FreshDirect and other NYC online grocers 2005

[Fat Guy]

When we started talking about FreshDirect, the online grocer, in 2002, the big question was: how long would it last. Now it seems the question is: does anybody go to the grocery store anymore? At some of the larger apartment buildings, especially the ones with large young-professional populations, I see a FreshDirect truck (or trucks) sitting outside making deliveries nearly all day every day. The FreshDirect trucks are now an entrenched part of our urban landscape. Of course, so were the trucks from UrbanFetch, but FreshDirect does seem to be thriving.

Recently, I started receiving circulars from an operation called Best Yet Market. This appears to be a small chain of Long Island supermarkets that is getting into the online ordering and delivery business. I believe the delivery area in Manhattan is currently the Upper East Side only, with expansion planned for the summer. The big thing this operation seems to be offering over FreshDirect is same day delivery (with FreshDirect, it's next day delivery). Like FreshDirect did, they're offering $25 off your first online order. http://www.bestyetmarket.com/

Are there other operations competing in this market? Is this the future of food shopping? Or will people always prefer to see, smell and feel their produce before buying?

[mjr_inthegardens]

peapod.com by stop and shop is available in parts of the tristate area

[jogoode]

Are there other operations competing in this market? Is this the future of food shopping? Or will people always prefer to see, smell and feel their produce before buying?

←

I sincerely hope for the latter. By buying from supermarkets, we are already so estranged from the food we eat that I refuse to take another step away. I've never ordered from Fresh Direct, but would like to hear what everyone who has ordered from them thinks about their produce. I wonder whether their business increases substantially during the winter, when lugging groceries home is such a chore that even I have considered engaging in mail-order shopping.

[donbert]

A couple years ago I lived in lower manhattan and didn't have any reasonable places to shop for groceries so I relied on Fresh Direct for about 6 months, but I haven't since I moved out to Park Slope and joined the <a href="http://www.foodcoop.com" target="_blank">Food Coop</a>. From what I remember I never got produce that was "bad" but most of the fruit wasn't ripe (even in their respective peak seasons) and it took a while to get used to ordering by weight rather than count/eye. At the time I considered using <a href="http://www.urbanorganic.com/" target="_blank">Urban Organic</a> for produce and using Fresh Direct for meats and packaged foods. The only reason I didn't end up using Urban Organic was because a friend of mine who had used it the previous year said that it took a lot of effort to finish all the fresh produce you'd get every week and he ended up having to can most of it towards the end of the summer. Also you don't get much say in what you get, which was good in that it forces you to cook seasonal things and try thing/recipes that you might normally have but bad in that if you want anything else you would end up going to a market anyways.

On a non-food related use for Fresh Direct, I know a few people who have throw large dinner parties and ordered everything from Fresh Direct just to get their boxes for moving. They're just about the perfect size for all the small stuff you need to pack.

[emmapeel]

FG, I'm so glad you started this thread. I have not yet used Fresh Direct, because when I try, I still want to see the product and direct the cuts (deli, butcher, cheese), or judge the produce. But I'm so tempted because it would be so easy to shop this way. I could just use the butcher, in my case it's Oppenheimer on Broadway, but their prices are far above Fairway, so I only use them occasionally. One night I compared my Fairway receipt to a Fresh Direct order to see the difference and Fairway was still cheaper (including delivery, but not by much, about $10). However, FD did not have all the products I usually buy.

I shop for one, so this is a consideration for me. Items like Parmigiano-Reggiano can only be purchased in 1/2 pound increments, (and $1.00 per lb. more than Fairway or Citarella) and that is just too much. What I have considered doing is, purchasing things from FD that don't much matter, like water ($0.20 per gallon above Fairway, and since I purchase it by the case (2), it is $2.40 more, furthermore, FD has a 1 case limit) or just things that are heavy. Regardless, I'm still doing my own shopping, and having it delivered. If I were terribly busy, I'm sure I would FD, as many people in my building are doing. People in my building also use Urban Organic. Donbert, you have it made with the Food Coop. It is really something.

Edited April 21, 2005 by emmapeel (log)

[iain]

I live in Williamsburg (3rd stop!) and face a dearth of decent supermarkets and produce. There is a green grocer with ok stuff, but it's often past it's prime and selection is limited. The local C-Town is sketchy but ok for canned goods. Meat...not so much. Plus, it's expensive.

FreshDirect's arrival in my neighborhood means access - at last - to a wide variety of produce and meat at a decent price. My wife and I find ourselves shopping from FD about once every week or two (usually two) and supplementing at the local stores.

I've never had problems with poor quality produce or meat, but I have had stuff sent to me that I'd never select on my own. I once received a cabbage the size of a basketball, for example. I have never seen one so big and, try as we might, my wife and I just couldn't get through it all. Other times I've had mismatched portions. Two fish fillets, for example, one much larger than the other - making even cooking difficult at best.

Overall, though, I'd be really bummed should they go under.

Edited April 21, 2005 by iain (log)

[Josh]

About two weeks ago, the NY Times ran an interesting piece on FreshDirect.

Seemingly eschewing the kamikaze business practices of the dot com bubble, FreshDirect seems to be taking it slow and steady, using an ultra-efficient back-end operation to saturate specific tested areas. Unlike the Kozmo and UrbanFetch price-war battle that ultimately drove both companies into the grave, you don't see FreshDirect giving away the store... And this will ultimately be the key to success. The Times article points out that the company appears to be a valued high-end service, achieving pretty high saturation in many luxury buildings. There's plenty of money to be made here for an efficient player. Will it replace brick-and-mortar grocery shopping? Of course not... But like delivery ala-Fairway, it's a good extension that serves the needs of busy urbanites and, as emmapeel pointed out above, those who don't want to schlep things like bottled water around.

Another factor to ponder: commercial rents. With commercial rents going up and already tight grocery margins getting even tighter, will online shopping be the way for grocers to deliver the widest range of quality goods to nyc's urbanites? I agree with jogoode and would personally opt for the in-person approach even if it means going out of my way, but I know many others who will quickly get used to such a service...

Sorry for taking this conversation in such a non-foodie business direction. I'm a former dot commie with a bit of a case of deja vu here...

[bloviatrix]

I have yet to try FD. Frankly, I have no interest to. I'm one of those people who actually like the process of food shopping. I buy a lot of produce and I want to look at each piece: pick it up, feel its heft, smell its aroma, etc. I don't trust anyone else to pick it out for me. And the little I know from friends who use the service is that the produce is less than outstanding. I have been told that the kosher meat available is pretty good (no one I know has bought the kosher fish).

FD has definitely made a dent though. It's amazing the sheer number of empty boxes I see in our trash room.

[johnder]

I have been using FD for about 2 years and overall I am very happy with it. I have been very skeptical about not having control over picking the items out and possibly be stuck with less than par ingredients. But those trepidations have passed.

I order on average once every 8 days for my wife and myself, each order fluctuating between 75 and $100. I have ordered the whole range of items, vegetables, cheese, fruits, meats, fish, even whole fish and can't recall when I have been unhappy with its quality.

Occasionally items will not be packed with the order, which averages out to about once ever 4th or 5th order. They will promptly credit your account with the missing item no questions asked. Of course if you desperately needed that item for a meal that day you could be screwed.

The other occasional problem is although they pack things very well, it can get jostled in transit. One time I had a box of grape tomatoes that opened and a few of them got crushed by a melon. I called them and they gave me a credit for the tomatoes and even gave me a credit for items that had tomato juice over them. (which I didn't ask for, they offered)

Their cheese selection is amazing, and got only better once Artisinal started offering its select cheeses. Meats and fish and really good and blow the doors off anything I can find in our neighborhood. (Park Slope) This is especially apparent when it comes to produce. Given what’s available in the local Korean market and what they offer it is really a no-brainer. They arrive ripe, healthy and definitely cheaper than the corner store.

Between the orders from FD and my weekly trips to the greenmarkets, that supplies 99% of our food. If you have trepidations about ordering FD, I suggest you put them aside and try at least one order. If you don't like it, don't order again. For the most part, it will probably be cheaper than buying stuff at your local supermarket.

[Fat Guy]

My two recent FreshDirect experiences were quite positive.

Normally, we buy all our groceries in person and we enjoy doing it. We also have several advantages over normal New Yorkers: we're both self-employed so we can make our schedules work out so as to allow us to shop at off-peak hours on weekdays; we have a car so we can shop for staples in New Jersey or Westchester and we can go to Fairway Uptown whenever we want; and it's my business to stay on top of what's in all the markets so the time and expense of gourmet exploration is, in part, professional research.

A couple of months ago, however, I had one of those times when a number of deadlines converge and I wind up working as hard as a writer as I ever did as a lawyer at a big firm. One of the things I had to do, in the middle of everything else, was test ten recipes for Cooking Light and, soon after, recreate those recipes for a photo shoot. And there just wasn't any time to do all that shopping. As I was totally freaking out, I took the dog out for a walk and noticed several of those FreshDirect boxes in the recycling area out front of the building. A few hours later (okay, I'm slow) it occurred to me that I could order all that stuff from FreshDirect.

So I did. Twice. Putting in the second order was particularly pleasurable, because a week after the first order all I had to do was click one thing and FreshDirect delivered all the exact same stuff as I had ordered the first time around. The delivery guy was courteous. And the prices were pretty good -- more than Fairway; less than most Manhattan supermarkets. Quality-wise, the level overall was quite good. There were strengths and weaknesses, as in every market, and they were not entirely what I would have assumed. Vegetables, in particular, were surprisingly good: things like mushrooms, zucchini, etc., were really nice. Fruit was not as good as if you picked it by hand. Meats were outstanding, I thought -- I've never gotten such nice short ribs at Fairway, and the chickens were terrific. It seems they are certainly working hard to overcome the handicap of not being able to allow people to hand-select their products (and one advantage they have is that a thousand old ladies aren't handling the produce in the bins every day). They are also incredibly gracious about returns/credits for unsatisfactory products, so you have to factor that in as part of the strategy.

[Cleo]

For about 10 years I lived 4 blocks away from Fairway on 74th. Even with all it's craziness, I always enjoyed shopping there.

Last fall, we sold our apartment and moved to Gramercy Park area and the one thing I was distraught over was leaving my beloved Fairway. I kept saying to my husband, "I'll just have to get in the car on Sunday mornings and drive to the Harlem Fairway".

We have totally mediocre supermarkets in this neighborhood, and that, in combination with the fact that I have a baby, has driven me to use Fresh Direct.

Well I'm addicted. I get deliveries once about every week or 10 days. As Johnder said, occasionally items are missing or damaged. But their customer service with regard to that is amazing. One time I got a dozen eggs and 3 or 4 were cracked. I called to tell them, not because I was looking for a credit, but because I just wanted them to know that there was a problem. They gave me credit for the whole dozen.

Today, I got a monstrous delivery with all the things that I need for my seder this weekend. One bottle of soda was missing, but they gave me an extra dozen eggs. These little things are not enough to annoy me at all.

The thought of going to the crappy supermarkets in my 'hood and lugging bags home is revolting. Fresh Direct doesn't have everything (but they have mostly everything), so I still need to go occasionally, and I have grown to hate it.

Edited April 22, 2005 by Cleo (log)

[Dryden]

For the record, in the Gramercy Park area, Garden of Eden is excellent and Whole Foods isn't half bad. Plus the Greenmarket...

[JosephB]

I plan to try Fresh Direct for the first time this summer when they begin delivering to the Hamptons. When we're out there on busy weekends, I want to save my market time for liesurely visits to the chicken farm, produce farmstands, and local fish purveyors. I hope it works out for us.

[alacarte]

I have one foot in both camps. I'm a Fresh Direct fan but I won't be giving up the supermarkets or Greenmarket either.

I order from Fresh Direct semi-frequently (maybe once every 2 months) and I find it enormously convenient. I can place an order when things are slow at work and then it arrives a couple of days later. I concur with what's was said above about the prices being competitive (not outstandingly cheap, but decent) and the quality of the food, esp. the produce, being quite nice. And I love that the delivery guys don't hover waiting for tips, though I usually tip them anyway.

Since I order kosher meat from FD (yes, blovie, it's quite good, especially the lamb) they will not deliver that on late Friday or Saturdays, in accordance with kosher law. I even used them to do a good bulk of my Passover shopping, which was very convenient and saved me taxi fare back from the Upper West Side kosher emporiums as well as the worry that my perishables were about to perish every time we hit a traffic snarl.

Another thumbs-up for FD: they educate consumers about produce, including blurbs noting which items are out of season, how to store produce, and describing more unusual items. For example, I ordered a Charentais melon in my last order, which apparently is in its peak season and which I'd never even heard of before. I was happy to pass up my honeydew for something new. Can't wait to try it -- it smells lovely.

I think FD took the NY Times article to heart. The NYT article noted that boxes frequently arrive half-empty to help preserve the quality of the food inside and (I assume) to help save the delivery guy's back. But that means FD uses a small forest's worth of trees for each delivery order. However, last night's Passover delivery came very tightly packed, using about half the number of boxes I'd usually expect.

My main complaint with FD is that they often have a limited variety of certain items, and don't always have the brands I prefer. Kosher chicken is an excellent example. Empire is far and away the best kosher chicken around outside of a great local butcher shop. However, FD doesn't carry it. They sell poultry from "Aaron's Best," which I find small, flabby, yellow, and gamy. Instead, I'll go out of my way to the Food Emporium for Empire chicken....and of course, I'll pick up other items while I'm there.

I do enjoy the process of looking at produce and new foods in person, and I enjoy seeing what other people are buying. Can't do that online. But I hate shopping in general because I hate crowds (why do I live in NYC then? good question) and I hate lugging home purchases (which delivery can alleviate if I choose). So I'm not inclined to give up FD either.

[Cleo]

For the record, in the Gramercy Park area, Garden of Eden is excellent and Whole Foods isn't half bad.  Plus the Greenmarket...

←

Not sure which Garden of Eden you're referring to, but the one on Third Avenue & 24th Street is closed.

[scamhi]

I've only had 2 experiences with Fresh Direct and they both were unsatisfactory. Both problems involved the meat dept and both resulted in returns and refunds.

At Easter, I ordered a bone in leg of lamb $8.49lb same as Citarella. It came with the chime bone rermoved (good) and also the shank bone removed (bad).

Never again, I like to see my food before I plonk down $65.00 for a roast.

Edited April 23, 2005 by scamhi (log)

[Luckylies]

I love fresh direct. I'm in school right now and extrordinarily exhausted at the end of the day. It's just not reasonble for me to pich up produce every day or so. I'm just too tired, yet If I don't have fresh groceries to whip up into real food my drained brain orders a cheese steak...this does not work well at all. though some things are less perfect than if I picked them myself (I'm starting to get the gist of what can be expected in terms of produce) not having to schlep makes all the difference. I still love shopping for groceries in my spare time, and sometimes order skeleton orders (leaving out the seafood or protein or things I like to poke, like avocados) so I can shop a little for fun in the "real world" It's also nice to be able to order the heavy stuff like wine and soda that would either be delivered or carried in instllments. I also enjoy the value. I dont overbuy because the resource exists consistantly and I dont have to eyeball portions. Fresh direct is to me, a godsend and I will keep using it.

[Sandra Levine]

I live in an underserved area as far as food shopping is concerned and Fresh Direct has been a godsend. I've been very pleased with the quality, especially of fish and vegetables.

[phaelon56]

I live in an area where the population density is fairly low and overall metro area population is likely not sizable enough to support on-line grocery purchasing. The only grocery vendor in this area who's got the savvy and the infrastructure to support such a venture as a subsidiary operation is Wegman's and I don't see them doing it - certainly not around here.

No if's and's or but's - they want people physically in the store because they'll sell more that way. I wish I could order grocery products on-line - with the exception of produce which I will only buy when I can pick it out hands-on... it would be so nice to just pick and click and have it there when I get home.

With a 60 - 70 hour work week I lack the time or inclination to do more than the bare minimum of shopping but would actually spend more if I could do it more conveniently.

[Laura B]

I really love FreshDirect. I have ordered from FD once or twice a week for the past 7 months, and I have never been disappointed with anything that has been delivered. I have found the meats, fruits, and vegetables to be very high quality. On the infrequent occasion that my bread is squished or some eggs are cracked or something has been left out of the order, they have always issued a credit with no questions asked. Also, a couple of times my order has been late, and when I emailed them to let them know, they have credited me for the delivery fee.

They don't carry every brand that I like, but they carry the vast majority of things I usually buy. The main things they don't have are certain cleaning products and toilet paper, which I pick up at Jubilee as needed. I send them a request almost every week to carry King Arthur flour, but they still don't have it. So, everyone reading this who uses FD, please send a product request for King Arthur unbleached all-purpose flour!!

Edited April 25, 2005 by Laura B (log)

[Dryden]

For the record, in the Gramercy Park area, Garden of Eden is excellent and Whole Foods isn't half bad.  Plus the Greenmarket...

←

Not sure which Garden of Eden you're referring to, but the one on Third Avenue & 24th Street is closed.

←

There are 2 more: one on 14th between university and fifth, and another on 23rd between 6th and 7th.

[JudyG]

Are there other operations competing in this market? Is this the future of food shopping? Or will people always prefer to see, smell and feel their produce before buying?

←

I sincerely hope for the latter. By buying from supermarkets, we are already so estranged from the food we eat that I refuse to take another step away. I've never ordered from Fresh Direct, but would like to hear what everyone who has ordered from them thinks about their produce. I wonder whether their business increases substantially during the winter, when lugging groceries home is such a chore that even I have considered engaging in mail-order shopping.

←

I'm a Fresh Direct fan although I dont purchase on weekly basis. Their organic poultry and fresh pasta is simply the best Ive ever had - I tend to buy in mini-bulk and freeze- that is, I will buy a couple of chickens, chicken parts, etc. and linguine, fettucine and tortellini to have on hand. I put the bags of pasta in another plastic bag - and it stays as fresh as the day I buy it. I have a vacuum sealer and seal meats and poultry. We also purchase steaks from Fresh Direct, and for a party I had a perfectly lovely breast of veal

As for the produce, Ive never had bad - and it is far better than any I can find at my local supermarkets

Judy

[Rachel Perlow]

They don't carry every brand that I like, but they carry the vast majority of things I usually buy.  The main things they don't have are certain cleaning products and toilet paper, which I pick up at Jubilee as needed.  I send them a request almost every week to carry King Arthur flour, but they still don't have it.  So, everyone reading this who uses FD, please send a product request for King Arthur unbleached all-purpose flour!! 

←

Jeez, they don't even have Hecter's or any bread flour. I guess they figure, people getting their groceries delivered don't make homemade bread.

[Luckylies]

yesterday they sent me mint instead of sage and my chicken's breast didn't have full skin coverage... small gripes, but I wish they would just get it right...

[emsny]

I'm resurrecting this thread to ask whether other members have had problems with FreshDirect, specifically incorrect items shipped and broken cryovac/vacuum pack seals. I use them only two or three times a year, but such problems seem to arise too often and I wonder whether frequent shoppers experience these things regularly. I should say that they are very responsive to complaints and clear them up quickly, but sometimes this throws cooking plans off track.