Genoise Troubleshooting

[blue_dolphin]

1 hour ago, Yoda said:

(Though I'm still not sure whether I should use the smooth or coarse flour as the main flour... I'm thinking I should have gone with the smooth one since the crumb was kind of crunchy here and there - similar texture to a pie)

 

What country are you in, @Yoda?  You might search for "cake flour substitute in @Yoda's country"

 

Google told me that in Italy: "For cookies, bars, cakes/cupcakes, biscuits, scones, or anything that needs a tender crumb, use Farina di grano tenero, 00"

And in Germany: "Type 405 is finest ground flour you will find in Germany. It has the highest starch content which makes it ideal for the baking of cupcakes and cakes where you want a finer crumb"

 

You might find something that will work for you.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Isn't genoise baked in a thin layer on a sheet pan or jellyroll pan?

 

[Yoda]

10 hours ago, blue_dolphin said:

 

What country are you in, @Yoda?  You might search for "cake flour substitute in @Yoda's country"

 

Google told me that in Italy: "For cookies, bars, cakes/cupcakes, biscuits, scones, or anything that needs a tender crumb, use Farina di grano tenero, 00"

And in Germany: "Type 405 is finest ground flour you will find in Germany. It has the highest starch content which makes it ideal for the baking of cupcakes and cakes where you want a finer crumb"

 

You might find something that will work for you.

I'm from Slovenia so the flours differentiate by type (400, 500, 800), the higher the number, the more whole grain it is.

And by soft and coarse - with soft flours being more appropriate for leavened doughs and coarser ones for cookies, crepes, pies, etc.(supposedly- that's what the instructions state :))

 

My flour was type 400, but I opted for the coarser mill instead of powdery like (like the 00 type in italian flours)

Going with the coarse one was the mistake probably, along with not diluting it with starch?

 

The thing is, I have a manitoba 00 flour which is veery soft and powdery, but it is meant for baking bread and so has 13% protein.

 

I think I will go with the AP flour and add to it some starch like others suggested.

 

Ap flours here have around 11% protein so it shoul work, hopefully

 

 

So you guys think it was the flour?

 

Edit:

Do you think the temperature was appropriate? 

 

(I'm always confused with baking, when the recipe says to bake at a certain temperature - is it meant to bake at that temperature with or without fan? .. And since I have the option of baking with fan on, should I lower the temperature of baking and vy how much. For this recipe though, I think the instructions were meant to bake with fan, since the instructed temperature was 165C. While I was looking qt a lot of other genoise recipes, they all said to bake at 180°C (so I'm guessing that was meant without the fan on?) 

Edited April 12 by Yoda
Asking about temperature settings (log)

[AAQuesada]

I always assume baking is with out a fan unless it is specified 

[Yoda]

On 10/10/2023 at 11:15 PM, Nn, M.D. said:

Working on my chocolate genoise recipe and running into an issue with my sponge. For reference, I am using an 8x4" aluminum cake pan. My genoise makes 3-4 layers. I baked my batter at 350˚F for 40 minutes, mostly based on visual cues.

As you can see, the top slice had underdone batter that I was able to remove like a tumor. There's underdone batter in both the top slice and middle slice. However, the periphery of the middle slice, and the entire bottom slice, are overdone and dry. Does anyone have a fix for this? Specifically:

- How to bake the sponge so that the bottom isn't overdone and the center isn't underdone

- Bonus if you can help me get a flat top so that I can salvage a 4th slice from this recipe

 

My recipe:

• 7 eggs (430g)
• 215g granulated sugar
• 43g cocoa powder
• 8g kosher salt
• 86g cornstarch
• 172g pastry flour
• 43g ghee, warmed
• 8g vanilla paste

 

1. Add eggs, sugar, cocoa, and salt to mixer bowl and heat over double boiler while constantly whisking. Heat until hot to the touch, then remove from heat and whisk on high until doubled/tripled in volume. (I wasn't able to reach ribbon stage, probably because of the amount of cocoa, so I will be reducing the amount in the future.)
2. Sift together cornstarch and flour, then fold into batter until nearly combined.
3. Add ½-1 cup batter to the ghee along with vanilla paste. Mix vigorously until combined and smooth. Gently fold this portion back into the whole cake batter.
4. Bake in preheated oven at 350˚ for 40 minutes.

 

[UPDATE]

 

Thank you for your suggestions! They were incredibly helpful, and because of your input, I was able to make a huge breakthrough.

Please ignore the tunneling...I was in a bit of a time crunch and should have been more thorough. My two changes were:

• I mixed my cocoa powder with just enough hot water to make it into a homogenous paste. Once my eggs and sugar were at ribbon stage, I took a portion and folded in my chocolate paste, then poured that mixture back into the batter while it was mixing at low speed. I let the mixer run until the mixture was homogenous, then folded in my dry ingredients and ghee/vanilla like normal.
• Reduced the oven temperature to 325˚F and baked the cake for 50 minutes.

Because of these changes, I got a sponge that was as moist on the top slice as it was on the bottom, however there was no underdone batter. The cake rose nicely and I was able to get 5 layers from i, which exceeded my expectations! Updated recipe below: 

 

My UPDATED recipe:

• 7 eggs (430g)
• 215g granulated sugar
• 43g cocoa powder
• 75g boiling water
• 8g kosher salt
• 86g cornstarch
• 172g pastry flour
• 43g ghee, warmed
• 8g vanilla paste

 

1. Add eggs, sugar, and salt to mixer bowl and heat over double boiler while constantly whisking. Heat until hot to the touch, then remove from heat and whisk on high until the mixture reaches ribbon stage, 5-6 minutes.
2. While the batter is mixing on high speed, dissolve the cocoa powder into boiling water and mix to a smooth paste.
3. Turn the mixer speed down to medium-low. Take ½-1 cup of the batter and fold in the chocolate paste. Gradually add the chocolate batter to the main batter and allow mixture to mix until homogenous.
4. Sift together cornstarch and flour, then fold into batter until nearly combined.
5. Add ½-1 cup batter to the ghee along with vanilla paste. Mix vigorously until combined and smooth. Gently fold this portion back into the whole cake batter.
6. Bake in preheated oven at 325˚ for 50 minutes.

I just noticed your post after my genoise topic was merged with this existing genoise troubleshooting topic.

 

By the looks of your pictures, it seems like I have a similar issue to yours (+ my bottom layer was more dense than upper layers).

Mine also sunk in the middle (this is my post). 

 

As I was reading your posts I think I understand the problem in your case was only you needed to fold in cocoa powder separately (mixed with water) and it turned out good?

 

I'm a bit confused by the temperature - you lowered it despite having a sunken middle?

I thought if a cake falls in the middle l, the temperature is probably too low?

 

In the end you baked at 325F for 50 min - is this without convection? I baked mine at same temperature but with the fan setting on

[gfron1]

Ha! Yeah, obviously fingers and brain were not connected with that response, so I'm glad folks sorted me out.

[Yoda]

Another day, another attempt..

 

This time I decided to go woth the Genoise au Chocolat from The Cake Bible. (I opted for new recipe because of failure at previous attempt + I didn't like the overwhelming taste and smell of honey...I wanted a chocolate genoise :))

 

I scaled all ingredients to fit a 6x3" pan (and used 6x4") instead of 9x2" as instructions required (because I don't have that size pan). I lined the pan with parchment on bottom and sides.

 

I also lowered the temperature to 325F (165C) with convection and baked around 32 min.

 

Now I'm thinking I should have gone for at least 35 or 40 min. But the smell indicated to me that it was done, and when I inserted the toothpict it came out clean, so I decided to not return it to the oven.

I think the center collapsed ever so slightly after a few seconds and after I gave it a gentle drop.

 

I flipped it over onto a rack and I was a bit clumsy and so had to really pull at the parchment paper to get it off the cake.

This is how it looked upside down - you can see a slight indentation... I guess I wont know how it turned out until I cut it.

 

 

I turned it back to the right side up after cca 8 min, and you can see the cake did collapse a bit..I just hope it's not terribly underbaked in the center🤞

 

 

Section pictures:

 

The bottom again was a bit more dense, the middle was soooo fluffy, so was the tip, but the top WAS a bit sunken in.

While this didn't turn out as I idealy would have wanted, I think I'm happy with the result. I've noticed the sides look a bit dark but they didn't develop a crust, so I'm not sure, is that only caramelized sugar?

What can I do to get a more beautiful top/ not sunken in (the toothpick was dry when I took out the cake)

 

I did use a realy wide bowl when folding in the flour - I think it might have been a bit too large and the cream deflated a bit more than I'd have liked - is this possible?

It wasnt teribly deflated though, so I was really, really hoping it wouldn't collapse this time.

I'm not even sure how much it rose while baking, if at all?? (Hard to remember since I used such a deep pan)

 

Will post additional pictures of the sections.

 

What do you think of this attempt?

 

Edit: I mesured the height because it looks a bit taller in the pictures. It's at 5 cm (cca 2"?)

Edited April 14 by Yoda
Added height of baked genoise, added section pictures (log)

[Nn, M.D.]

On 4/11/2024 at 11:47 AM, Yoda said:

Hi all 👋 

 

I made my forst genoise today (or at least attempt to).

 

I was following this recipe. Sice I only had a 18x7 cm pan, I increased all the ingredients by factor 1,4.

 

Ingredients:

217 g eggs

123 g sugar (regular, krustal, white)

14 g honey

84 g flour (not cake flour probably)

25 g starch

18 g cocoa powder

38 g butter (melted)

 

I followed the recipe precisely (only my butter was melted and waited at room temperature not at 40-50C like recommended in the video).

 

Firstly, my ribbons while beating egg, sugar and honey mixture were really priminent - is there a thing as overbeating the batter?

 

Secondly, I noticed my oven temp was 160°C (with fan on) instead on 165°C as recommended- this mistake I know i made - is 5°C dofference big enough to cause the genoise to nit rise at the middle?

 

And ine more thing - the very important one - here in Europe, we don't have names for flour as in America and maybe some other countries.

Here we have soft/smooth flour (like manitoba 00) and coarse flour that isn't ground that mich to a powder consistenci, but rather a tiny bit less.

I read that cake flour is supposed to have between 5 and 8 % protein.

 

I was choosing a flour for a long time..in the end I got the coarser flour and chose the one with least protein I could find. It has the folowing characteristics:

 

Fat: 1%

Carbohydrates: 72%

Protein: 9,8%

Fiber: 2,3%

 

Was the flour a bad choice? 

 

Here are some pictures of the genoise:

 

Batter when poured into the vake pan

 

Whilebaking in the oven (first 5 minutes)

 

After 30 min I checked on the genoise (the smell was hinting it was ready) and when i inserted a toothpick in the center it came out clean. So I removed it from the oven after 30 min.

This was the result

 

Here are pictures of sections:

 

Bottom section

Middle section

 

Top section

 

All the layers side by side (bottom left to top right)

 

Btw, the honey is very prominent in smell and taste (a bit too honey-y. I used chesnut honey).

The bottom section was most dense and probably wouldn't break easily (not as spongey). The middle one was very light and not dense at all - it had the most pleasant consistency and structure in my opinion.

 

Plese share your opinions with me - where did I go wrong?

 

 

So I've been toying around with some recipes, and I think one of the things that made a bigger difference than I expected was temperature. And I don't mean like big changes, but very small variations.

 

I was doing a regular genoise in my 8x4" pan and had started it out at at 335F for a bake time of around 35 min. Around 18-19 min, I go to check on the rise and see that the center is starting to sink. I decided to bump the temperature up to 345F at min 19, and let it bake for another 15-18 min. What had been a sinking center started to rise quite nicely after the first 5 or so minutes, and after I took the cake out and cooled it, I cut it open and saw that the top of the cake had a nice light texture and soft crumb. More surprising was how much better the top was than the bottom third of the cake, which had a close texture with a tight crumb and was just a bit denser.

 

I think there may be something special about the rate of rise for a genoise, which is directly correlated to the moisture released during baking. My theory is that if it's too slow, especially for a cake baked in one tall pan rather than split between pans, the crumb at the bottom doesn't set fast enough to release all the moisture in the batter, so the cake crumb sets with a close texture rather than an open one. As the cake keeps baking, that moisture slowly rises to the top, which prevents the top of the cake from releasing its moisture, so it never develops a crumb and just collapses. 

 

The balance that is tough to hit is baking the cake at a high enough temperature to encourage vigorous moisture release and a nice rise, but at a low enough temperature that you don't risk drying the cake out, which is a dreaded outcome for an already low moisture cake. I would like to test one final experiment: the difference between baking a cake at 335F for 15 min and then 345F for another 15-20 vs. baking a cake at 340F for 30-35 min. I will post those results here when I do.

[Nn, M.D.]

On 7/8/2024 at 11:11 AM, Nn, M.D. said:

The balance that is tough to hit is baking the cake at a high enough temperature to encourage vigorous moisture release and a nice rise, but at a low enough temperature that you don't risk drying the cake out, which is a dreaded outcome for an already low moisture cake. I would like to test one final experiment: the difference between baking a cake at 335F for 15 min and then 345F for another 15-20 vs. baking a cake at 340F for 30-35 min. I will post those results here when I do.

 

Ok so after a busy morning, I have the results. Keep in mind that for both cakes I used the exact same recipe and same method for preparing and mixing together the ingredients:

The cake on the left of the picture was baked at 340F for 35 min. The cake on the right was baked at 335F for 15 minutes and then 345F for 20 minutes. As you can see, the 340F cake sank dramatically, while I got a nice rise from the 335/345F cake. Let's take a closer look at each one, starting with the 340F cake.

Quantitatively, the center of the cake sank to 4 cm when baking, while the batter I poured into the cake tin sat around 7-8 cm. As cakes cook from outside->in and bottom->top, the crumb on the bottom and sides of the cake is close but regular and set. Looking at the sunken part in the center, the crumb is more open but very irregular, and instead of a fluffy texture, it looks congealed and still damp. Qualitatively, this was surprisingly very dry cake. Even the sunken parts were somehow dry. I think this fits with my theory that the right bake is a moisture game, and at 340F the batter at the center bottom doesn't set up as fast as it should to support efficient moisture release, so you get accumulation of moisture at the top of the cake. That moisture prevents a proper crumb from setting up, so you get areas of batter separated by steam pockets, thus the irregular holes. So the result is that the cake rises on the outside and stalls out and puckers in the center, until about 15-20 minutes when it gets overwhelmed by moisture and just collapses.

Quantitatively, the center of the cake rose to 7.5 cm with a slight dome, compared to the 7 cm outer edge. The crumb is open and springy, and the cake slice is lighter than it appears. The crumb is overall fairly regular, and while it is a bit closer at the bottom than at the top, it may just be that the cake on the bottom is weighed down. Qualitatively, this was such a moist and tender cake! It has a nice bite and a very fine crumb, but there isn't any part of the cake that is dry. While this cake did pucker like the first cake (as evidenced by the bumpy top crust), about 5 minutes after I increased the temperature, the top started to dome up. What I find curious is how regular the crumb is despite the change in temperature halfway through the bake. Mechanistically I can't really figure out what it might be, but it's clear that this result is superior. I wonder if baking the whole time at 345F would give me a better result, but at this point I have found a technique that I like. And if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

 

Edited July 9 by Nn, M.D. (log)

[Nn, M.D.]

I'm also going to leave a tool here that I used to calculate my exact recipe, which would be based on the weight of 6 jumbo eggs for an 8x4" cake tin. The original recipe is intended for a 6" tin. To use the calculator, first crack your eggs and weigh them out. Then, enter the weight in grams into the green box and it should spit out the amount of the other ingredients that you need. My base recipe is adapted from this one by Hanbit Cho. "Syrup" can be any liquid sweetener. Honey was used in the original, and I have made this cake with both maple syrup and golden syrup with good results. "Flour" means cake flour, but I've used pastry flour which I prefer. Ghee has a richer butter flavor than butter, but feel free to use either. "H/H" is half and half, which I prefer to milk, but I think any liquid dairy could work. I added in about 5 mL almond extract and a ¼ teaspoon kosher salt, but add any flavorings you like. Appreciate any feedback.

 

genoise recipe calc.xlsx

Edited July 10 by Nn, M.D. (log)

[OlyveOyl]

    @Nn,  M.D. made this June 4 but did not take notes. There are two sites of interest regarding Genoise that I have used for ideas.  The first is “As Easy as Apple Pie”, I pretty much followed that formula.  The second is “Natasha’s Kitchen” which has a primer for sponge cakes.  One of the recommendations was to keep the cake in oven with door ajar for a few minutes to equalize temperature a bit to keep cake from sinking. Perhaps if you have the time, worth a look. I just weigh everything out based on egg weight, I’ve also added a little melted butter and milk to a small portion of batter and then folded that in to the main batter.

Edited July 10 by OlyveOyl (log)

[OlyveOyl]

@Nn, M.D.

Not technically  Genoise as these have baking powder in the batter.  The first is a 6” sponge with passionfruit curd and berries, this was the half of an egg, equally weights of everything else, self rising flour and a little oil..  The second is a Victoria sponge, 4 eggs, 225 g self rising flour, 225g sugar, 225 butter, vanilla. This cake was half of that recipe and besides the jam, I basted it with Amarena cherry juice and Luxardo. These have been as equally enjoyable as the Genoise and not quite as fickle with a similar profile .

Edited July 10 by OlyveOyl (log)