Char Siu Bao: Cook-Off 2

[helenas]

These buns look wondeful - what if you would steam them? Would buns stay as thin-crusted as they do baked?

Edited January 24, 2005 by helenas (log)

[jackal10]

I think steamed Bao have a different dough - less rich without eggs or butter. Traditionally the dough is thicker, both for structural integrity of the soft dough, and also to diistinguish from the steamed dumpling type. If the dough is very thin when steamed it doesn't seem like a bread dough, but just a thick ordinary wrapper.

[helenas]

yeh, your explanation makes perfect sense, But as i posted a page ago, i still think that those korean buns skins had some leavening in them: the texture was so different from the ordinary wrappers. How about a bit of baking powder? Or something like buttermilk and baking soda?

[phifly04]

Fantastic!!!the dough(in above thread) came out beautifully and i made a reduction sauce out of the char siu marinade to drizzle over the bao.i steamed them for 10 minutes.i,ll tell you this is my first experience with char siu bao and i am very pleased with the effort.Im gonna take my camera film to get developed and hopefully post some pics by wednesday.I also saved some cubed pork to make fried rice for dinner.A great experience for sure,thanks to all who posted and particapated-looking forward to the next challenge

Dave s

[little ms foodie]

I can't wait to see your pictures Dave!

[Chris Amirault]

Well, for a while I roasted the pork at 450F on two separate pans to keep the marinades apart -- but after a while I decided that my experiment was over and that Eileen Yin-Fei Lo's recipe was best. So all of them turned out like this:

They are wonderful, very complex and sweet and just great. The marinade I used was

3 T dark soy

3 T light soy

1/2 c honey

1/2 t salt

3 T oyster sauce

2 T shaoxing wine

3 T hoisin

1/2 t white pepper

2 cakes preserved bean curd

1 t five-spice

1/2 t szechuan peppercorn salt

OK, phew.

I've been telling myself that I've got too much work to do to make the bao tonight, but, honestly, I'm a bit scared, bc my bun dough has really sucked everytime I've tried this. I'm obsessively reading the three pages of technique tips in Barbara Tropp's satisfyingly anal recipe in Modern Art of Chinese Cooking, but I'm not closer to making the damned things. I'm not the baker in the house, either, and she's out for the day. So....

I guess I'm putting bao off until tomorrow....

[Chris Amirault]

I am going to start roasting the pork,This is where i am going to break with tradition and roast my pork using the low and slow method.250f for 4 hours,then blasted at 500f the final 15 minutes,my dough ecipe is from the Philadelphia Inquirer

1 1/2 tsp. dry yeast

2 tbl. sugar

1 1/2 cups warm water(110F)

2 1/2 cups a.p flour

1 1/2 cups cake flou

1 tsp. salt

happy pics to follow

←

Dave, do you have a link for that recipe? Your happy results are encouraging to me!

[chefzadi]

yeh, your explanation makes perfect sense, But as i posted a page ago, i still think that those korean buns skins had some leavening in them: the texture was so different from the ordinary wrappers. How about a bit of baking powder? Or something like buttermilk and baking soda?

←

The Korean buns are pretty much the same as the Chinese buns. In Korea it's considered to a be a Chinese dish and it is not something that is made at home. Chinese (Immigrants or Korean born of Chinese descent) who are called Hakyuh sell them in restaurants or food stands. Even in LA's Korea town most of the vendors are Hakyuh.

I've noticed it's usually the sweeter dough that's used. As for the Korean versions you had in Russia, some morphing must have happened along the way. At a certain point it became a Korean-Russian version. Are there any Korean-Russians here?

You gotta love how food travels.

[Gastro888]

Can anyone explain why some of the baked bao turned out so thin-skinned and the ones you buy in the restaurants have a more fluffy interior? We make the steamed bao at home but after looking at the baked results, I'd like to find out more secrets to the baked bao before attempting. Thanks!

PS: Great photos, y'all!

[chefzadi]

Can anyone explain why some of the baked bao turned out so thin-skinned and the ones you buy in the restaurants have a more fluffy interior?  We make the steamed bao at home but after looking at the baked results, I'd like to find out more secrets to the baked bao before attempting.  Thanks!

PS:  Great photos, y'all!

←

Bake= dry heat, moisture loss

Steam= moist heat, added moisture

[Gastro888]

Yeah, but the baked bao you get at the restaurants don't have a thin crust like the ones here. So I'm wondering how they do it so that it's fluffy but with the crusty exterior. I wonder if they do a steam/bake sorta combo.

[chefzadi]

I've heard of the steam/fry combo for dumplings.

Let the dough rise after stuffing, before baking. I'm not hot a stuffed bun expert. But in bread making steam will give a light fluffy interior and a crusty exterior.

[reesek]

Comments on that?

←

i live in west seattle

←

haha! well I think you and your cute guy should make some this weekend too and then we can do a taste off here in Pioneer Square

←

he is cute, isn't he? almost as cute as your bao!

drool drool. must make bao.

chris - how much pork did you use?

[torakris]

the char sui after roasting

and after cutting

I then cooked it a bit with soy sauce, shaoxing wine, sugar, scallions and hoisin sauce. The recipe actually called for oyster rather than hoisin but when I opened up my bottle of oyster sauce the smell was off and I realized it expired 8 months ago! So I cut back on the sugar and added some hoisin.

My kids then helped stuff the buns and snip the tops, the steamed buns

they weren't as smooth as the ones I buy, but the dough was very good! Did anyone ele's dough recipe call for any kind of fat? Mine had 3 tablespoons of lard...

[torakris]

I forgot to mention my family loved these! I thought they were very good, but they tasted too much of hoisin.....

[little ms foodie]

Did anyone ele's dough recipe call for any kind of fat? Mine had 3 tablespoons of lard...

←

Mine had 2 TBS of shortening or oil melted with sugar and water.

Those bao look great!!!

how much pork did you use?

my recipe called for 1/2 pound of the cooked pork for 24 bao.

[torakris]

how much pork did you use?

my recipe called for 1/2 pound of the cooked pork for 24 bao.

←

mine called for 3 cups for 12....

[phifly04]

Well i had the bao with some reserved pork that i used to make pork fried rice.These wee sooo good,my recipe called for 2 lbs to make 16.did anyone else use the marinade as a sauce??

[jackal10]

Following Florence Lin, the baked dough has 4 Tbs fat, the steamed one without fat.

My baked Bao had thin crusts because I rolled the dough thin and used lots of filling. If I'd used thicker dough and less filling, which if making commercially I would as dough is a lot cheaper than filling, then the crust would be thicker, and more like a bread roll or a sandwich.

Edited January 25, 2005 by jackal10 (log)

[Ben Hong]

Aha, I've been inadvertantly vindicated in my stance for pragmatism in cooking by the results of your labours.

There were many a post devoted to getting the exact brand of Shiao Shing wine to use in the filling, the proper and right proportions of ingredients, whether to use fermented bean cheese or not, etc. just to have as much "authenticity" as possible. Even though I advocated pragmatism, I applauded your quest for the one true bao.

But then I see the results(especially the baked ones) and, as delicious as I can imagine they are, they are virtually bereft of any dough covering. HEY, they are called "BAO" or buns, ie: doughy things. A fistful of filling wrapped with a thin covering of crust would not be called a "bao" in my lexicon. The "authentic" bao usually is 70% dough to 30% filling by volume, sometimes even less. Authenticity is an elusive thing, and it describes more than taste. If you prefer a bao with a thin skin of dough, by all means enjoy.

Pragmatism and creativity are wonderful words, aren't they?

[Transparent]

Just scoffed one warm.

I used Florence Lin's recipe for the dough. I didn't have any butter or whole milk, so I had to go the oil route with 1% fat milk. Yep, it's definately time to stock up on butter again. Good thing I'm going to costco tomorrow. My whole milk had gone bad, and all I had left was a pint of 1%. Not that great of a start for a baking day. Overall, I found it kind of dry; most likely because of my reluctance to go out in the cold to buy ingredients.

The filling was my own creation. I based my proportions to Mrs. Lin's recipe. It tasted great. I probably could have eaten it straight up.

Bakeries here in NY seem to use the universal sweet dough for their baked char siu bao. I might try that approach the next time I make it.

Edited: Spelling

Edited January 29, 2005 by Transparent (log)

[pkee]

What a timely challenge . . . I'm cooking parent at preschool tomorrow . . . I'm teaching them how to make guk char siu bao for New Year's. My 3 year-olds know how as they've been practicing quite some time but the others . . .

This time I'm using Corinne Trang's recipe w/o food coloring. I thought about Eileen Lo's but I was concerned the 5 spice might have a bit of kick. I marinated the pork (strips to get the flavor more evenly distributed) last night and started roasting some before work. The kids have already attacked the char siu - apparently very tasty after Cheerios. In the past, I've also used Tropp ("Modern Art') for a more savory filling.

Usually I use David Soohoo's bread recipe as outlined in Beth Hensperger's bread machine book and Eileen's filling (from the dumpling book - but that book was also written before certain ingredients became available in the States). The kids have an easier time helping. The one difference is that I go through a double rise.

Rise 1, then shape, rise 2, then bake. The first rise definitely improves the shaping of the dough, particularly for the base of the palm flower. I find that the finished product has a softer interior. I plan to make brush the tops w/ sesame oil. It's supposed to keep the top moist. It's the only step that I haven't tried before.

The shaped bao rise on a Silpat (no more torn bao for us!).

In general, everything winds up hemispherical unless the kids are doing the shaping (then it's a bit more like a football).

Oh yes, if you are in Bay Area, come on down. I'm making about 6 dozen of them so I won't notice if someone decides to sample :)

Since I still have a pork butt (bought the double pack at Costco), I think that we're having red-cooked pork for the Super Bowl. So stay longer :)

Pam

[Eden]

Wow! this is the first chance I've had to look at the Bao thread & it's really inspiring. Y'all have posted such beautiful photos!

I will have to play catch up at some point and try making them myself, taking tons of tips from what's been posted here, but for now (having finally finished my cassoulet frenzy) my questions is:

What's next?

I know there was discussion of Boeuf Bourguigonne, Paella and several other dishes, but I don't see anything having been chosen (unless I somehow missed a post) we could even do a sweet if we moved it over to the pastry forum. In fact can I pre-nominate croquembouche for December 2005? I've always wanted to make it, but it seems a bit late in the season to do it now (plus here in the PacNW it's positively summery right now )

I'm ready for almost anything that's NOT cassoulet

Eden

[Chris Amirault]

Wow!

I'm so impressed with the varied results of the bao cookoff. Due to storms, my daughter's flu, and then my own, I've been out of commission much of the last two weeks. I'm glad to see that people have had so much amazing success!

I wish that I could say the same... [sigh]. My char siu turned out great, but the bao, well, not as good. I used Dave's (philfly04's) recipe for dough, and it wasn't quite as ethereal as I had hoped. (If anyone is convinced that they have a fool-proof -- or perhaps idiot-proof -- bao recipe, please let me know!) We ate a few last night with dinner, and the rest went to work with me; my staff loved them, but I must admit I'm still a bit disappointed.

I should also say that, this past weekend, I found a ceramic jar with some intense fermented bean paste, and that went into the filling. Man, that stuff is intensely wonderful....

[snowangel]

Chris, this particular item has been on my "idea" list for the past week or so. So, on Monday morning, a good friend and I will head to the asian market. I am home alone with four kids all week next week (I hate spring break) and think this might be a perfect project for me and the kids.

So, I'd better re-read this thread and come to some sort of conclusion on the roast pork.

And, I will steam the buns. And, hopefully, mine will have the requesite pleats. I am experienced pleater -- I can get between 7 and 9 of them on pot stickers!