Pizza Article in Today's Inquirer

[mrbigjas]

OK i must be missing something here. in today's article, craig laban and pizza guy tour around the city. and then there's a sidebar where he provides 'other suggested stops in the hunt for the perfect pie.'

and they are: illuminare, rembrandt's, pesto, la fourno, new wave, people's (in cherry hill), carambola (in dresher) and.... lazaro's, at 18th & south.

i either understand or haven't been to the others on his list, but choosing lazaro's over rustica or joe's is pretty confusing to me. in fact, choosing it over randazzo's, which is at the same corner, is confusing to me--randazzo's isn't that great, but it's miles better than lazaro's.

actually i'm gonna go a little further--why he would include lazaro's as anything but a caution against overly greasy, bready greek-style pizza is beyond me.

anyone? am i missing something about this place that warrants its inclusion? it's really cheap, i'll give them that...

[Lisa1349]

Lazaro's pizza reminds me of any small neighborhood pizzeria in NY that's been around since the dawn of time. That brings good memories to me - it's not the best pizza but I don't find it offensive.

[gbredben]

My beef with this article is the feeling that he's comparing all the pies to NY style pizza. That to me is just wrong in that Philadelphia to me has its own unique pizza style. In that, of course Lombardi's will win because its NY style pizza. What about the identity of Philly style pizza? And absolutely no mention at all of South Philly and Northeast tomato pies? To me, its just one person's opinion piece rather than a true representation of pizza in Philly.

[Rich Pawlak]

OK i must be missing something here.  in today's article, craig laban and pizza guy tour around the city.  and then there's a sidebar where he provides 'other suggested stops in the hunt for the perfect pie.'

and they are: illuminare, rembrandt's, pesto, la fourno, new wave, people's (in cherry hill), carambola (in dresher) and.... lazaro's, at 18th & south.

i either understand or haven't been to the others on his list, but choosing lazaro's over rustica or joe's is pretty confusing to me.  in fact, choosing it over randazzo's, which is at the same corner, is confusing to me--randazzo's isn't that great, but it's miles better than lazaro's. 

actually i'm gonna go a little further--why he would include lazaro's as anything but a caution against overly greasy, bready greek-style pizza is beyond me.

anyone?  am i missing something about this place that warrants its inclusion?  it's really cheap, i'll give them that...

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To exclude either of the two Rustica locations, Mama Palma's, Franco & Luigi's, and especially Delorenzo's in Trenton, were glaring errors to me.

[KatieLoeb]

OK i must be missing something here.  in today's article, craig laban and pizza guy tour around the city.  and then there's a sidebar where he provides 'other suggested stops in the hunt for the perfect pie.'

and they are: illuminare, rembrandt's, pesto, la fourno, new wave, people's (in cherry hill), carambola (in dresher) and.... lazaro's, at 18th & south.

i either understand or haven't been to the others on his list, but choosing lazaro's over rustica or joe's is pretty confusing to me.  in fact, choosing it over randazzo's, which is at the same corner, is confusing to me--randazzo's isn't that great, but it's miles better than lazaro's. 

actually i'm gonna go a little further--why he would include lazaro's as anything but a caution against overly greasy, bready greek-style pizza is beyond me.

anyone?  am i missing something about this place that warrants its inclusion?  it's really cheap, i'll give them that...

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To exclude either of the two Rustica locations, Mama Palma's, Franco & Luigi's, and especially Delorenzo's in Trenton, were glaring errors to me.

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What Rich said. And the biggest insult is this:

Philly pizza has never acquired the kind of iconic status that gives it a distinctive personality.

Say whaaaat??? Excuuuuuuse me?

Philistine! He missed virtually all the great pizzas in the entire city and then the unmitigated gall to say there's nothing iconic here. Pffffft!

[philadining]

I don't know... I'll agree that both of the lists were rather weird, but I think the idea that "philly pizza" doesn't have a real solid image has some merit.

I had been doing my own informal survey of friends and associates, and discovered that whenever i asked about pizza, I just got a lot of equivocating and qualified lukewarm recommendations, hardly anyone declaring that they totally loved one place, or that there was any single gold standard. That's actually how I first found eGullet, in trolling around the web, i came across pizza club postings here, which were very informative, but I think if you review those topics, some of the claims in the Inky will be borne out.

IS there a "Philly Style" pizza, like one can say NY style, or New Haven style, or heck, Trenton style. and indicate something? If so, what is it? (If it's a matter of ubiquity, it would probably be oily greek-"style" pizza....)

I'm not trying to say that there's not good pizza in Philly, I've had lots of really good pizza, and thanks to tips here, there are some more I'm getting around to trying, but it's all over the map stylistically. And as a strong proponent of Philly food, it pains me to say that I haven't had any that were really mind-blowingly great.

(I don't think you can blame them for leaving out Trenton when writing about Philly pizza, even if it is good, and not that far away...)

I think what the "lack of iconic status" comment was getting at was that most people in Philly have an opinion about who makes the best cheesesteak, or think that cheesesteaks suck, or can tell you a story about one they had once. My informal, anecdotal experience is that nobody engages with pizza like that around here. They'll tell you that they like this one or that one, but the discussion doesn't inspire the same passion as one might expect.

[mrbigjas]

i see your point... especially about the ubiquity of greek pizza. more thought on the subject is definitely necessary.

i still say lazaro's isn't very good. a person might as well go to pine street or towne or any of the numerous crappy places up here in fairmount if they're going to go there.

[KatieLoeb]

The thing about Philly pizza is the CRUST or the DOUGH, I guess. There's a certain flavor it has that probably has to do with the water, but it's a flavor I recognize. Also a little bit of "sour-dough-ness" to the crust as well. Good crushed tomato sauce (on the good ones anyway) and lots of gooey Mozz. It's definitely different that New York style "fold me and have have orange grease drip down your arm", or New Haven apizza. It's just different. But they're all pizza. Does anyone question whether Beanie Weenie casserole is merely White Trash Cassoulet by another name? Sheesh!

He missed Rustica (both of them), Franco and Luigi's and Mama Palma's, ferchrissakes! To say the survey was incomplete would be diplomatic. The statistical sample was unrepresentative at best. Worthless results.

[philadining]

The thing about Philly pizza is the CRUST or the DOUGH, I guess.  There's a certain flavor it has that probably has to do with the water, but it's a flavor I recognize.

I hear ya, although ironically, the most vivid expression I've had of that recently was at Lombardi's. And oddly, although I love Mama Palma's, I don't think their crust has that distinctive flavor.

He missed Rustica (both of them), Franco and Luigi's and Mama Palma's, ferchrissakes!  To say the survey was incomplete would be diplomatic.  The statistical sample was unrepresentative at best.  Worthless results.

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I'll agree with that, it was sloppy at best, and in the end not saying anything helpful about the local scene, other than that old cliche that it doesn't compare to NY...

But what I was getting at above is that although I've been eating entirely too much pizza from Mama Palma's and Marra's (as well as Lombardi's,) when out of town friends or family come to visit, I don't take them out for pizza. I might get them a cheesesteak or a pork sandwich or a taco or duck soup, so, simple, cheap stuff is on the agenda, but I've never felt like showing-off our pizza.

Check our threads here on eGullet: when somebody's coming to town and asks for recommendations of great Philly food, do we ever tell them to get pizza?

[mrbigjas]

this article and discussion reminded me that i have a recommendation whenever you go to marra's: get a large pie, even if there are only two of you.

i don't know if it's that they don't have dough preportioned for small pies, or that they use the same dough ball for small and large, but the last couple times i forgot this and got a small, it was way thicker and doughier than i preferred it to be.

i do still love their sauce and cheese combination though.

[philadining]

this article and discussion reminded me that i have a recommendation whenever you go to marra's: get a large pie, even if there are only two of you.

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Yeah, and it's WAY more entertaining to watch people try to squeeze by your gigantic pie cantilevered out into the aisle! We got nervous once and just pulled the thing onto the table, and although we had to give up on plates and juggle our beers, it worked in a familiar eating-over-the-sink kind of way.

A (large, of course) pepperoni pie I had there recently seemed to have been affected by the Delaware River oil spill, if any environmentalists had seen me by the time I was done, they would have thrown me in a tub of soapy water and scrubbed me like an oil-slicked duck. But it was worth not being able to grip the steering wheel on the ride home, it was a tasty pizza.

[slkinsey]

A few thoughts here:

First, it's never susprising to me when someone writes a pizza article that mentions the mediocre places in town and fails to mention the standouts. Even the great Peter Reinhardt in his wonderful book American Pie discusses perennial disappointment Lombardi's and yet leaves out NYC's best coal oven place, Patsy's East Harlem.

Second, it's not clear to me that there is a distinct "Philly Style" pizza as such. I'd be interested to hear what makes "Philly Style" distinctly different from other styles. For that matter, I'm not sure there is a "New Haven Style" as distinctly different from "NYC Style" either -- the classic places over there just do the same style at a higher level. These are all, more or less, variations on what Reinhardt calls "Neo-Neapolitan pizza." This style originated in NYC, is most commonly associated with NYC and is most commonly called "NY Style" -- but I'm not sure that means NYC owns the style or that other cities don't also have great traditional pizzeria making pizza in more or less the same style. It's just a name, and "Neo-Neapolitan" is probably a better name. This is to say that I think there are greater differences among individual old school pizzerie within these cities than there are among the aggegrate "city styles" between these cities.

I can be convinced otherwise, of course. I'd be interested to hear what someone who wanted to open a traditional "Philly Style" pizzeria in NYC would do to distinctly differentiate that place from the traditional "NYC Style" places in NYC such that people would be able to walk in and say, "oh yea... this is completely different from the local style" (this is what I assume, for example, people natives do when they visit the Grimaldi's in Phoenix, AZ).

[rlibkind]

I think philadining nailed it: There are certainly good pizzas in town, but I find the idea that a "Philadelphia" pie with a distinctive style exists beyond my comprehension. (Your taste is far too subtle for me, Katie; I just don't perceive the water thing.) Pizza in Philadelphia is all over the map. And although there are outposts of tomato pie in town, to claim it as Philadelphia's own is stretching it: Trenton makes, Philadelphia takes.

I, for one, enjoy orange grease dripping down my arm. When I was working around 20th & Market, that's why frequently found myself at Dolce Carini. Very tasty pie; also suitably greasy. If Holly rated pizzerias strictly on grease, this joint would earn six stains -- especially when you ask them to add canned anchovies to your slice!

I found the most interesting reference in the article to Pizza By George at the Reading Terminal Market. I, too, have long thought they've offered the best by-the-slice pizza you can find in Center City, as anyone who's read my posts about the RTM knows. (For that matter, their slices are better than 95% of the whole pies I've had in town.) I've also indulged in their pretty good eggplant parm for lunch.

[phungi]

so a birthday ritual has become an evening out with friends at Taconelli's, which among my crowd is considered good eating... is there any compelling argument to switch the festivities to Lombardi's this year?

[Buckethead]

If Philadelphia has its own pizza style, I haven't eaten it, though I've had some really good slices. The tomato pie, sauce on the bottom, isn't indigenous to this area. I can understand what Katie is saying about the water and the dough, but I don't think Philly has a distinct style from NYC in the way that, say, Chicago-style or California-style are different.

[Holly Moore]

Maybe the Sarcone's or Cacia tomato pie could be labeled Philadelphia style pizza.

What's sad is the decline of the neighborhood pizza parlor over the 20 years. The proliferation of rabbit pellet sausage. What strikes me, at least, as the overall cheapening of ingredients. When Frank Rizzo was still Mayor and I first moved to Philadelphia, there were a number of great neighborhood pizzas.

Note to Sam K - check Lombardi's again in a few months. With Mike moving back and taking over the reins in NY, you might see things settle down and quality return.

[serpentine]

What's sad is the decline of the neighborhood pizza parlor over the 20 years. The proliferation of rabbit pellet sausage. What strikes me, at least, as the overall cheapening of ingredients.

Hear, hear. And rubber gasket olives.

Speaking of...we noticed a worrisome change in ingredient quality at Franco & Luigis awhile back. Overall quality seems to have evened out again, but I'm still afraid to order a pizza with sausage -- a couple of times we got big, clumsy chunks of a clearly inferior sausage and shoddy cheese distribution instead of the beautiful pie that we expected. I heard a vague something about sons taking over for the father? Everything okay over there? And can anyone give me a sausage quality-check testimonal?

[Andrew Fenton]

Speaking of...we noticed a worrisome change in ingredient quality at Franco & Luigis awhile back. Overall quality seems to have evened out again, but I'm still afraid to order a pizza with sausage -- a couple of times we got big, clumsy chunks of a clearly inferior sausage and shoddy cheese distribution instead of the beautiful pie that we expected. I heard a vague something about sons taking over for the father?  Everything okay over there? And can anyone give me a sausage quality-check testimonal?

Two weeks ago, I split three pizzas from F & L's-- spinach and mozzarella, plain, and a tomato pie, so I can't comment on the sausage-- and the cheese distribution was fine. (Well, except on the tomato pie, duh.) Had to get takeout, so the crust was softer than I'd have liked. What are you gonna do?

edit: oh, and welcome, serpentine!

Edited April 2, 2005 by Andrew Fenton (log)

[mrbigjas]

serpentine, i don't know about F&L's, but your post reminded me: another thing i've been meaning to mention in the pizza threads (we should have a separate 'things to keep in mind when getting pizza at various places' thread... or maybe this will end up being it) probably the best sausage pizza i've had in philadelphia is from rustica in northern liberties. they use really good hot italian sausage, cut into strips somehow, like longways. you really NOTICE the sausage when you have it. damn it's good.

i just realized that i think that rustica is the pizza i have most often--since we realized they deliver to our office, it's all we order. and we order... a little more often than we probably should.

[slkinsey]

Note to Sam K - check Lombardi's again in a few months.  With Mike moving back and taking over the reins in NY, you might see things settle down and quality return.

This is interesting. What was the deal there? Mike used to manage the NY place and moved to Philly when they opened up the branch down there? If so, his moving back to the City to manage the NYC original should be good news indeed. I've always heard that the Philadelphia Lombardi's was excellent, and the NYC one has been mediocre for quite a few years now. It's really too bad, though, that the NYC Lombardi's gain comes due to the loss of the Philadelphia outpost. Do you think they have any plans to try to open in another location down there?

[mrbigjas]

the article implied that they don't--that this is it; they're shutting down and he's headed back to new york. which is a bummer.

[Holly Moore]

.... It's really too bad, though, that the NYC Lombardi's gain comes due to the loss of the Philadelphia outpost.  Do you think they have any plans to try to open in another location down there?

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No. According to Mike commercial real estate per foot rent in Center City Philadelphia for the type of location he would want, is approaching Manhattan prices. He'd rather find another location in NY.

[ghostrider]

The thing about Philly pizza is the CRUST or the DOUGH, I guess.  There's a certain flavor it has that probably has to do with the water, but it's a flavor I recognize.  Also a little bit of "sour-dough-ness" to the crust as well. 

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That certainly piques my interest. I guess that flavor is pretty much ubiquitous, since even Lombardi's has it, as noted above?

I was going to ask for recommendations, but if it comes from the water, then I'd do well with any of the places mentioned in this thread. Carry on.

[Rich Pawlak]

The thing about Philly pizza is the CRUST or the DOUGH, I guess.  There's a certain flavor it has that probably has to do with the water, but it's a flavor I recognize.  Also a little bit of "sour-dough-ness" to the crust as well.  Good crushed tomato sauce (on the good ones anyway) and lots of gooey Mozz.  It's definitely different that New York style "fold me and have have orange grease drip down your arm", or New Haven apizza.  It's just different.  But they're all pizza.  Does anyone question whether Beanie Weenie casserole is merely White Trash Cassoulet by another name?  Sheesh!

He missed Rustica (both of them), Franco and Luigi's and Mama Palma's, ferchrissakes!  To say the survey was incomplete would be diplomatic.  The statistical sample was unrepresentative at best.  Worthless results.

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Katie is point on regarding the personality of the Philly pizza at its best: it is the crust, more flavorful than NY versions, and yeastier than Midwestern and West Coast styles; I imagine that the Philly water DOES have something to do with that; I've never heard of pizzerias in Philly eschewing the local tap stuff in favor of other water. After over a year of Pizza Clubs across the area and into Brooklyn for one excursion, the Philly crust found at Taconneli's, Rustica, Mama Palma's, Marra's, Joe's and yes, even at Pietro's and Lombardi's has a quality that can be discerned. George's, to me anyway, is nothing special; it reminds me of the generic Sbarro and other mall pizzerias that do nothing to progress the ouvre. The water here in the Trenton area is certainly nothing great to drink (we dont even drink the tap water here in Lawrenceville, NJ), and I suspect that it lends itself to the superior crusts at iconic tomato pie places like the Delorenzo's of Hudson St and Hamilton Ave., as well as the great pies at Top Road Tavern.

The great Philly pizzas DO indeed have their own personality, and Levine (and sadly, Laban) missed it completely. Maybe Laban should be joining us for a Pizza Club. Yeah, that'll happen.

[KatieLoeb]

Maybe Laban should be joining us for a Pizza Club. Yeah, that'll happen.

He lurks here. I know he does. Perhaps he'll join us for a Pizza Club outing if we agree to provide the disguise?? Groucho Glasses? A gigantic pile of frites and a waiter to hold them in front of his face all evening like his latest photo in Philadelphia Magazine? Whadda 'ya think?

And thanks for defending my oh-so-sensitive palate, Rich. You're my hero.