French cuts of beef

[jgould]

Well, this thread sent me off to my local butcher, who cut me a piece of bavette and a piece of onglet for taste comparison.  Went home and grilled them both and my husband and I agreed that we had a distinct preference for the bavette. The onglet tasted too strong, somehow.

The butcher had told me that the onglet, which was darker than the bavette, came from nearer the kidney and therefore was richer in blood.  Anatomy of anything, much less cows, is not my thing, but I'd be curious to know if this is true and if so, whether this accounts for the difference in taste.  I somehow have a suspicion I've been told a yarn.

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awesome! what a wonderful thing to do. i, also, other than looking at a diagragm, not really familiar with a cow's anatomy, so your comments apropo. the following "definitions may help, but a great test would be to do as u & purchase each of the 4 below & perform a similar test. 1st question would be: is the onglet aka hangar steak nearer the kidney vis-a-vis la bavette?

a) an onglet is our hangar (from the plate section) which are the 2 small muscles joined by an elastic membrane, i,e., the supporting muscles of the diaphragm

b) a skirt steak (also from the plate section) IS the diaphragm = bifteck de hampe in french.

skirt is the butcher's term for the diaphragm, which is flattened out & served as steaks.

c) a US flank steak (from the flank section) = a bifteck de flanchet

d) a "bavette" is basically a thin top sirloin; however, this cut may be the most confusing. all the above are clearly from a specific area & agreed upon. the bavette is clearly a different & specific cut, but as a thin top sirloin aka the undercut of the sirloin leads to confusion & difficulty.

i believe this is a conspiracy by the butchers to aggravate those who wonder what these different cuts actually are . in the US, one can visit a local butcher & view a hangar, a skirt, a flank, but the elusive bavette must be known as something else?? in france, the surloigne, aka 'sirloin', refers to a completely different section than our sirloin which is part of the LOIN; therefore, describing a "bavette" as the undercut of the sirloin or as a thin top sirloin has 2 meanings!!

whew!! & i thought describing different cuts would be easy!!!! the other thing to keep in mind (KIM) is different regions in the US use different terms, & i can only assume, the same is true "en France"

Edited November 12, 2004 by jgould (log)

[jgould]

your cut described above must be some HUGE piece of meat!!!

Bah oui. The best example of which has been Boboss's côte de boeuf at Le Quincy in the 12th; watching the not totally-stripped bones toted back to the kitchen brought tears to my friend's eyes.

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i totally commiserate

[rooftop1000]

greetings all

While I get most of my meat from either ...the guy on the phone from Da Bronx or the super market the guy on the phone is mostly skirt steak and that gets grilled and psuedo Mexicanized.... the best steak I ever made at home was in an apartment....no grill. A 2 rib cut of ribeye - standing rib - prime rib Seared in a cast iron pot on one side till crispy flipped covered with sliced onions and popped in a 450 degree oven till properly black and blue.

enough talk lets eat

tracey

[jgould]

a la "poppy quice's" experiment above, bought an onglet & a bifteck de hampe at a local butcher. unfortunately, had to buy the entire piece of each, so decided against the bifteck de flanchet. sauteed mushrooms, shallots, butter, red wine (reduced), then the biftecks. perfectly cooked, & sauce ended up terrific, both compliments of the head chef, my wife, i subbed as the sous chef & sommelier, selecting a moulin-à-vent to match.

results: very similar in taste; however, the onglet was somewhat chewier, & had a gamier taste. la hampe was tender, but had slightly less of a taste. probably would go with the onglet, but only barely. assume the flanchet would come in 3rd since it is an "inferior" cut vis-à-vis the other two, but next experiment will be onglet vs. flanchet vs. la bavette. voila!

[bleudauvergne]

I ordered a bavette at the butcher and he was quite happy to announce that he had a really nice one at the time, which he said was a "bavette d'aloyau". I always thought that there was only one kind of bavette, one of your common cuts. You get this when you're trying to save money. My husband was not too excited about it when I announced what we were going to have for dinner, because he said that the ones he gets in the average cafe or bistrot with frites are often tough and stringy. I didn't do anything special to them, I just pan seared them and seasoned them with some salt and mignonette. They were amazingly flavorful and delicious, and melt in your mouth tender. I was pretty happy about that and imagined rolling it up with and herbed farce on the inside and roasting it, it was so tender and delicious. The next time I went to the butcher I asked him if I could have some more bavette d'aloyau. He said he didn't have any that day but offered me another type of bavette. How many types of bavette are there? How do you best ask in a restaruant ask what kind you're getting since they are often just offered as "bavette"?

[Nicolai]

Two types:

1- Bavette d'aloyau - Also called palangre, fausse osseline in Bordeaux and Toulouse, primpied in Saint Etienne, épais flanchet in Lille and Bifteck Stuck vum Lappe in Alsace.

Also called abroad:

Flank steak

Skirt, boneless

Dicker Bauchlappen

Redondo solomillo

Carne di pancia

Tira de lombo

2- Bavette de flanchet - Also faudil in Toulouse and flanchet d'aiguillette in Agen.

The bavette à pot-au-feu is called aude in Bordeaux, flanc épais in Montreuil-sur-Mer and Luppefleich vum Lappe in Alsace.

Also called abroad:

Skirt steack

Hose

Redondo falda

Bavetta Oculo de aba

Edited December 11, 2005 by Nicolai (log)

[bleudauvergne]

Nicolai, thank you!

That covers two of them. From what I now understand there are three more, for a total of five types. (this information comes from my husband who heard it from the butcher and was looking over my shoulder as I responded to this post.) I guess there's some footwork for me to do. If anyone else knows of the other types I'd love to hear them.

[mharpo]

I don't know much about Bavette, but I do know that skirt steak and flank steak are not the same thing. Here is an article I found that might help you: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...FDG2BBNBS01.DTL

[degusto]

Nicolai, thank you! 

That covers two of them.  From what I now understand there are three more, for a total of five types.  (this information comes from my husband who heard it from the butcher and was looking over my shoulder as I responded to this post.) I guess there's some foootwork for me to do.  If anyone else knows of the other types I'd love to hear them.

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My understanding is that there are only two bavettes, the ones described above. In all there are 33 cuts of beef. For a map on them go to Centre d'Information des Viandes. Klick on each part and the name of it in French will be displayed.

[ScorchedPalate]

From my reading, the part of the cow that's becoming known as bavette in the States -- quite trendy in San Francisco these days, by the way -- is more-commonly known as flap steak here. But I think this is a marketing liberty, more than actual fact.

Paraphrasing from my favorite reference, Field Guide to Meat:

Flank steak is known as bavette de flanchet; it's a single muscle from the flank region, beneath the loin and in front of the back legs. It has a coarse, lengthwise grain; moderately fatty, with no connective tissue.

Skirt steak is known as bavette de aloyau or hampe in French; it's a long, thin fan-shaped cut from the plate (belly). Inside skirt is preferred; it's the part used for authentic fajitas. The outside part is the animal's actual diaphram. Both have a coarse texture and pronounced crosswise grain.

Chain is the cut of beef that's usually known simply as bavette or chainette. This is the long, thin muscle outside the main tenderloin muscle.

Niman Ranch -- a favorite of local restaurateurs -- sells a cut called Bavette, which appears to be the end of the flank steak, a cut that our grandmothers knew as "flap steak": Niman Ranch Bavette (This is the cut that I am seeing in my area, listed simply as "bavette", almost always served cut across the grain, with a bit of sauce. It's a good, beefy cut of meat.) Edited to add: The article posted upthread says that the Niman cut is the bavette de aloyau , which is entirely possible, although the Field Guide says the flap is the end of the flank, not the belly/skirt.

Edited December 13, 2005 by ScorchedPalate (log)

[mdibiaso]

Nicolai, thank you!  

That covers two of them.  From what I now understand there are three more, for a total of five types.  (this information comes from my husband who heard it from the butcher and was looking over my shoulder as I responded to this post.) I guess there's some foootwork for me to do.  If anyone else knows of the other types I'd love to hear them.

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My understanding is that there are only two bavettes, the ones described above. In all there are 33 cuts of beef. For a map on them go to Centre d'Information des Viandes. Klick on each part and the name of it in French will be displayed.

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Great site. Know of something similar in Swedish?

[bleudauvergne]

Thanks, mharpo for the article, and degusto & ScorchedPalate for the valuable info rescources!

As you can see, this butcher paper gives no particular additional insight but I thought it might be nice to put it up to give this thread some ambiance... (this paper comes from the butcher in the neighborhood who stays open on Sundays and from whom I buy meat from time to time.)

[Busboy]

For what it's worth, my wife and I did a cook-off betwee the flank and skirt steaks, apparently corresponding to bavette de flanchette and bavette d'aloyau, just for the hell of it. We were a bit surprised how clear our preference for the skirt/d'aloyau was.

I wonder if the difference between the two cuts was exacerbated by the generally lower quality of beef (so I've heard, so I've found) in France, as opposed to in good-quality U.S. shops. Here, we cook flank steaks every now and again and, while they'll never replace prime rib (or skirt, for that matter), they're not bad. On the other hand, the one time we cooked up a bavette in France -- from what was reputed to be a good butcher in a swank ski town -- it was much as BdA described her experience in the original post, dry and stringy.

[bleudauvergne]

... On the other hand, the one time we cooked up a bavette in France -- from what was reputed to be a good butcher in a swank ski town --  it was much as BdA described her experience in the original post, dry and stringy.

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Do you think that could have something to do with the way it was cut?

[Busboy]

... On the other hand, the one time we cooked up a bavette in France -- from what was reputed to be a good butcher in a swank ski town --  it was much as BdA described her experience in the original post, dry and stringy.

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Do you think that could have something to do with the way it was cut?

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By us or by the butcher?

It didn't -- to my recollection -- appear to be cut significantly different from a U.S. flank steak. And we cooked it as we usually do, and sliced it thin and against the grain when we served it. I think it just wasn't that swell of a piece of meat to begin with.

[pim]

A funny tidbit -if slightly off topic- from a recent trip to Burgundy. At lunch one day in a semi-random brasserie in town, the 'bi-lingual' menu proposed a plat du jour of 'Cobblestone of Beef'.

Cute, no?

[Busboy]

A funny tidbit -if slightly off topic- from a recent trip to Burgundy.  At lunch one day in a semi-random brasserie in town, the 'bi-lingual' menu proposed a plat du jour of 'Cobblestone of Beef'. 

Cute, no?

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Actually, while I've never seen it translated literally before, the term "pavé" -- "paving stone" or "cobblestone" -- is commonly used to describe a piee of beef roughly the size of a U.S. filet mignon. My daughter, when we hit the local bistro here in DC, usually requests the "paving stone."

[pim]

Actually, while I've never seen it translated literally before, the term "pavé" -- "paving stone" or "cobblestone" -- is commonly used to describe a piee of beef roughly the size of a U.S. filet mignon.  My daughter, when we hit the local bistro here in DC, usually requests the "paving stone."

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Really, I've never heard of that used in English. I just thought it was Pavé that suffered a bad run through Babelfish.

[bleudauvergne]

... On the other hand, the one time we cooked up a bavette in France -- from what was reputed to be a good butcher in a swank ski town --  it was much as BdA described her experience in the original post, dry and stringy.

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Do you think that could have something to do with the way it was cut?

←

By us or by the butcher?

It didn't -- to my recollection -- appear to be cut significantly different from a U.S. flank steak. And we cooked it as we usually do, and sliced it thin and against the grain when we served it. I think it just wasn't that swell of a piece of meat to begin with.

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So in the States, it does not come already sliced into individual steaks? So far I have not seen it offered whole. He lays it flat on the board and aligns it, and then makes a nice show of cutting it diagonally into as many individual steaks as you're asking for and then puts it away. What attracted me to the bavette at first was watching him cut the steaks for another lady. I'm a sucker for that kind of thing.

My husband was actually quite suprised that they were so melt in the mouth delicious, because his experience with them had always been just as you describe, dry and stringy ones served in cafes. This prompted me to start asking about that particular delicious tender and juicy kind of bavette (d'Aloyau) and what made it so wonderful - completely different from the ones that are dry and stringy.

They have this thing they call Pierrade in Lyon, a hot stone at the table, you get the meats on the side and cook them up yourself. It reminds me of this Korean thing where they bring out hot cast iron pans and you do the same thing. I think it's their way to handle the stringy type of bavette, now if I can figure out which of them is the stringy kind so I can make sure only to get that for fajitas, pierade, maybe Mongolian hotpot...

The bavette de flanchet?

[bleudauvergne]

A funny tidbit -if slightly off topic- from a recent trip to Burgundy.  At lunch one day in a semi-random brasserie in town, the 'bi-lingual' menu proposed a plat du jour of 'Cobblestone of Beef'. 

Cute, no?

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Cute!

[Busboy]

Actually, while I've never seen it translated literally before, the term "pavé" -- "paving stone" or "cobblestone" -- is commonly used to describe a piee of beef roughly the size of a U.S. filet mignon.  My daughter, when we hit the local bistro here in DC, usually requests the "paving stone."

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Really, I've never heard of that used in English. I just thought it was Pavé that suffered a bad run through Babelfish.

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You're probably right -- the only time I'v actually heard the literal translation here is my daughter, who had a cobblestone for her birthday dinner a couple of weeks ago.

[Busboy]

... On the other hand, the one time we cooked up a bavette in France -- from what was reputed to be a good butcher in a swank ski town --  it was much as BdA described her experience in the original post, dry and stringy.

←

Do you think that could have something to do with the way it was cut?

←

By us or by the butcher?

It didn't -- to my recollection -- appear to be cut significantly different from a U.S. flank steak. And we cooked it as we usually do, and sliced it thin and against the grain when we served it. I think it just wasn't that swell of a piece of meat to begin with.

←

So in the States, it does not come already sliced into individual steaks? So far I have not seen it offered whole. He lays it flat on the board and aligns it, and then makes a nice show of cutting it diagonally into as many individual steaks as you're asking for and then puts it away. What attracted me to the bavette at first was watching him cut the steaks for another lady. I'm a sucker for that kind of thing.

My husband was actually quite suprised that they were so melt in the mouth delicious, because his experience with them had always been just as you describe, dry and stringy ones served in cafes. This prompted me to start asking about that particular delicious tender and juicy kind of bavette (d'Aloyau) and what made it so wonderful - completely different from the ones that are dry and stringy.

They have this thing they call Pierrade in Lyon, a hot stone at the table, you get the meats on the side and cook them up yourself. It reminds me of this Korean thing where they bring out hot cast iron pans and you do the same thing. I think it's their way to handle the stringy type of bavette, now if I can figure out which of them is the stringy kind so I can make sure only to get that for fajitas, pierade, maybe Mongolian hotpot...

The bavette de flanchet?

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It's not inconceivable that I've never seen a whole bavette either here or across the pond. I remember the first time I had an onglet butchered, realizing that what I had thought of as "an onglet" was actually only a quarter of the original cut.

The bavettes that I've been sold are ovals, about the total area of a dinner plate, but they would hang over the edge on the long axis and be narrower than the plate on the other axis. We usually feed the family off one, but it's a bit of a stretch. They look like this, though this one seems a touch plump. I can seee the butcher slicing it into individual portions, but we just cook it whole and then slice it, like a road-kill roast.

In the U.S, you can tell the flank from the skirt because the skirt is so thin. Comme une mini-jupe.

Whether that difference translates literally into French butchery, I don't know.

[bleudauvergne]

These are good ideas to research, busboy, thank you. Nice photos of the meat, too, it gives a better idea of what I'm looking at. I've just come back from a conversation with one butcher who says that in his opinion the only real bavette is the b. d'aloyeau. This is just one guys opinion, he's been in the business for 40 years and has seen a lot. He says most restaurants don't serve it because the real bavette is not very plentiful - for one animal, you get about 14 individual portions. He also says that butchers give lots of names to different cuts, and much of what is sold as bavette is really faux. I had to kind of grill it out of him with some rapidfire questioning.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

For a map on them go to Centre d'Information des Viandes. Klick on each part and the name of it in French will be displayed.

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Thank you for this excellent reference!

[k43]

Here's a list of French cuts from a NYC butcher:

expensive

filet de boeuf - tenderloin

entrecôte - rib steak

faux filet - sirloin

tiny, single portion cuts

la poire - the pear

la fausse-araignée - the spider

larger, comparatively tough but well flavored cuts

onglet - hanger or butcher's tenderloin - naturally dark in color, so don't worry

paleron - part of the shoulder clod - usually braised, but good for grilling or pan frying

pavé, a/k/a filet de romsteck - the romsteck is the top butt - the filet is the poor man's filet mignon - thin, chewy, powerfully flavored cut from the leg - excellent for London broil or steak au poivre

bavette d'aloyau - a smaller, more tender flank steak

The Niman site says their Bavette is from the short loin, which, according to this graphic of American cuts, is either the front of the French faux filet (sirloin) or the rear of the entrecôte. See French cuts.

Edited December 15, 2005 by k43 (log)