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[JohnL]

Just got my July issue of Food and Wine featuring "Superstar chefs".

There is a feature on " Best new restaurant wine lists"

wherein a number of "new" restaurant sommeliers recap their philosophy

and note a few food and wine pairings as examples.

I thought most were interesting in both wine selections and food pairings as

well as an emphasis on value.

One stood out:

for Stripped Bass in Philadelphia (I have had many meals under the old regime there all

wonderful and have heard very good things about the new ownership)

sommelier Lauren Bernardini notes she is shifting the list toward "funky wines that offer great value." then singles out Basa '03 (Spain) at $44 a bottle...

Basa is a funky white that does offer good value--but evidently not at Stripped Bass!

It retails for $8-$10 a bottle in the NY area.

I'm sure that Lauren does have some bargains on her list but she selected a really bad example especially for a national magazine.

[slbunge]

...sommelier Lauren Bernardini notes she is shifting the list toward "funky wines that offer great value." then singles out Basa '03 (Spain) at $44 a bottle...

Basa is a funky white that does offer good value--but evidently not at Stripped Bass!

It retails for $8-$10 a bottle in the NY area.

I'm sure that Lauren does have some bargains on her list but she selected a really bad example especially for a national magazine.

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I noticed that as well. Basa is a very good value at NY wine shops that carry it but I wouldn't pay that price for it in a restaurant. Perhaps $25.

[JohnL]

Yeah-$25 a bottle is about right.

It is a good wine--wholesale must be around $5-$7 a bottle or less!!!!

(love that three tired system we have)ps

That's Striped Bass not Stripped Bass as I referenced in my post.

Though my poor typing has led to a good idea for a restaurant extension next door featuring lower prices!!! (a la Nobu next door).

[David McDuff]

Not to totally defend this admittedly high pricing but there are a few factors at work here that bear discussion.

- There is no "wholesale" liquor purchasing in the state of Pennsylvania; all wine, liquor and beer must be purchased through the state controlled system -- yes, by restaurants too. The price restaurants pay is just barely below full retail and they must pick up the beverages themselves; the state does not make deliveries.

- I must admit I have no idea what this wine retails for in PA but it is very likely to be a good bit more expensive than in the NY market. Aside from the discounted "chairman's selection" and other clear-out programs, PA prices tend to be on the high side.

- For a fairly high-end restaurant such as the Striped Bass, 3x markup is not at all atypical, especially at the lower price ranges. Selling a $10 retail bottle for $30-40 helps offset the overall, up-front investment in building and maintaining a decent cellar. With this pricing at the low end, one should ideally expect the markup percentage to be lower at the high end.

- It sounds unfair to the end-consumer but this scale of markup can be defended, at least in part, by remembering that this profit center helps cover the expenses of a full-time sommelier, good stemware, trained service, proper wine storage, the development of a sizeable, well-rounded wine list, etc.

All of that said, this is only one of the many reasons that I love the wealth of BYO restaurants in Philadelphia.

[JohnL]

You make some very good and valid points.

I am very familiar with Philadelphia and dine there frequently.

(it is a great food town)

Even with the state wine laws --there are many well priced wine lists.

Striped Bass has always, in my opinion, had a list priced on the high side.

So in the case of the Basa--it is possible that $44 is somehow justifiable--I would still

have a hard time forking over that much for that wine. Regardless

there are better values on that list--I would hope--again I have not been there in a while.

[mrbigjas]

- I must admit I have no idea what this wine retails for in PA but it is very likely to be a good bit more expensive than in the NY market.  Aside from the discounted "chairman's selection" and other clear-out programs, PA prices tend to be on the high side.

basa '03, $10.99 according to their website

[CherieV]

Being a wine supplier in Pa and previously a Sommelier at the Four Seasons I need to comment. Phila mark-ups in high end restaurants are no more than any other high end restaurants in open states.

Our FOB+freight+distributor mark-up+delivery+PLCB 30% mark-up+Excise tax of 18%+sales tax of 6%, then round up= Licensee Price.

This is where we start, at least double of an open market. Then the restaurant marks it up from there to make their cost.

Any questions?

[JohnL]

Being a wine supplier in Pa and previously a Sommelier at the Four Seasons I need to comment.  Phila mark-ups in high end restaurants are no more than any other high end restaurants in open states. 

Our FOB+freight+distributor mark-up+delivery+PLCB 30% mark-up+Excise tax of 18%+sales tax of 6%, then round up= Licensee Price. 

This is where we start, at least double of an open market.  Then the restaurant marks it up from there to make their cost. 

Any questions?

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I love this site!

Thanks Cherie.

Could you elaborate a bit on "open state" etc.

also any opinion or comments on restaurant wine lists/markups etc.

It is very interesting and informative to hear from a professional!!!

[CherieV]

Being a wine supplier in Pa and previously a Sommelier at the Four Seasons I need to comment.  Phila mark-ups in high end restaurants are no more than any other high end restaurants in open states. 

Our FOB+freight+distributor mark-up+delivery+PLCB 30% mark-up+Excise tax of 18%+sales tax of 6%, then round up= Licensee Price. 

This is where we start, at least double of an open market.  Then the restaurant marks it up from there to make their cost. 

Any questions?

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I love this site!

Thanks Cherie.

Could you elaborate a bit on "open state" etc.

also any opinion or comments on restaurant wine lists/markups etc.

It is very interesting and informative to hear from a professional!!!

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Ok John, I'll try the short version....

Open state vs controlled state. Pa is a controlled state meaning the state of Pa or the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board (PLCB) decides what is sold, where it is sold, when it is sold, how it is marketed, and price point, taxes, ect on all spirits and wine sold in the state. Beer is privately owned and seperate stores and licenses exist. All wine and spirit stores in Pa are state run and function as one unit. Jonathan Newman is the chairman of the PLCB and decides with his board what will be carried ect. They buy for all stores as one unit. We (suppliers and distributors) work together with the PLCB to present new products and ideas.

The licensee (restaurants/bars) orders all their wine and spirits through the State Stores. They then pay the state for their items and pick them up themselves as needed. If they are found buying spirits or wine from other states they are fined and or lose their license to sell alcohol in the state. The price is what it is and mark-up in high end restaurants are usually 1 1/2 times the retail price.

In open states, stores are privately owned and operated and the prices reflect that market. I work in NJ as well as Pa. NJ is open and my price in Pa is generally 2x more for Special Liquor Orders (SLO) and some listed items then they are in NJ. However, the Chairman has put together a program for fine wines to be offered at huge discounts called The Chairmans Selections. They indeed are great bargins! This exsists because the Chairman is able to leverage his buying power to negociate a lower price of purchase directly from the wineries.

Well I'm out of breath with my short version.....so let me know if you have any other questions.

[mike volker]

Can't remember the last time I saw 1 1/2 times retail markup at any high end restaurant. Usually we are seeing 3 to 4 times markup.

Best,

Mike

[Brad Ballinger]

My very limited experience with Philadelphia restaurants (haven't dined in any other Pennsylvania city) was one of sticker shock at the prices at Striped Bass, Brasserie Perrier, and Rogue. This was several years ago, though. But during that visit, I also enjoyed fine meals at wonderful BYO places.

While 3-4 times markups are not wholly uncommon, you will see variation in markups among both high end and not so high end restaurants. I've seen high end restaurants with incredibly attractive pricing and hash houses with absurdly high pricing.

I wouldn't pay $44 for a bottle of Basa Rueda Blanco.

It should come as no surprise that restaurant wine pricing gets a fair amount of play in this and other internet wine discussion forums. One fairly involved thread from this forum can be found here.

[shacke]

Being a wine supplier in Pa and previously a Sommelier at the Four Seasons I need to comment.  Phila mark-ups in high end restaurants are no more than any other high end restaurants in open states. 

Our FOB+freight+distributor mark-up+delivery+PLCB 30% mark-up+Excise tax of 18%+sales tax of 6%, then round up= Licensee Price. 

This is where we start, at least double of an open market.  Then the restaurant marks it up from there to make their cost. 

Any questions?

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You are presumably not trying to tell us that many PA restaurants arent making a killing on the wine mark ups. High end or not, many places' markups seem unconscionable (Starr, Lacroix.....) and thats not including a $14 martini at Barclay Prime. I have no sympathy for gougers. Granted thats certainly not confined to PA!

Evan

[JohnL]

This can be a source of great frustration for wine lovers!

I understand that restuarant wine service costs them overhead.

The cost of the wine of course and glasses, and staff, and storage etc. And wine is a profit center for restaurants.

That said--what is fair?

I believe that the goal of a restaurant wine list is to sell wine.

That is restaurants should do everything within reason to encourage people to order wine!

The market is a broad one.

For example wine lovers are more apt to spend money on food and wine--that is they are most apt to order say an aperitif, a bottle of white and/or red with their meal and an after dinner drink.

For these people, a restuarant needs to make this fun and rewarding. That is an interesting selection of wines, half bottles, good quality of wines by the glass (especially sweet wines, ports etc), decent glasses, and a deferential service staff approach.

People who do not, as a matter of course, order wine by the bottle--should and can be encouraged to do so via: shortened lists with flavor profiles or suggested food pairings noted. Half bottles and wines by the glass. The policy of offering a reluctant diner a taste of a wine to assure them before they actually buy the wine is good!

For both groups a pleasant experience with wine service will bring them back!

In fact-there are a few places where I find the food a bit lacking but the wine list and service is such that I return.

Restaurants should look to increase volume sales of wine to make their profit and not look so much at pricing to do it!

[CherieV]

Being a wine supplier in Pa and previously a Sommelier at the Four Seasons I need to comment.  Phila mark-ups in high end restaurants are no more than any other high end restaurants in open states. 

Our FOB+freight+distributor mark-up+delivery+PLCB 30% mark-up+Excise tax of 18%+sales tax of 6%, then round up= Licensee Price. 

This is where we start, at least double of an open market.  Then the restaurant marks it up from there to make their cost. 

Any questions?

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You are presumably not trying to tell us that many PA restaurants arent making a killing on the wine mark ups. High end or not, many places' markups seem unconscionable (Starr, Lacroix.....) and thats not including a $14 martini at Barclay Prime. I have no sympathy for gougers. Granted thats certainly not confined to PA!

Evan

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Evan,

Sure restaurants make a killing on wine and spirits. They are on food too. Would you pay $14 for a martini in NYC? I know I have many times in high end spots. My point is that the mark-ups here in Phila high end restaurants are no more than anywhere else. The only difference is we start with a higher price before the mark-up. They charge what they charge because then can. Reservations are hard to come-by none-the-less.

[CherieV]

Can't remember the last time I saw 1 1/2 times retail markup at any high end restaurant. Usually we are seeing 3 to 4 times markup.

Best,

Mike

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True, however I was using the Basa as an example assuming Striped Bass purchased the bottle for closer to $20 which I believe the did. Then $44 would be 1 1/2 X mark-up and a good bargin at a high-end Philadelphia restaurant.

[mike volker]

Must be the new math. When I was in school 20 x 1.5 = 30.

Best,

Mike

[Brad Ballinger]

Must be the new math. When I was in school 20 x 1.5 = 30.

Best,

Mike

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Yes, Mike, the math is correct. And 150% of the purchase price in this instance would be $30. But I believe Cheri's intention in defining markup was 100% to 150% more than the purchase price, which would put the range at $40-$50.

[JohnL]

I have dined in Philadelphia quite a bit (though not recently).

I do not recall the majority of wine lists I encountered as being priced too high.

High side yes but not to the point of gouging.

I agree that food is often marked up a lot:

for eg: that bowl of pasta (no truffles!) may be $15 with an actual cost of a dollar or so. However the veal chop at $25 may have cost the place $20. We can do this forever.

Fact is --there are a lot of factors in pricing food and wine. A scallop could be a dollar wholesale but if it is prepared with some black truffle and a sauce in a dish created by Thomas Keller then what is a "fair" price?

Also people in PA may be used to higher prices having been conditioned to them because of the state laws!

By the way--I checked out the web site for Striped bass--the wine list is there but no prices. No prices for the food either--went to a couple of Starr's (owner) other restaurant web sites-same thing no pricces listed for food or wine.

I find that kind of annoying.

[CherieV]

Must be the new math. When I was in school 20 x 1.5 = 30.

Best,

Mike

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Yes, Mike, the math is correct. And 150% of the purchase price in this instance would be $30. But I believe Cheri's intention in defining markup was 100% to 150% more than the purchase price, which would put the range at $40-$50.

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Thank you for the clarification. I'm talking in restaurant terms.

[JohnL]

CherieV:

Could a restaurant in PA buy wine from outside the state say at an auction in NY or Chicago and then put that wine on its list?

[CherieV]

CherieV:

Could a restaurant in PA buy wine from outside the state say at an auction in NY or Chicago and then put that wine on its list?

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Not without heafty fines from the PLCB and a possible loss of lisence.

This is why no restaurant in Pa has been able to obtain the Wine Spectator Grand Award. Buying outside the state system is a big no no be it auction or whatever. We in Pa are limited in our ability to buy older vintages of prized wines.

[Yannii]

in response to the original post, I believe striped bass' wine list is, in general, overpriced and the '03 Basa is actually an excellent example of that (and possibly how inaccurate that magazine's award system can be) i mean, it's pretty simple, it's purchased for $11, and then resold for $44! having worked in philadelphia restaurants for a long time, i can tell you the extra costs (delivery, tax, minimal wholesale discount, etc...) are not quite as bad as earlier portrayed in this thread. and if SB wanted to, they could clearly offer that wine for $33 and still easily maintain industry standard liquor cost ratios. but they offer it for $44 because they are SB, a high-end destination restaurant, that thinks that the people who go there (tourists, business accounts, special ocassioners) don't care about the extra $10. guess what? they are wrong. BYOBs are more popular than ever in philly, and now the new SB has destroyed what used to be a good bar business to the point that it is now forced to offer free raw bar happy hour promotions and such in order to get people to drink there. alright, sorry for indignant tone, but some of these awards and press are so bogus, ya' know? ps, a descent martini at barclay prime is more like $20, ridiculous. even craig leban, our esteemed philadelphia inquirer food critic, has noted this fact.

pps, i'm a big fan of the flat rate mark up system ("fri. sat. sun." in philadelphia is a good example) where the customer simply pays $10 or $20 more than the cost of the bottle. why pay a given percentage? that seems to be a product of accounting work sheets rather then customer POV logic. I would understand if a reserve list had a higher mark up (storing/aging wine for long periods of time can be costly), but other than that, why should joe customer pay more mark-up for an expensive bottle of wine versus a cheap one. they use the same glass ware (usually) and the same training and all that nonsense right? it think a flat rate system (although i've never worked in that system) would encourage up-selling (heck if i'm going to pay a $20 mark up for wine service, why not get the good stuff, or whatever). alright enuff ranting for one night!

Edited June 10, 2005 by Yannii (log)

[sockii]

pps, i'm a big fan of the flat rate mark up system ("fri. sat. sun." in philadelphia is a good example) where the customer simply pays $10 or $20 more than the cost of the bottle.

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I'm a fan of this as well. I feel like I have a truer sense of the "real price" of the wine when the system is defined in that manner; if I order a bottle at $40 I know it's probably going to be quite decent quality to my tastes, vs. something that's just an $8-10 bottle that's marked up by some unknown percentage.

(I also love Fri Sat Sun's wine list for a reason mentioned above--the tasting note details provided with each wine and suggested pairings. I mean, I love wine but I am no expert of every vinyard and vintage out there, and I like having those little pointers there to help me make up my mind.)

And you know what? I was at Fri Sat Sun about a week ago, and despite the modest markup they have to be making a killing on their wine sales given how virtually every table had a bottle going. And in some cases, more than one. Keep prices reasonable and I think people will definitely order more...

[wkl]

Unless I'm mistaken Fri, Sat and Sun can offer their wines at such low prices because they own the building and have lower overhead than most restaurants in Philly.