Genoise Troubleshooting

[tekna]

I've been trying to make 6" genoise rounds, but have been having the same problem twice. At first I thought it was the recipe, so I switched from a cake flour/corn starch blend to all cake flour. But that didn't seem to be the problem. The cakes haven't been rising; the top 1/4" looks okay, but then the bottom 1/2" is completely dense and flat; it looks like it didn't rise at all. I did use the magi-cake strips both times; Rose Levy Beranbaum suggested using them in The Cake Bible. Also, I had four 6" pans on the same rack in a 350F oven. I did grease the pans, line with parchment circles and then greased and floured again.

Anybody have any ideas as to what's going on here???

[phlawless]

sounds like you're over folding or your oven temp is off...

[kthull]

Can you describe more of your process? I use Herme's recipe and have great results with it, but see many potential areas to deflate the batter if not careful. Also, his recipe uses AP flour.

[Ling]

I use Julia Child's genoise recipe, with AP flour. I've never had problems with it either. Is your leavening fresh?

[RuthWells]

I've been trying to make 6" genoise rounds, but have been having the same problem twice.  At first I thought it was the recipe, so I switched from a cake flour/corn starch blend to all cake flour.  But that didn't seem to be the problem.  The cakes haven't been rising; the top 1/4" looks okay, but then the bottom 1/2" is completely dense and flat; it looks like it didn't rise at all.  I did use the magi-cake strips both times; Rose Levy Beranbaum suggested using them in The Cake Bible.  Also, I had four 6" pans on the same rack in a 350F oven.  I did grease the pans, line with parchment circles and then greased and floured again. 

Anybody have any ideas as to what's going on here???

←

Is this the first time you've had trouble with genoise? My first guess is oven temp, second guess is overfolding. I'd suggest trying it again without the magi-strips -- seems to me that they are recommended for buttercakes that are chemically levened, and might not be appropriate for an egg-levened batter. I'm just guessing, as I've never used them myself.

I made genoise myself this week, 2 batches, using RLB's genoise classique recipe, which calls for equal parts cake flour and corn starch. I ran out of cornstarch after batch #1 and thus made batch #2 with all cake flour. I also managed to overfold batch #2 (it was getting late and I was getting punchy.........). Batch #1 rose beautifully high and evenly. Batch #2 rose less and was more dense. So, I'd suggest giving it another shot with a cake flour/cornstarch blend and very careful folding. Let us know how it goes!

[chefette]

shouldn't be leavening in a genoise - this cake is based on egg foam and does not use a chemical leavener

combine eggs and sugar in bowl and warm over hot water until about 100 degrees - (warm to touch)

using whisk - whip to ribbon (will increase in volume significantly, be white and when you lift the whisk out of the batter and pull it across a band of batter will drop across the surface and mound)

fold sifted flour in (usually in two additions)

then fold in your melted butter

butter and flour the pan - many also line base with parchment

bake at about 400 for 10-15 minutes

[chefette]

the recipe I like (for a 6") - not to imply that I actually 'like' genoise - not sure that is really possible - it is just a vehicle

3 eggs

75g sugar

75g cake flour

15g clarified butter

I see corn starch in many older cake recipes - what role does it play?

I have often wondered about that - anyone know?

Edited May 27, 2005 by chefette (log)

[tekna]

Thank you for everybody's replies!

I tried RLB's and Flo Braker's recipes. Both are essentially the same, except Flo's calls for all cake flour (it also seems similar to chefette's):

4 eggs

100 g cake flour (RLB's was 50 g cake flour & 50 g corn starch)

100 g sugar

28 g melted butter (RLB's was 36 g clarified)

4 g vanilla

I did the standard method (as chefette mentioned above), but I did fold a little bit of the batter into the melted butter. I did double the recipe and mixed it with my KA 5 qt. mixer. Does anybody think doubling the recipe was a bad idea??? If so, then how do people make genoise for wedding cakes--many, many small batches?

Does 350F sound low? Also, I did have four 6" round pans in the oven at the same time. I've had that many pans in the oven at the same time when I made butter cakes, and they came out fine.

I greased, lined with parchment, greased again and then floured the pans. And then I wrapped them with those magi-cake strips.

I've made genoise before, but in sheets and 8" rounds (without those magi-cake strips). Never had any problems before. Okay, a few lumps, but they always rose. I usually try to fold gently, and it didn't seem like I totally flattened the batter. But I'm not always the best judge on that!

My oven seems to be alright; I've baked other things after the first failed genoise and they came out fine.

Chefette, I read in another book that corn starch is used to make the cake's lighter. And it sounds like RuthWells' batches showed that. Also, I did notice that there were less lumps in RLB's version.

So I think I'll try again without the magi-cake strips. I'll mind the folding, and I'll double check my oven temp!

Thanks again, everybody! I really appreciate it.

[RuthWells]

shouldn't be leavening in a genoise - this cake is based on egg foam and does not use a chemical leavener

Yes, that was my point -- sorry if I was unclear!

[chefette]

you can make mega gigantic batches of genoise

doubling is definitely not an issue

need to ensure the eggs are really well whipped

gentle in folding in flour - best to sift it in if you have any doubts

do in two or three batches as necessary

adding some batter to the butter is the exact right thing to do - stir some batter in with the cooled butter then gently fold that into the main batter

I think 350 is too low

on an egg foam cake you need it to bake quickly - I would also ditch the sleeves - especially on such small pans

crank up the heat and the cakes should hopefully turn out much better - sound like they aren't baking evenly due to your overprotective measures and not enough heat to give them that last bit of ooomph they need to get a poof from the egg foam

genoise - or sponge - is just a stable dry cake base that can handle a bunch of soaking syrup and unobtrusively seperates fillings

Edited May 28, 2005 by chefette (log)

[pastrymama]

It seems to me you may not have mixed you butter mixture in well enough and that it was heavier and went to the bottom and formed the dense layer. If you are worring about deflating while you try to get it incorporated try using a whisk instead of a spatula.

[Ling]

shouldn't be leavening in a genoise - this cake is based on egg foam  and does not use a chemical leavener

←

oops--you're right. It's been years since I've made Julia Child's genoise, as it isn't my favourite cake to bake.

[Wendy DeBord]

Welcome to The eGullet Society For Arts & Letters Tekna!

I hope you try out some of the suggestions previously made. Everyone has mentioned and pointed out any and every thought I've thought of that could help you on this cake.

Genoise is not always an easy cake for people learning. I do find there to be slight differences in taste and handling in recipes published in baking books geared for a general mass market verses those geared toward professionals. In such case, I too reccomend Herme's recipe over Roses' and Flos'.

[tekna]

Welcome to The eGullet Society For Arts & Letters Tekna!

I hope you try out some of the suggestions previously made. Everyone has mentioned and pointed out any and every thought I've thought of that could help you on this cake.

Genoise is not always an easy cake for people learning. I do find there to be slight differences in taste and handling in recipes published in baking books geared for a general mass market verses those geared toward professionals. In such case, I too reccomend Herme's recipe over Roses' and Flos'.

←

Thanks for the welcome, Wendy!

I finally had another opportunity to try my hand at genoise again last weekend. I used the recipe in Desserts by Pierre Herme. It turned out alright, I think. At least it rose and baked all the way through. It wasn't super light though, and it was a little chewy. Is this the way it should be? I can't remember. I know I like the moistness, consistency and lightness of sponge cake and I always think a genoise should be like that as well.

Wendy, when you referred to Herme's genoise recipe, were you referring to the one in "Desserts" or the one in "La Patisserie"? The one in "La Patisserie" did not seem "classic" with the almond paste and an emulsifier.

I used the genoise in Herme's Carioca cake. It turned out pretty good!

Edited June 10, 2005 by tekna (log)

[Wendy DeBord]

It wasn't super light though, and it was a little chewy.  Is this the way it should be?  I can't remember.  I know I like the moistness, consistency and lightness of sponge cake and I always think a genoise should be like that as well.

Wendy, when you referred to Herme's genoise recipe, were you referring to the one in "Desserts" or the one in "La Patisserie"?  The one in "La Patisserie" did not seem "classic" with the almond paste and an emulsifier.

←

Geniose should not be moist or chewy. In Herme's professional book he uses almond paste in his geniose to make it a better tasting cake...........the almond paste imparts flavor and some moisture so it isn't as neutral tasting as one made with almond flour. You can omit the emulsifier with-out harm (I have).

His classic genoise recipe in Desserts works great. I like both recipes from him.

Are you folding some batter into your butter before you add it to your mixing bowl of batter? That really changes the consistancy of the butter, so when you add it to your bowl of batter it easily incoporates.

Also, I like using a whisk to fold in delicate batters verses a spatula. It doesn't seem to deflate your product as much as a spatula can.

[chefpeon]

genoise - or sponge - is just a stable dry cake base that can handle a bunch of soaking syrup and unobtrusively seperates fillings

Boy, you said it, chefette!

I rarely make genoise for that reason. I just hate putting energy into something that really isn't that great.

[SweetSide]

I'm trying to make a genoise at home and am having little success. I've made them before at school and get nice, light cakes but I'm creating craters now.

The formula calls for

4 eggs

100 grams sugar

1/2 tsp vanilla

100 grams cake flour, sifted

1/8 tsp salt

1T sugar

2T melted butter -- not hot

Combine 1st 2 ingredients over a double boiler and warm to 110F

Whip until thick ribbons and then add vanilla

Sift together flour, salt, and sugar and gently fold in to egg foam

Combine 1 cup of foam with butter and fold, then fold combination back into remaining foam.

I'm folding lightly and have a very airy batter. No streaks of flour showing, no pockets of butter goo.

I pan the batter, then have sat there watching the oven. Nice high rise and then poof -- craters in my pans.

Eggs are warm, butter is warm -- barely noticeable warmth when I stick my finger in.

Any ideas what I'm doing wrong?

[rickster]

Any idea how accurate/stable your oven temperature is? That seems to be the main variable between making them well at school and having problems at home.

[SweetSide]

Thanks, that was one of my guesses. I think the temp is at the high end but that it may cycle too low. But, I haven't been reading the thermometer as I sit there staring at the oven .

Any way to compensate for a wide cycle? I read once of starting the oven a little low and then gradually upping the temp to avoid the down cycle, but I don't have the specifics...

[chromedome]

If it is indeed a problem of your oven cycling incorrectly, you may want to invest in some thermal mass...unglazed tiles, brick, or even two or three cheap pizza "stones" stacked up together will retain enough heat to keep your oven temperature stable. Load up the bottom rack, allow your oven lots of time to heat up (like, say, an hour ahead of time...), and have at it. If that's what your problem is, this should fix it.

[SweetSide]

Thanks -- I'll try keeping a stone in there. Just got a nice one for Christmas for breads, but may as well put it to some additional use.

I did check the temp one more time -- with a different formula for genoise. One we did in school had more flour and sugar -- 30 grams of sugar and flour for each 50 grams of eggs. They still dipped slightly in the middle but didn't sink. The oven cycles by more than 25 degrees -- Oh the joys of watching a cake bake!

I also tried starting out the oven preheated to 325 and upping it to 350 as soon as I put the cakes in so I would get it at a good point in the cycle, hoping the cakes would have enough time to set.

Not sure if the formula or the shift in temp was the trick, but at least I have the layers that I need!

[K8memphis]

I have a digital thermostat on the oven itself here at home. Jeez if I didn't loose SEVENTY FIVE degrees making some cakes... I got the oven heated up 25 degrees too hot, opened the door, shoved in the cakes, quickly poured boiling water into the two water baths, shoved back the rack, closed the door, >>pant pant<< turned the oven off & then right back on to see the temp--lost 75 degrees--so I was still fifty degrees off so just opening the dang door can kill yah.

I need to put some stones in there too.

[SweetSide]

Just an update -- the second cake I tried, which worked, was reported as dry. Likely the additional flour and lack of butter.

So, back to the original formula and the pizza stone. It maddens me if things don't come out right! I've got a little OCD going on there...

The result -- golden, level, light, delicious, and not dry. No craters -- not even a dip in the center.

Now, what to do with it....

[kaneel]

I make genoises all the time and this same recipes failled me once.

Mixing the melted butter in the cake batter is crucial(sp?).

Another thing i learned is when i bake it in a sheet pan is very easy to overbake it.

Once you got it, it is the easiest cake to make and so versatile.

[SweetSide]

I make genoises all the time and this same recipes failled me once.

Mixing the melted butter in the cake batter is crucial(sp?).

Another thing i learned is when i bake it in a sheet pan is very easy to overbake it.

Once you got it, it is the easiest cake to make and so versatile.

←

Hmmm.... I was originally taught to whip the eggs and sugar, then fold in the flour, then mix a small portion of the resulting batter with the butter very well, then fold the butter portion into the final batter.

But... This time I had been reading something and mixed a small portion of the whipped eggs/sugar with the butter, folded that back into the eggs, then folded in the flour.

Is a difference made by the order? Could one of the problems have been that by doing the butter last, it wasn't as fully incorporated because I may not have seen the streaks as well and stopped folding too soon? It's a lot easier to see streaks of flour than streaks of buttery batter...

Hey, I'm anal(ytical) and like it to be "perfect every time"!

Any thoughts? (on the order part, not the anal"ytical" part )