Random Kosher Questions

[Pam R]

I'm always happy to answer any questions, as I know others are - I don't know if there are any general "random questions about kosher foods' but I could start one if you think it's a good idea. Or else I can answer questions in PMs - whatever you'd like 

A thread would be a great idea. Feel free to quote me if you want!

Thanks so much for being so available and forthcoming!

Marsha

Throughout my Passover blog, we had some interesting conversations about Kashrut. I know that there were many questions that people seemed almost hesitant to ask - don't be.

If anybody has any random questions about kosher food, cooking or anything related, please ask! I know that there are many threads that discuss specific topics, but I couldn't find any general Kosher threads.

I'm happy to answer what I can, and if i can't answer, I know there are many other members who are more than able.

[Gifted Gourmet]

One place to begin might be The CRC (Chicago Rabbinical Council) website

and possibly this :

kosher lists from the CRC

[Pam R]

See Marsha? I told you other members would be happy to answer questions as well... or in Melissa's case, point you in the right direction.

[Gifted Gourmet]

See Marsha?  I told you other members would be happy to answer questions as well... or in Melissa's case, point you in the right direction.

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actually Pam, point you in only one or two of the millions of directions available ...

[Pam R]

thanks...

[gus_tatory]

I'm always happy to answer any questions, as I know others are - I don't know if there are any general "random questions about kosher foods'...

Throughout my Passover blog, we had some interesting conversations about Kashrut.  I know that there were many questions that people seemed almost hesitant to ask - don't be.

...

If anybody has any random questions about kosher food, cooking or anything related, please ask!  I know that there are many threads that discuss specific topics, but I couldn't find any general Kosher threads.

...

I'm happy to answer what I can, and if i can't answer, I know there are many other members who are more than able.

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finally, a thread where i can ask forum members to answer my goyim questions re: feeding my kosher-keeping friends. what a relief.

--do some people tend to view mayonnaise as dairy or treyf? why is this, as there is no dairy in it?

--why are bagels ok for some, even though they are leavened, for shabat?

--is pita bread (unleavened?) kosher?

--how would you define pareve and treyf? i know "pareve" generally means safe, right? but "treyf" can even be something like picking a flower on shabat. or a roasting chicken with one wing missing, no?

all i want to achieve is a nice meal on friday night for observant friends... maybe in my kitchen it can't be done...

Edited June 2, 2005 by gus_tatory (log)

[Pam R]

finally, a thread where i can ask forum members to answer my goyim questions re: feeding my kosher-keeping friends. what a relief.

I/we will try!

--do some people tend to view mayonnaise as dairy or treyf? why is this, as there is no dairy in it?

I've never heard of this issue... but perhaps somebody else has. As long as the oils (and anything else you're putting in your mayo) are kosher, it isn't treif. And if there's no dairy, it's not dairy. Mayo on a turkey sandwich is fine. And what would a deli be without potato, tuna, egg and salmon salads?

--why are bagels ok for some, even though they are leavened, for shabat?

The unleavened bread thing only applies during passover. For Shabat we're not only allowed to eat begals, but for many people Shabat isn't shabbat without a Challah (egg bread)

--is pita bread (unleavened?) kosher?

Though pita wouldn't be considered unleavened (in the way that matzah is), it is kosher if it's baked in a kosher kitchen with kosher ingredients. What else would we eat out falafel in?

--how would you define pareve and treyf? i know "pareve" generally means safe, right? but "treyf" can even be something like picking a flower on shabat. or a roasting chicken with one wing missing, no?

Parve means neutral - or something that is neither milk nor meat. Pareve foods can be eaten with either. It includes fruit, vegetables, grains, eggs, oils.

Treyf (traif) means impure or forbidden. Foods (or food combos)that aren't allowed according to the laws of kashrut. Including, shellfish, pork, milk and meat.

The picking flowers on Shabbat and roasting a chicken with a missing wing are beyond my halachic abilities... I do know that 'utility' grade chickens/cornish, etc. are still considered kosher by many, though they tend to miss a wing or .... something.

all i want to achieve is a nice meal on friday night for observant friends... maybe in my kitchen it can't be done... 

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Make sure you find out just how observant they are. Will they eat food prepared in a non-kosher kitchen? The levels of observance vary greatly. I would eat dinner at your house, but I have cousins who wouldn't.

I think they are lucky friends though, to have a friend like you wants to learn about their needs and try to accommodate them.

Edited June 2, 2005 by Pam R (log)

[Gifted Gourmet]

the thread Non-treyf foods Jews just didn't eat

Mayonnaise was often a "misunderstood" food by Jews not so long ago. Because it was white in color, it was thought to have cream or milk in it. Now, of course, we know that it is made of oil and egg yolks with some flavorings. Actually, Rabbi Ribeye will have a more definitive answer no doubt when he returns from Crown Heights on his trip shortly.

[KatieLoeb]

Mayonnaise was often a "misunderstood" food by Jews not so long ago. Because it was white in color, it was thought to have cream or milk in it.

I always thought it was the quintessential "white bread Goyishe food", hence the relcutance to eat it.

And Gus, you're a good pal who'll go out on a limb for his observant friends. What a mensch!

[cakewalk]

I want to echo what the others have said: gus_tatory, I'm very impressed with your questions, and with the simple fact of you're asking them for the benefit of your friends and guests. You certainly are a mensch!

I think one thing it is necessary to understand with the whole kashrut business is that a lot of people restrict themselves from eating and doing certain things, even though there is no prohibition against it. There are a lot of different rabbis, and they can have a lot of dissenting opinions. And then there are people like me, who don't listen to rabbis and make our own decisions regarding what we will or won't eat. I guess that's a key concept here: deciding what we will or won't eat is not necessarily indicative of whether or not it is kosher. It is indicative of what we will or won't eat.

For example: asparagus. Oy. Don't get me started. But since you already have: asparagus is a vegetable. It is, ipso facto, kosher. Full stop. However, bugs (of any sort), are not kosher. So, there are some Jews who go through the following thought process: asparagus, because of how it grows and what it is, is very difficult, if not impossible, to clean of bugs. Bugs can get stuck in the tips, under the leaves, etc. I can never know if I have removed all the bugs. Therefore, I have decided I will not eat asparagus, because I might be eating bugs with it, and bugs are not kosher.

That thought process has its own logic, but the important thing to remember is this: it does not mean that asparagus is not kosher. It means that some people, some groups, have decided not to eat it. This is really a crucial thought to remember when trying to figure out what is and isn't okay to serve to people. You really have to ask them. (I gobble asparagus like there's no tomorrow.)

The picking a flower on Shabbat stuff: yes, that is one of the many things that is not permitted on Shabbat. The reasoning behind it is very complex, because it involves understanding a lot about the nature of Shabbat, what it is and what one is trying to achieve in "keeping" it. Very complex. But really, it is not food related. Except to say that if you're going to a religious person's home for a Shabbat meal, don't bring them anything you just picked off your trees or off your plants. And no flowers. (Putting them in water is also not allowed, but again, not related to food.)

You can roast (and even eat!!) a chicken with a missing wing. Goodness, we buy chicken parts, don't we? Those parts are all missing other parts of their bodies!! I think this is a misinterpretation (to say the least) of something else. When preparing animals for sacrifice in the days of the Temple, the animals had to be perfect. No marks, no missing parts, no imperfections of any sort were allowed in the animals sacrificed at the Temple. Somhow it seems that this has (mistakenly) trickled down to saying that you can't eat a chicken that is missing a wing. (I have to admit I've never heard that one before, so my explanation of where I think it came from may be wrong; maybe we really can't eat chickens that are missing wings. But I don't think so.) The other place this might come from is a mistaken understanding of the laws concerning glatt kosher meat, which I am much too tired to get into now (and you're probably much too bored to read right now.)

I hope that helps a little. And once again, thanks for the questions.

[Gifted Gourmet]

Picking up the gauntlet and carrying on since cakewalk's amazingly beautiful explanation of many aspects of kashrut (kosher), here is more detail on why meat may be either glatt or not ...

Jewish FAQ, a well written, easy to follow set of explanations ...

Some authorities require a post-mortem examination of the lungs of cattle, to determine whether the lungs are free from adhesions. If the lungs are free from such adhesions, the animal is deemed "glatt" (that is, "smooth").

Nota bene: cattle can be glatt or not but chickens are not involved in this issue ...

[Corinna Dunne]

How does Kosher salt differ from other salt?

I see it mentioned quite a bit on the Forum, but in Ireland, it is not a common item. I looked it up in Claudia Roden's Book of Jewish Food, but apart from discussing the religious significance of salt, she just alludes directly to the difference between English and French sea salt, and salt extracted from underground deposits.

This is an unusual and interesting thread.

[CaliPoutine]

is catfish traif as well? I always heard it was because its a bottom feeder.

I know this might sound weird too, but I was telling my spouse that I feel "cleaner" when I eat in a kosher restaurant. Maybe since she isnt Jewish and I am, she cant understand that. Last month we were in Ft. Lauderdale and I took her to a few kosher deli's( something small town Ontario is lacking).

I had matzaball soup( good balls, flavorless broth), and half a turkey pastrami( I added swiss cheese, I dont keep kosher obviously).

It was so good and I commented to Robin that I felt lighter and cleaner eating there and she just shook her head and asked me to elaborate and I really couldnt.

Does anyone understand this?

[Gifted Gourmet]

is catfish traif as well?  I always heard it was because its a bottom feeder.

Does anyone understand this?

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Yes, on the catfish ... more later ...

and as to "cleaner"? Many have this perception ... I personally think because of the care that is involved in handling kosher foods and their preparation, there is a conscious effort to be aware of aspects many others may not even think about ...

Perhaps a prime example might be the post above in this thread on asparagus and the tiny bugs which inhabit the leaves ...

with kosher meat, it has to do with the humane slaughter of the animals ... I think that personally the word might not be "clean" so much as "sensitive" and "aware" ... but that is just me ...

[Gifted Gourmet]

Re: catfish: not about being a bottom-feeder actually:

Catfish - (family Ictaluridae) lack scales entirely.

To check if a fish is kosher, one must ascertain that its scales could be properly removed.  Scales are attached on the side to the fish on that side of the scale which is closer to the head and are not attached on the other side of the scale which is closer to the tail. To remove the scales, one must grasp that side that is not attached and gently pluck it off from the side of the fish.  If removing the scale did not damage the skin, then the fish is kosher.

from Kashrut.com

[Pam R]

How does Kosher salt differ from other salt?

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When discussing salt, 'kosher' refers more to the size/shape of the salt than whether or not it is allowed in a kosher kitchen. For meat to be kosher, it must go through a salting process - to draw as much blood as possible from the flesh. 'Kosher' salt is a better size and shape, allowing it to draw more moisture out than table salt. As well, there are generally no additives in kosher salt - people who aren't able to consume iodine often look for kosher salt.

Almost all salt is kosher. I have heard of only a couple instances when a salt wasn't kosher - and that was due to other things being added to it.

Re: catfish: not about being a bottom-feeder actually:

Oh! I'm glad Cali asked this question, because I've often wondered about something myself. I have heard the bottom-feeder thing for years - and am not really sure about it. I checked your kosher fish link, and it didn't mention anything either. Is the issue with bottom-feeders that they are kosher, but 'dirty'? That's why my Baba kept live fish in her bathtub, changing the water for a few days - in an attempt to clean out the insides of the fish? Or am I completely off on this?

Funny thing about kosher fish - I live south of a couple of huge lakes. These lakes provided the large Kosher food processors with fish for their Gefilte Fish for years. Yet I wasn't able to buy any of it locally. When I used to cater in the most orthodox synagogue in the city, I was only allowed (by the rabbi) to bring in whole (head on, everything intact) Salmon - or prepackaged lox that had a kosher hechsher (symbol) on it. If you're buying fish and you're not sure if a fish is kosher, it's safest just to assume it's not.

[cakewalk]

How does Kosher salt differ from other salt?

I see it mentioned quite a bit on the Forum, but in Ireland, it is not a common item.  I looked it up in Claudia Roden's Book of Jewish Food, but apart from discussing the religious significance of salt, she just alludes directly to the difference between English and French sea salt, and salt extracted from underground deposits.

This is an unusual and interesting thread.

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Part of the process of making meat kosher (after it is ritually slaughtered) is salting it heavily so that the salt will soak up any excess blood. The salt (and the blood it soaked up) is then rinsed off. Kosher salt received that name because it is used in this process, not because there is anything inherently "kosher" about the salt itself. Kosher salt refers to salt that comes in larger pieces than, say, table salt, so it can absorb more blood more quickly. The name "kosher salt" just seems to have stuck.

[Pam R]

I think one thing it is necessary to understand with the whole kashrut business is that a lot of people restrict themselves from eating and doing certain things, even though there is no  prohibition against it. There are a lot of different rabbis, and they can have a lot of dissenting opinions. And then there are people like me, who don't listen to rabbis and make our own decisions regarding what we will or won't eat. I guess that's a key concept here: deciding what we will or won't eat is not necessarily indicative of whether or not it is kosher. It is indicative of what we will or won't eat.

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Cakewalk - great post.

Let me add just a few things that some of my local rabbinate have ruled out or restricted use of in the last couple of years:

raspberries

strawberries with the stem/leaves still attached. (they may not be served without removing the greens)

some fresh herbs

iceberg lettuce and cabbage cause no end of problems

broccoli

and more!

I also want to add that while eggs are kosher (and pareve), any egg that has a blood spot in it is not considered to be kosher. If I need to crack 12 eggs, they must be individually cracked into a small bowl, checked, and then added to the rest.

[Smithy]

Pam R, thanks for starting this thread. I know I had a lot of questions about kashrut during your blog, and I'm sure I'll come up with more as I read here.

[Gifted Gourmet]

Pam,

Please remember that catfish lack scales entirely and the rule is:

The Torah establishes two criteria to determine what are kosher fish. The fish must have fins and scales. The scales must be easily removable without damaging the skin. [Generally, scales on kosher fish are either thin, rounded and smooth-edged (cycloid) or narrow segments that are similar to teeth of a comb (ctenoid)].

from the O-U organization manual

[Gifted Gourmet]

Getting More Vegetables into the Kosher Kitchen

There is another problem with vegetables in the kosher kitchen. They must be very carefully washed and inspected to make sure that no bugs or worms lurk within. Nobody, of course, wants creepy-crawlies in the cabbage or kale, but for strict observers of kashruth (Jewish dietary laws), this can be a major problem.  Insects, except for grasshoppers and some locusts, are not kosher. In The Haimishe Kitchen, a Hasidic group in New York state, there are seven pages of procedures for finding and removing the unwanted wildlife. Some vegetables are more troublesome than others. Every tiny leaf of a Brussels sprout must be scrutinized.

[bloviatrix]

For example: asparagus.    Oy. Don't get me started. But since you already have: asparagus is a vegetable. It is, ipso facto, kosher. Full stop. However, bugs (of any sort), are not kosher. So, there are some Jews who go through the following thought process: asparagus, because of how it grows and what it is, is very difficult, if not impossible, to clean of bugs. Bugs can get stuck in the tips, under the leaves, etc. I can never know if I have removed all the bugs. Therefore, I have decided I will not eat asparagus, because I might be eating bugs with it, and bugs are not kosher.

That thought process has its own logic, but the important thing to remember is this: it does not mean that asparagus is not kosher. It means that some people, some groups, have decided not to eat it. This is really a crucial thought to remember when trying to figure out what is and isn't okay to serve to people. You really have to ask them. (I gobble asparagus like there's no tomorrow.)

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Actually, the standard operating procedure for asaparagus is just not to use the tips as the density of the buds makes it difficult to check them fully. It's easy to check the rest of the spear.

[cakewalk]

For example: asparagus.    Oy. Don't get me started. But since you already have: asparagus is a vegetable. It is, ipso facto, kosher. Full stop. However, bugs (of any sort), are not kosher. So, there are some Jews who go through the following thought process: asparagus, because of how it grows and what it is, is very difficult, if not impossible, to clean of bugs. Bugs can get stuck in the tips, under the leaves, etc. I can never know if I have removed all the bugs. Therefore, I have decided I will not eat asparagus, because I might be eating bugs with it, and bugs are not kosher.

That thought process has its own logic, but the important thing to remember is this: it does not mean that asparagus is not kosher. It means that some people, some groups, have decided not to eat it. This is really a crucial thought to remember when trying to figure out what is and isn't okay to serve to people. You really have to ask them. (I gobble asparagus like there's no tomorrow.)

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Actually, the standard operating procedure for asaparagus is just not to use the tips as the density of the buds makes it difficult to check them fully. It's easy to check the rest of the spear.

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But the same issue remains: standard operating procedure for whom? I know plenty of people who, unlike me, as for a rabbinical p'sak before doing things. And they eat asparagus. So I think that standard operating procedures are only standard within communities. They are not norms of Judaism altogether.

[Pam R]

But the same issue remains: standard operating procedure for whom? I know plenty of people who, unlike me, as for a rabbinical p'sak before doing things. And they eat asparagus. So I think that standard operating procedures are only standard within communities. They are not norms of Judaism altogether.

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This is a really good point - but I'm going to say that it's not even standard within a community - it could be standard for just a syangogue following a specific Rabbi. As somebody else said on my blog "2 Jews, 3 opinions".

There are obviously 'commandments' that are standard across the board. "an animal must have split hooves and chew it's cud" I don't know anybody who disagrees with this one. But for every commandment there are numerous translations, explanations and interpretations.

A couple of years ago, our local orthodox synagogue got a new Rabbi. The entire kitchen had to be re-kashered for him. Utensils and pots and pans were given away and new things had to be purchased - he wouldn't allow the microwaves to be kashered (which we've always been told we can do). In theory his operating procedures should have been the same as his predecessor - but they were anything but the same.

[gus_tatory]

I want to echo what the others have said: gus_tatory, I'm very impressed with your questions, and with the simple fact of you're asking them for the benefit of your friends and guests. You certainly are a mensch!

(blushes; has never been called a mensch before. thanks! it's just consideration...)

OK, so say i'm planning a dinner party, and i've gauged the degree of 'observancy' of my kosher-keeping friends. what are some of my first decisions, re: menu planning?

--i have to decide if it's a dairy or meat meal, because it can't be both. so if i make courgette-potato latkes w/ sour cream, there can be no meat in the meal?

--but i could maybe serve like a wine-poached salmon (oh wait: is wine kosher?)...

umm, got any tips on dinner party planning for kosher-keepers?