the money (if any) that's left above the 20%. Will that be pooled? If you hand one person a $20, $50, does that go into the pool?

What Keller has hit upon is a way to give his BOH people a raise without anything coming out of his pocket and based on the ability for the wait staff to "upsell" the wine list because that's where the big money is going to be. I want to be a fly on the wall the first time that $500 wine becomes an automatic $600 or that special bottle of champagne goes from $400 to $480; and then when the bill arrives and right there in black and white for the person to read is that $723.47 service charge. It should be great theater! But hey, if you're dining at that level, that kind of tip is just "chump" change anyway. And the chumps will be there in force to collect their winnings.

I hear the first reservation has Bill Gates, Alex Rodriguez, Warren Buffet and Oprah Winfrey at the same table. They use that kind of money as toilet paper.

Of course, he could have given the BOH people a raise and then just marked up his prices, but this way he saves money on all the things that have mentioned in earlier posts. And we wouldn't have had nearly as much fun during the last few days.

[slkinsey]

Does anyone think that this policy will make some people think twice about ordering a more expensive bottle? there are many diners who are well aware of the retail cost of a wine, and understand that markups are part of the drill..but I know that when the markup is out of control, my husband will rebel. He always says he know's he's getting f*cked, but some markups are so insulting, he feels like he's pulled down his pants an bent over to make it easier for them.

I think the "20% on wine" issue is a bit of a red herring. Any restaurant that does significant business in wines costing North of a hundred bucks a bottle is doing business mostly with people who can afford whatever they want and won't care about the added 20% on the wine. Indeed, people who regularly spend North of 100 bucks on a bottle of wine in restaurants are fully aware and comfortable with the fact that the bottle of wine selling at Restaurant A for 200 bucks may sell at Restaurant B for only $150 due to a variety of factors too complicated to go into in this thread (but suffice it to say that it's not necessarily the case that Restaurant A is gouging customers and making a much higher profit on the wine compared to Restaurant B). All this is to say that, while an accross-the-board 20% service charge may make you and me less likely to buy a $200 bottle of wine, it won't affect their sales of $200 wines one bit. The fact is that the vast majority of the customer base at a place like Per Se or ADNY is comprised of people who do not have to save up for the visit.

I might as well also mention that people who think they know "when the markup is out of control" usually have very little real understanding of the costs involved in acquiring wines and maintaining a wine program, and also have very little real understanding of the extent to which everything else they pay for in restaurants is marked up. You want to talk about a markup? How about Lupa's twelve dollar plate of spaghetti aglio a olio? That's about a 1200% markup.

I want to be a fly on the wall the first time that $500 wine becomes an automatic $600 or that special bottle of champagne goes from $400 to $480; and then when the bill arrives and right there in black and white for the person to read is that $723.47 service charge.

Apparently this has been a huge problem for Keller at The French Laundry -- what with the waitstaff and customers leaving in droves.

[ingridsf]

As always, I will be representing the lower-income, cheap-friends contingent. You know, the Unfrozen Cavewoman Diners. Sophistimicated!

Granted, this thread is ostensibly about Per Se, but it's developed into a discussion about tipping vs. wages. Thing is, it wasn't all that long ago that I learrned that you don't calculate the tip based on the bottom-line total on the bill. Wine is calculated separately? Who knew? You don't want to include the sales tax? D'oh!

I didn't have the, uh, upbringing where this kind of thing was taught. Don't think I'm the only one. Yet SOMEONE'S LIVELIHOOD is in my hands. That is not a good system because...it's not a system. There are no real checks and balances to protect the worker.