Genoise Troubleshooting

[blue_dolphin]

1 hour ago, Yoda said:

(Though I'm still not sure whether I should use the smooth or coarse flour as the main flour... I'm thinking I should have gone with the smooth one since the crumb was kind of crunchy here and there - similar texture to a pie)

 

What country are you in, @Yoda?  You might search for "cake flour substitute in @Yoda's country"

 

Google told me that in Italy: "For cookies, bars, cakes/cupcakes, biscuits, scones, or anything that needs a tender crumb, use Farina di grano tenero, 00"

And in Germany: "Type 405 is finest ground flour you will find in Germany. It has the highest starch content which makes it ideal for the baking of cupcakes and cakes where you want a finer crumb"

 

You might find something that will work for you.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Isn't genoise baked in a thin layer on a sheet pan or jellyroll pan?

 

[Yoda]

10 hours ago, blue_dolphin said:

 

What country are you in, @Yoda?  You might search for "cake flour substitute in @Yoda's country"

 

Google told me that in Italy: "For cookies, bars, cakes/cupcakes, biscuits, scones, or anything that needs a tender crumb, use Farina di grano tenero, 00"

And in Germany: "Type 405 is finest ground flour you will find in Germany. It has the highest starch content which makes it ideal for the baking of cupcakes and cakes where you want a finer crumb"

 

You might find something that will work for you.

I'm from Slovenia so the flours differentiate by type (400, 500, 800), the higher the number, the more whole grain it is.

And by soft and coarse - with soft flours being more appropriate for leavened doughs and coarser ones for cookies, crepes, pies, etc.(supposedly- that's what the instructions state :))

 

My flour was type 400, but I opted for the coarser mill instead of powdery like (like the 00 type in italian flours)

Going with the coarse one was the mistake probably, along with not diluting it with starch?

 

The thing is, I have a manitoba 00 flour which is veery soft and powdery, but it is meant for baking bread and so has 13% protein.

 

I think I will go with the AP flour and add to it some starch like others suggested.

 

Ap flours here have around 11% protein so it shoul work, hopefully

 

 

So you guys think it was the flour?

 

Edit:

Do you think the temperature was appropriate? 

 

(I'm always confused with baking, when the recipe says to bake at a certain temperature - is it meant to bake at that temperature with or without fan? .. And since I have the option of baking with fan on, should I lower the temperature of baking and vy how much. For this recipe though, I think the instructions were meant to bake with fan, since the instructed temperature was 165C. While I was looking qt a lot of other genoise recipes, they all said to bake at 180°C (so I'm guessing that was meant without the fan on?) 

Edited April 12 by Yoda
Asking about temperature settings (log)

[AAQuesada]

I always assume baking is with out a fan unless it is specified 

[Yoda]

On 10/10/2023 at 11:15 PM, Nn, M.D. said:

Working on my chocolate genoise recipe and running into an issue with my sponge. For reference, I am using an 8x4" aluminum cake pan. My genoise makes 3-4 layers. I baked my batter at 350˚F for 40 minutes, mostly based on visual cues.

As you can see, the top slice had underdone batter that I was able to remove like a tumor. There's underdone batter in both the top slice and middle slice. However, the periphery of the middle slice, and the entire bottom slice, are overdone and dry. Does anyone have a fix for this? Specifically:

- How to bake the sponge so that the bottom isn't overdone and the center isn't underdone

- Bonus if you can help me get a flat top so that I can salvage a 4th slice from this recipe

 

My recipe:

• 7 eggs (430g)
• 215g granulated sugar
• 43g cocoa powder
• 8g kosher salt
• 86g cornstarch
• 172g pastry flour
• 43g ghee, warmed
• 8g vanilla paste

 

1. Add eggs, sugar, cocoa, and salt to mixer bowl and heat over double boiler while constantly whisking. Heat until hot to the touch, then remove from heat and whisk on high until doubled/tripled in volume. (I wasn't able to reach ribbon stage, probably because of the amount of cocoa, so I will be reducing the amount in the future.)
2. Sift together cornstarch and flour, then fold into batter until nearly combined.
3. Add ½-1 cup batter to the ghee along with vanilla paste. Mix vigorously until combined and smooth. Gently fold this portion back into the whole cake batter.
4. Bake in preheated oven at 350˚ for 40 minutes.

 

[UPDATE]

 

Thank you for your suggestions! They were incredibly helpful, and because of your input, I was able to make a huge breakthrough.

Please ignore the tunneling...I was in a bit of a time crunch and should have been more thorough. My two changes were:

• I mixed my cocoa powder with just enough hot water to make it into a homogenous paste. Once my eggs and sugar were at ribbon stage, I took a portion and folded in my chocolate paste, then poured that mixture back into the batter while it was mixing at low speed. I let the mixer run until the mixture was homogenous, then folded in my dry ingredients and ghee/vanilla like normal.
• Reduced the oven temperature to 325˚F and baked the cake for 50 minutes.

Because of these changes, I got a sponge that was as moist on the top slice as it was on the bottom, however there was no underdone batter. The cake rose nicely and I was able to get 5 layers from i, which exceeded my expectations! Updated recipe below: 

 

My UPDATED recipe:

• 7 eggs (430g)
• 215g granulated sugar
• 43g cocoa powder
• 75g boiling water
• 8g kosher salt
• 86g cornstarch
• 172g pastry flour
• 43g ghee, warmed
• 8g vanilla paste

 

1. Add eggs, sugar, and salt to mixer bowl and heat over double boiler while constantly whisking. Heat until hot to the touch, then remove from heat and whisk on high until the mixture reaches ribbon stage, 5-6 minutes.
2. While the batter is mixing on high speed, dissolve the cocoa powder into boiling water and mix to a smooth paste.
3. Turn the mixer speed down to medium-low. Take ½-1 cup of the batter and fold in the chocolate paste. Gradually add the chocolate batter to the main batter and allow mixture to mix until homogenous.
4. Sift together cornstarch and flour, then fold into batter until nearly combined.
5. Add ½-1 cup batter to the ghee along with vanilla paste. Mix vigorously until combined and smooth. Gently fold this portion back into the whole cake batter.
6. Bake in preheated oven at 325˚ for 50 minutes.

I just noticed your post after my genoise topic was merged with this existing genoise troubleshooting topic.

 

By the looks of your pictures, it seems like I have a similar issue to yours (+ my bottom layer was more dense than upper layers).

Mine also sunk in the middle (this is my post). 

 

As I was reading your posts I think I understand the problem in your case was only you needed to fold in cocoa powder separately (mixed with water) and it turned out good?

 

I'm a bit confused by the temperature - you lowered it despite having a sunken middle?

I thought if a cake falls in the middle l, the temperature is probably too low?

 

In the end you baked at 325F for 50 min - is this without convection? I baked mine at same temperature but with the fan setting on

[gfron1]

Ha! Yeah, obviously fingers and brain were not connected with that response, so I'm glad folks sorted me out.

[Yoda]

Another day, another attempt..

 

This time I decided to go woth the Genoise au Chocolat from The Cake Bible. (I opted for new recipe because of failure at previous attempt + I didn't like the overwhelming taste and smell of honey...I wanted a chocolate genoise :))

 

I scaled all ingredients to fit a 6x3" pan (and used 6x4") instead of 9x2" as instructions required (because I don't have that size pan). I lined the pan with parchment on bottom and sides.

 

I also lowered the temperature to 325F (165C) with convection and baked around 32 min.

 

Now I'm thinking I should have gone for at least 35 or 40 min. But the smell indicated to me that it was done, and when I inserted the toothpict it came out clean, so I decided to not return it to the oven.

I think the center collapsed ever so slightly after a few seconds and after I gave it a gentle drop.

 

I flipped it over onto a rack and I was a bit clumsy and so had to really pull at the parchment paper to get it off the cake.

This is how it looked upside down - you can see a slight indentation... I guess I wont know how it turned out until I cut it.

 

 

I turned it back to the right side up after cca 8 min, and you can see the cake did collapse a bit..I just hope it's not terribly underbaked in the center🤞

 

 

Section pictures:

 

The bottom again was a bit more dense, the middle was soooo fluffy, so was the tip, but the top WAS a bit sunken in.

While this didn't turn out as I idealy would have wanted, I think I'm happy with the result. I've noticed the sides look a bit dark but they didn't develop a crust, so I'm not sure, is that only caramelized sugar?

What can I do to get a more beautiful top/ not sunken in (the toothpick was dry when I took out the cake)

 

I did use a realy wide bowl when folding in the flour - I think it might have been a bit too large and the cream deflated a bit more than I'd have liked - is this possible?

It wasnt teribly deflated though, so I was really, really hoping it wouldn't collapse this time.

I'm not even sure how much it rose while baking, if at all?? (Hard to remember since I used such a deep pan)

 

Will post additional pictures of the sections.

 

What do you think of this attempt?

 

Edit: I mesured the height because it looks a bit taller in the pictures. It's at 5 cm (cca 2"?)

Edited April 14 by Yoda
Added height of baked genoise, added section pictures (log)