Homemade Macaroni and Cheese: The Topic

Florida Jim · August 20, 2003

Macaroni and cheese is one of the best foils for red wine (not just Mouton).

Diane makes her own recipe which includes several different cheeses, crispy bread crumbs as a topping, and, a few wild mushrooms and fresh herbs for added flavor.

Then we get a gang together; like so:

With Caesar salad and fresh croutons:

2000 Luneau-Papin, Clos des Allees, Muscadet:

nose of citrus, sea shells and a mountain stream/

medium body, substantial cut, the flavors follow the nose with good depth, very intense and concentrated, excellent structure, good balance/

very long, crisp finish.

The great thing about Muscadet is that you can drink it on release or ten (maybe more) years later and it tastes great. The ripeness and depth of fruit in this one is exceptional. A wine I should buy more of, immediately. Good with the dish.

With Diane’s mac and cheese:

1999 G. & C. Roumier, Chambolle-Musigny:

expansive nose of red fruit, fruit pits, mineral and accents of black fruit/

medium body, very approachable, smooth, integrated, layered, the flavors are mostly ripe fruit and mineral, has an ethereal quality on the palate but still has grip, perfect balance/

long, beautifully delineated finish.

Fully open for business and as good as wine ever needs to be for this taster. Superb.

Killer with the dish.

1998 Colin-Deleger, Chassagne-Montrachet VV (rouge):

reticent nose of stones and pit fruits, earthy and somewhat rustic/

medium body, substantial tannins, very compact on the palate with flavors that follow the nose, intense and concentrated, somewhat closed, balanced/

medium length, somewhat drying finish.

Clearly, Cote de Beaune with an almost Pommard rusticity. Thank goodness for the cheese; it tamed some of the tannins. Hold.

Good with the dish.

2000 Valhalla, Syrah (Virginia):

a ripe black fruit background with red fruit, olive, pepper, smoked bacon, leather and barnyard all playing in the foreground (who put Jamet in this bottle?)/

medium body, flavors follow the nose with multiple layers and excellent depth, elegant but quite concentrated and intense, solid structure, a very harmonious wine but also complex, lovely balance/

long, complex finish.

At first, I thought someone was playing with me here – this has to be Jamet substituted for the original wine. Not so.

Oh my! For my tastes, the best domestic syrah I have tried.

Outstanding with the dish and excellent by itself.

Best, Jim

John W. · August 20, 2003

Jim;

Of all your posts, this is the one I would most want to attend.

I really like that Valhalla syrah.

What's not to love about Chambolle? What's not to love about mac-n-cheese?

Have you tried any of the other Valhalla wines? Curious as to your opinion on them. I've had the Cornucopia (blend of Cab, Cab Franc and Syrah if I remember correctly), which I like as much as the syrah, but have found the whites to be really lacking in acidity.

Edited August 20, 2003 by John W. (log)

Florida Jim · August 20, 2003

Have you tried any of the other Valhalla wines? Curious as to your opinion on them. I've had the Cornucopia (blend of Cab, Cab Franc and Syrah if I remember correctly), which I like as much as the syrah, but have found the whites to be really lacking in acidity.

John,

I have never even seen their wines; this was via a friend.

However, I will be seeing them in the future: more to come . . .:)

Best, Jim

GordonCooks · August 20, 2003

Have you tried any of the other Valhalla wines? Curious as to your opinion on them. I've had the Cornucopia (blend of Cab, Cab Franc and Syrah if I remember correctly), which I like as much as the syrah, but have found the whites to be really lacking in acidity.
John,
I have never even seen their wines; this was via a friend.
However, I will be seeing them in the future: more to come . . .:)
Best, Jim

I know they're very low production (under 400 cases) The move alot of product via local restaurants.

browniebaker · August 20, 2003

Macaroni and cheese is one of the best foils for red wine (not just Mouton).

Jim, thank you for recognizing the possibilities in mac and cheese! I am printing out your list of wines to show to my oenophile husband who dismisses mac and cheese as a food unworthy of wine, even my special recipe for mac and cheese. Oh, I can just imagine the lively discussion we'll have over dinner tonight . . . .

Florida Jim · August 20, 2003

Macaroni and cheese is one of the best foils for red wine (not just Mouton).
Jim, thank you for recognizing the possibilities in mac and cheese! I am printing out your list of wines to show to my oenophile husband who dismisses mac and cheese as a food unworthy of wine, even my special recipe for mac and cheese. Oh, I can just imagine the lively discussion we'll have over dinner tonight . . . .

Tell him that no less an oenophile than Baron von Rothschild (of Chateau Mouton Rothschild) answered the question "what food goes best with Mouton?" with "macaroni and cheese." (No kidding about this; its true.)

Simple fare is always the best foil for the greatest wines.

Best, Jim

guajolote · August 20, 2003

Florida Jim,

I enjoy all of your posts, but this one really inspired me. I'm making Mac and Cheese tonight despite the 90 degree heat here.

Thanks

Jason Perlow · August 20, 2003

Can we get this Mac and Cheese recipe from Diane?

Florida Jim · August 21, 2003

Can we get this Mac and Cheese recipe from Diane?

Jason,

We leave shortly for three weeks. If you e-mail me at nawoc@skybest.com, I'll try to get it when we get back.

Sorry, Jim

Chad · August 22, 2003

This was originally posted under the "Dinner!" thread, but I realized it would make a better general cooking question.

Last night I made macaroni & cheese. My wife was out of town, and this is what the kids requested. So I thought, fine, if you want mac & cheese, we'll do it my way -- the real thing: bechamel based cheese sauce, decent cheeses, a little spice and baked the way God intended. Ha! I would show the snivling little blue-box lovers what the stuff should taste like :rolleyes: .

Well, it wasn't great. I'm still trying to figure out what went wrong. The sauce was a little thick, kind of grainy and slightly gummy. Flavor was good, but the dish was a textural horror.

I have a couple of possible culprits.

One, I was in a hurry. I'd forgotten that my 8-year-old's last swimming lesson was last night, so I had to rush despite having everything prepped ahead of time. My 13-year-old daughter was helping in the kitchen so I was explaining mise en place to her. Anyway, I rushed the roux. Butter was too hot, I think and the roux went way past blonde immediately. More of a pecan brown, actually.

Two, I made a paste of the other ingredients with the roux before adding the milk. This is a little backward from usual bechamel technique, but it's worked in the past. I added 1T powdered mustard, 1/2t paprika, 1/2t cayenne, a bay leaf and some kosher salt, made a thick paste then whisked in 3 cups of milk a little at a time. Dunno if this really makes a difference or not. Any experts out there?

Three, also in the interest of time I jacked up the heat on the sauce mixture, trying to get it to a simmer faster than it wanted to go. I may have gone overboard, but as I understand it, roux doesn't begin it's thickening until close to the boiling point. I pulled it off the heat before adding the cheese, but it may have been a bit hot, reducing the cheese to gummy string and liquid fat.

Four, my kids were deeply freaked out by white sharp cheddar. To them cheese must be traffic-cone orange or it's not cheese. So we used the Kroger brand medium cheddar I had on hand just in case. Perhaps this cheese has a weird melting point or just doesn't want to work in a sauce. I don't know. When in doubt, blame the ingredients .

Any insights or advice from the collective wisdom of eGullet?

Chad

Jinmyo · August 22, 2003

Not really. I think you've nailed the reasons why it went down that road.

Suzanne F · August 22, 2003

. . . I would show the snivling little blue-box lovers what the stuff should taste like .
Well, it wasn't great. I'm still trying to figure out what went wrong. The sauce was a little thick, kind of grainy and slightly gummy. Flavor was good, but the dish was a textural horror.
I have a couple of possible culprits.
One . . . I rushed the roux. Butter was too hot, I think and the roux went way past blonde immediately. More of a pecan brown, actually.
Two, I made a paste of the other ingredients with the roux before adding the milk.
Three, also in the interest of time I jacked up the heat on the sauce mixture, trying to get it to a simmer faster than it wanted to go. I may have gone overboard, but as I understand it, roux doesn't begin it's thickening until close to the boiling point. I pulled it off the heat before adding the cheese, but it may have been a bit hot, reducing the cheese to gummy string and liquid fat.
Four, my kids were deeply freaked out by white sharp cheddar.
Chad

To address your points specifically:

One: you're probably right. Roux that is not cooked properly has different thickening power from good roux.

Two: I do that too (dry mustard, cayenne, nutmeg, etc.) and have no problem, so I don't think that's a probable cause.

Three: AHA! You were right to remove the sauce from the heat before adding the cheese -- but if it was indeed hotter than necessary, bingo, stringy cheese.

Four: well, you'll just have to keep trying to teach the little buggers, now, won't you? :raz:

slkinsey · August 22, 2003

FWIW, I don't think you need to add a whole lot of cheese to the bechamel sauce. Add some, sure... but the rest of it can just be grated and tossed with the other ingredients to melt in the oven. This will eliminate a possible source of problems and simplify the whole procedure.

IMO, another important element is to cook the pasta well below the threshhold of "al dente" as it will finish softening in the oven. This probably works better with things like penne and ziti than it does with elbow macceroni.

As for the orange color... maybe a little tomato paste in with the roux?

mcdowell · August 22, 2003

Four, my kids were deeply freaked out by white sharp cheddar.
Four: well, you'll just have to keep trying to teach the little buggers, now, won't you?

My son was like that. He'd only eat yellow cheddar, and then only if it was shredded.

Then one day a few months ago we were stuck in a crowd at Whole Foods, taking entirely too long to shop, and the boy started wandering around. He discovered, all on his own, the olive bar (with its little sign saying "samples ok") and the platters of cheese set out to sample all around the store.

Today he won't touch yellow cheese, demanding instead Cabot white cheddar, which is what he packed in his lunch this morning (along with a mix of stuffed olives, some with garlic, some with sun-dried tomatoes).

There's hope for all these kids, and they'll get there without a lot of help (just proper exposure to the good things).

Chad · August 22, 2003

FWIW, I don't think you need to add a whole lot of cheese to the bechamel sauce. Add some, sure... but the rest of it can just be grated and tossed with the other ingredients to melt in the oven. This will eliminate a possible source of problems and simplify the whole procedure.
IMO, another important element is to cook the pasta well below the threshhold of "al dente" as it will finish softening in the oven. This probably works better with things like penne and ziti than it does with elbow macceroni.
As for the orange color... maybe a little tomato paste in with the roux?

Hey, good thought on not mixing all the cheese. I'll have to try that next time. The pasta was well under al dente. I cooked it at a low boil for about 6 minutes (half the suggested time) then shocked it in a bowl of ice water. Turned out perfectly in the casserole. One of the few things that did :rolleyes: . Oh, and the buttered panko on top was absolutely fantastic.

I made the dish again this afternoon. In fact, it's in the oven now. I took a lot more time with the roux, brought the sauce to a simmer then dropped the heat almost all the way back and let it cook for about 10 minutes, took the thickened sauce off the heat until it had cooled significantly before adding the cheese (Cabot extra sharp this time) and just generally babied it a lot more than I did last night. We'll see how it turns out.

Thanks for your help, folks.

Chad

Chad · August 22, 2003

To address your points specifically:
One: you're probably right. Roux that is not cooked properly has different thickening power from good roux.
Two: I do that too (dry mustard, cayenne, nutmeg, etc.) and have no problem, so I don't think that's a probable cause.
Three: AHA! You were right to remove the sauce from the heat before adding the cheese -- but if it was indeed hotter than necessary, bingo, stringy cheese.
Four: well, you'll just have to keep trying to teach the little buggers, now, won't you?

Thanks, Suzanne!

I think problems one and three are the real culprits as well. I'm trying the dish again right now. That's one of the advantages of working from home. That and the fact that cleaning is so much easier now that I don't have all of those pesky paychecks lying around cluttering the place up :raz: .

Anyway, I'll let y'all know how it turns out. I made another batch so I can try something I saw on Alton Brown's show. He let the mac & cheese casserole rest overnight, cut it into squares, breaded them in more panko and deep fried them. That's just too cool not to try.

Chad

Edited August 22, 2003 by Chad (log)

browniebaker · August 22, 2003

So we used the Kroger brand medium cheddar I had on hand just in case. Perhaps this cheese has a weird melting point or just doesn't want to work in a sauce. I don't know. When in doubt, blame the ingredients .

Cheap store-brand cheese is not likely the culprit. Some of the best, most creamy macaroni and cheese I have made was made with, surprisingly, sharp Giant Foods or Safeway cheddar that comes in the economical one-pound or two-pound brick. The key, I think, is that cheap cheddar is usually not aged for long, and such young cheddar melts very well and makes an ultra-creamy mac and cheese. One evening, I tried a costly Vermont white extra-sharp aged cheddar, and the sauce was not as enjoyably creamy; what a waste of a good cheese!

torakris · August 22, 2003

At least you didn't make the mistake I did, I was suing the Mac and cheese recipe from The Best Recipe (which is quite good when done right) and it calls for 2 teaspoons of salt. Well I was jsut skimming the recipe as I was making it, not really reading it since I KNOW how to make mac and cheese. I dumped all 2 teaspoons into the sauce thinking it seemed like a lot but if that is what they said...... :blink: re-reading it later it seems that 1 1/2 teaspoons of the 2 is to salt the water for boiling the pasta........ :blink:

oops!

inedible! :angry:

creaton · August 23, 2003

Depending on your cheese sauce texture preferences, there are a few things that could help.

Using flour (roux) as a thickner tends to lead to a grainy cheese sauce. If that's the way you like it, thats fine, but for those that prefer a smoother sauce, other starches such as rice starch and corn starch can be used. Rice starch is my preference. It thickens and adds body to the sauce without making it gritty. Corn starch is another choice, but it doens't do as good with the sauce body. If you are to try rice or corn starch, my recommendation is to start by still using some roux, and supplement with either.

My guess is that the cheap cheese didn't contribute to the problems you encountered. Some of the best scoring mac n cheese products in the frozen / shelf stable market use cheese ingredients that are simply horrible.

Another thing to try which can add a nice creamy note is some cream cheese or boursin (preferrably boursin).

elyse · August 23, 2003

Kristen, I would have eaten it!

One of my favorite additions is sage. :wub:

sladeums · August 23, 2003

Kristen, I would have eaten it!
One of my favorite additions is sage.

Back away from the pipe and stop skimming.

That was 'salt', not 'sage'.

elyse · August 23, 2003

And your point is?

sladeums · August 23, 2003

sorry, must have misunderstood.

...yipe, yipe, yipe...

elyse · August 23, 2003

Rachel Perlow · August 23, 2003

If the tomato paste doesn't add the right color, there's always food coloring. :laugh:

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