Induction Cooktops

[TheAvidHomeChef]

On 5/22/2023 at 8:10 PM, afs said:

I believe that the GE Profile cooktop has a regular induction burner (no temperature sensor), but that it has Bluetooth and Hestan Cue pan compatibility.  In other words, it would use the built-in temperature sensors in the Hestan Cue pans to report the pan temperature.  If you love the Hestan Cue pans, that might be a good match.

The main built-in cooktop I've seen with a pan temperature sensor is this one from Miele.  It has an IR (non-contact) sensor on one hob.  I'm not sure how one calibrates it, how well it works with pans that don't have clean bottoms, or how easy it is to clean.  But it has me intrigued

https://www.miele.com/brand/en/tempcontrol-28475.htm

No, this is a new one I believe. Yes, you still need the Hestan Cue app. You need an iPad or other mobile device for the recipe guidance.

 

 

 

The miele one  definitely looks interesting. I can see more and more established manufacturers are going this way with the sensor on glass tops. 

 

The Hestan Cue pans are not great, to be honest. It makes a lot of noise when cooking. And its Bluetooth is quite a hassle to use. Also, have to twist the cap to turn it on and off every time you cook.

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by TheAvidHomeChef (log)

[afs]

26 minutes ago, TheAvidHomeChef said:

No, this is a new one I believe. Yes, you still need the Hestan Cue app. You need an iPad or other mobile device for the recipe guidance.

Interesting, thanks for the post.  This looks like the cooktop that GE has been showing off for about two years (and seemed to be shipping as part of the "CAFE" line).  I haven't been able to find any information on the cooktop in the U.S. 

Is it an international-only model?  Is it induction-based, or does it have traditional heating coils underneath the surface?

It's curious that some videos show pan temperature control via the pan and others (like the one before) seem to indicate that they've put a single thermocouple-based, spring-loaded sensor on one hob.  I'm hoping to track down a product spec sheet and user manual, somewhere.

I'd love to see a build-in unit with four burners, all using technology and spring-loaded sensors similar to the Control Freak, and varying in coil diameters (one or two big ones, and the rest medium-sized).

[afs]

I dug up a little more information on that GE cooktop (and its CAFE counterpart)--the one which appears to have a contact temperature sensor.  It looks like the unit is a slide-in 30 inch range (oven and cooktop combo).

 

Here is the GE version, with a touchscreen:

https://www.geappliances.com/appliance/GE-Profile-30-Smart-Slide-In-Front-Control-Induction-Fingerprint-Resistant-Range-with-In-Oven-Camera-PHS93XYPFS

Here is the (GE) CAFE version, with knobs for basic operation and capacitive buttons for advanced operations and for operating the stove:
https://www.cafeappliances.com/appliance/Cafe-30-Smart-Slide-In-Front-Control-Induction-and-Convection-Range-with-In-Oven-Camera-CHS90XP2MS1

Here are the manuls:
https://products-salsify.geappliances.com/image/upload/s--arNbW4SJ--/1126fd97a45e8b5019752efdd551b52bf1cc1d22.pdf
https://products-salsify.geappliances.com/image/upload/s--EMiiVzJi--/ee8b4d87498af4ee3253ef14c8b59573b97a2a11.pdf

Here are a few things I noticed in the manuals:

• The front left burner has a temperature sensor.
• When in precision cooking mode, one sets the target temperature for the burner.  It looks like the oven may only show the target temperature for the pan, rather than the current temperature of the pan.  It does have a preheating indication.
• In precision cooking mode, the cooktop wants to know if the pan is stainless steel or cast iron or "other".
• Hestan Cue pans can be used with any of the four burners, with a temperature sensor in the pan.
• Only one burner can be used in "precision" mode at the same time.
• They tend to talk about temperature in 5, 10 or usually 25 degree increments, Fahrenheit.  So the temperature accuracy and precision is probably not in the same neighborhood as the Control Freak.

It looks like this might effectively be a budget version of the Control Freak concept.  It's interesting, for sure.  I think that "precision cooking" in the traditional sense might be a bit of a stretch of the term, but precision is a general concept so it's not necessarily inaccurate.

Edited May 27, 2023 by afs (log)

[afs]

This video says that the front-left burner on the GE CAFE induction range is accurate within 1 degree.  Very interesting.  Now how do I find somewhere to test one out...
 

 

[palo]

https://www.canadianappliance.ca/product/Cafe_CCHS900P2MS1_Range_Cafe_CCHS900P2MS1.html

 

Might have one in stock😁

 

p

[TheAvidHomeChef]

On 5/27/2023 at 4:41 PM, afs said:

Here are a few things I noticed in the manuals:

• The front left burner has a temperature sensor.
• When in precision cooking mode, one sets the target temperature for the burner.  It looks like the oven may only show the target temperature for the pan, rather than the current temperature of the pan.  It does have a preheating indication.
• In precision cooking mode, the cooktop wants to know if the pan is stainless steel or cast iron or "other".
• Hestan Cue pans can be used with any of the four burners, with a temperature sensor in the pan.
• Only one burner can be used in "precision" mode at the same time.
• They tend to talk about temperature in 5, 10 or usually 25 degree increments, Fahrenheit.  So the temperature accuracy and precision is probably not in the same neighborhood as the Control Freak.

It looks like this might effectively be a budget version of the Control Freak concept.  It's interesting, for sure.  I think that "precision cooking" in the traditional sense might be a bit of a stretch of the term, but precision is a general concept so it's not necessarily inaccurate.

 On the manual for the Cafe one, it says the temperature range for the precision burner is 100F to 425F. That does sound like it's not as precise as the Control Freak. But again, do you think there are recipes that need below 100F cooking temperature?

 

Something I also noticed that's different from the control freak is: the screen on this Cafe cooktop doesn't tell you the actual temperature. It only give you the number for the set temperature. This kind of defeats the purpose of the precise temperature. Knowing where I'm in the pre-heating is at is quite important. Here's a review that reveals something not so great about it:

 

 

 

 

It would be a better idea if the controls are displayed on the large screen above it. But I guess that's a separate product. It already got the recipe guidance. I don't why they can't put that up there.

[afs]

1 hour ago, TheAvidHomeChef said:

Something I also noticed that's different from the control freak is: the screen on this Cafe cooktop doesn't tell you the actual temperature. It only give you the number for the set temperature. This kind of defeats the purpose of the precise temperature. Knowing where I'm in the pre-heating is at is quite important. Here's a review that reveals something not so great about it:

 

Well you've convinced me to pull this one off my list of cooktops to investigate, at least in its current iteration.  An accurate measurement of the current temperature is something I use all the time on the Control Freak, and accuracy within a degree or two is pretty darn useful as well.


src: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/cafe-5-7-cu-ft-slide-in-electric-induction-true-convection-range-with-steam-cleaning-and-in-oven-camera-customizable-stainless-steel/6360807.p?skuId=6360807

BTW, here's the photo from the reviewer on Best Buy's website who says that GE's cooktop temperature sensor isn't sealed well, and that it's a design issue rather than a faulty unit.  It looks like this is more of a spring-loaded temperature probe than the kind of clean integrated solution I'm used to with the Control Freaks.

 

I also noticed that the temperature sensor is on a small-to-medium coil, not on the larger coil.  I am not sure if it's useful for 24-28cm pans (~9-11") pans, or more useful for 14-20cm (~6"-8") pans.

Maybe one of these otherwise-capable companies could do a deal with Breville and bring their tech (still under patent in the U.S. market for probably another decade) to a range unit.  Or maybe other markets will see innovative large-format cooktops first, and then they can import them to us after we've salivated over them for a few years.

I hate to analyze appliances based on the reviews and photos of others and based on manuals which don't deep-dive into the kind of details that matter to me.  One of the GE stoves has gotten pretty great reviews otherwise, so perhaps this is just an unfortunate chink in otherwise good armor, a feature that shipped too early.

Edited June 18, 2023 by afs (log)

[TheAvidHomeChef]

On 6/18/2023 at 5:20 PM, afs said:

 

Well you've convinced me to pull this one off my list of cooktops to investigate, at least in its current iteration.  An accurate measurement of the current temperature is something I use all the time on the Control Freak, and accuracy within a degree or two is pretty darn useful as well.


src: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/cafe-5-7-cu-ft-slide-in-electric-induction-true-convection-range-with-steam-cleaning-and-in-oven-camera-customizable-stainless-steel/6360807.p?skuId=6360807

BTW, here's the photo from the reviewer on Best Buy's website who says that GE's cooktop temperature sensor isn't sealed well, and that it's a design issue rather than a faulty unit.  It looks like this is more of a spring-loaded temperature probe than the kind of clean integrated solution I'm used to with the Control Freaks.

 

I also noticed that the temperature sensor is on a small-to-medium coil, not on the larger coil.  I am not sure if it's useful for 24-28cm pans (~9-11") pans, or more useful for 14-20cm (~6"-8") pans.

Maybe one of these otherwise-capable companies could do a deal with Breville and bring their tech (still under patent in the U.S. market for probably another decade) to a range unit.  Or maybe other markets will see innovative large-format cooktops first, and then they can import them to us after we've salivated over them for a few years.

I hate to analyze appliances based on the reviews and photos of others and based on manuals which don't deep-dive into the kind of details that matter to me.  One of the GE stoves has gotten pretty great reviews otherwise, so perhaps this is just an unfortunate chink in otherwise good armor, a feature that shipped too early.

 

I have also read reviews of GE's cafe line. Many of their product looks like Breville's, such as the coffee machine. It seems like they try to do affordable version of Breville's products which is great but their design is no where near Breville's. Like this temperature sensor should have a rubber silicone seal between the gaps. Only Breville can do this level of attention to details.

 

Recently I came across a startup company that's doing a similar product as the Control Freak but for the households. It's called Kitchen Automatique. I had a few email exchange with the co-founders already. Their product sound pretty promising!

 

 

[chromedome]

I just tripped across an interesting wrinkle on the whole theme of induction cooktops that's targeting the (substantial) number of households that aren't capable of supporting full-power induction without electrical upgrades. Their solution? Battery storage within the appliance, so the induction coil is powered directly from the battery (ie, wattage not limited by 120V wiring) and the direct electrical connection is used only for charging. Apparently at least one or two other startups are pursuing similar solutions.

https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2023-05/bto-peer-2023-copper-street.pdf

[dtremit]

On 1/2/2024 at 7:27 AM, chromedome said:

I just tripped across an interesting wrinkle on the whole theme of induction cooktops that's targeting the (substantial) number of households that aren't capable of supporting full-power induction without electrical upgrades. Their solution? Battery storage within the appliance, so the induction coil is powered directly from the battery (ie, wattage not limited by 120V wiring) and the direct electrical connection is used only for charging. Apparently at least one or two other startups are pursuing similar solutions.

https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2023-05/bto-peer-2023-copper-street.pdf

 

I believe that's how the upcoming Impulse cooktop works:

 

https://www.impulselabs.com

I'm not sure that $5500 for a 30" cooktop really addresses the segment of the market that's looking to avoid the cost of a 240v circuit, though they claim a significant percentage may be covered by tax incentives. Also looks like it's way too big to put an oven underneath.

 

The 10kw peak output per burner is intriguing, though — presumably a boost mode, but they claim to be able to boil a liter of water in 40 seconds.

 

If I had rooftop solar, this would definitely be an interesting option.

Edited March 27 by dtremit (log)

[Ravi Mehra]

On 5/15/2023 at 3:19 PM, afs said:

I have a Hestan Cue, a One Top, a Vollrath HPI4-3800 and a couple Control Freaks here.  I'll share my experience.  Your results may vary.

The Control Freak is a different class of device than the others.  It has really tight temperature control and it measures the temperature of the pan with a contact sensor.  It works really well for precision cooking, using small and medium-sized pans.  Compared to anything else in the 1800W class, I haven't found anything else which compares.  Breville got a patent on their design a decade or so ago, and I suspect it will be a while before we see anything which competes well against it.  I just wish they'd make a high-wattage version with a large coil.

The Vollrath is a nice induction unit but, unlike the Control Freak, it does not have a pan-contact temperature sensor.  If you ramp up the power ("temperature") slowly and you have quite a bit of thermal load in the pan, the under-glass temperature sensor might work for your application.  And if you're cooking something with a temperature probe sticking into the pot, the Vollrath might also work for you. 

Just be aware that the Vollrath units' temperature accuracy/precision claims are almost surely related to the temperature probe, not to the pan temperature control.  The first time I tested my HPI-3800, I put an induction-compatible copper pan on it and set it to a medium temperature and it quickly shot up to temperatures that threatened to warp the pan (500F+, 260C+) but didn't realize the pan was above the set temperature.  I think the product is designed for and marketed towards commercial kitchens, rather than precision-cooking chefs.

I’m exploring countertop units for use on 15 amp plugs and narrowed it down to the Control Freak (CF) and the Vollrath MPI4-1800S. Based on afs’s feedback, the CF is the overall better option but after reading a few CF reviews, I have a few concerns and I’m curious what others think. There’s almost no reviews I could find on the Vollrath, especially the newer 4-series  (except for afs thoughts in this thread), so hoping this forum has some insights.

 

Concern 1

 

From an Amazon review on the CF:

 

“The problem is it uses pulse width modulation to simmer, the same as my $100 Duxtop. That means that to use 20% power, for example, it turns full on for two seconds and full off for eight seconds, averaging 20%. But when it's full on it brings the oats to a full boil and foams enough to overflow, the same as my $100 Duxtop. If simmer is important to you save your money would be my advice.”

 

Vollrath on the other hand states the 4-series units have “Patented circuitry delivers steady heat. No power cycling.”

 

This seems like a pretty big advantage for Vollrath for simmering purposes. Continuous heat versus on/off cycles.

 

Concern 2

 

CF’s physical size, weight, and fan noise all seem arguably worse when compared to the Vollrath. Maybe CF is just better built and that warrants it being bigger/louder but the added heft/noise will likely affect how often the unit gets used.

 

Concern 3

 

As per afs’s comments, CF has much better temperature control than the Vollrath but reviews on the CF seem mixed on how precise it actually is. Reviews mention the CF can undershoot or overshoot by 10F although it’s generally pretty good and there are pan specific nuances. However, if CF isn’t always that precise, I wonder how much the loss of precision that the Vollrath’s under the glass sensor really matters for everyday cooking.

 

Concern 4

 

CF reviews indicate the pan sensor is finicky and doesn’t detect some types of pans and pan sizes, even ones that are designed for induction cooking like the Demeyere Atlantis line. Maybe Vollrath has the same problem but no reviews to know if that’s the case.

[KennethT]

21 minutes ago, Ravi Mehra said:

 

I’m exploring countertop units for use on 15 amp plugs and narrowed it down to the Control Freak (CF) and the Vollrath MPI4-1800S. Based on afs’s feedback, the CF is the overall better option but after reading a few CF reviews, I have a few concerns and I’m curious what others think. There’s almost no reviews I could find on the Vollrath, especially the newer 4-series  (except for afs thoughts in this thread), so hoping this forum has some insights.

 

Concern 1

 

From an Amazon review on the CF:

 

“The problem is it uses pulse width modulation to simmer, the same as my $100 Duxtop. That means that to use 20% power, for example, it turns full on for two seconds and full off for eight seconds, averaging 20%. But when it's full on it brings the oats to a full boil and foams enough to overflow, the same as my $100 Duxtop. If simmer is important to you save your money would be my advice.”

 

Vollrath on the other hand states the 4-series units have “Patented circuitry delivers steady heat. No power cycling.”

 

This seems like a pretty big advantage for Vollrath for simmering purposes. Continuous heat versus on/off cycles.

 

Concern 2

 

CF’s physical size, weight, and fan noise all seem arguably worse when compared to the Vollrath. Maybe CF is just better built and that warrants it being bigger/louder but the added heft/noise will likely affect how often the unit gets used.

 

Concern 3

 

As per afs’s comments, CF has much better temperature control than the Vollrath but reviews on the CF seem mixed on how precise it actually is. Reviews mention the CF can undershoot or overshoot by 10F although it’s generally pretty good and there are pan specific nuances. However, if CF isn’t always that precise, I wonder how much the loss of precision that the Vollrath’s under the glass sensor really matters for everyday cooking.

 

Concern 4

 

CF reviews indicate the pan sensor is finicky and doesn’t detect some types of pans and pan sizes, even ones that are designed for induction cooking like the Demeyere Atlantis line. Maybe Vollrath has the same problem but no reviews to know if that’s the case.

 

I don't have a CF - just a Vollrath HPI4-2600.  It has no problems recognizing any of the pans that I have.  And I can confirm that it does simmering on low power perfectly (just like gas would with no cycling) and I love the fact that you can adjust the output in 1% increments.  I don't use the pan temp sensor very often, but I find it works pretty well if you ramp the temp up a bit initially rather than using the final temp as the first setpoint.  I don't do super precision stuff, but if I want a consistent 350F for pan frying, it's fine for that.  The probe is great for liquids.  I don't know about accuracy to within 0.5 degrees or anything, but I can select a gentle simmer and walk away knowing it will be fine and won't either stop simmering or simmer too hard.

[afs]

It's cool to see you doing a bunch of research.  Like minds. 

If you will, please let me chip in here with a few thoughts.  Don't rely on my observations to make your decisions; hopefully this is helpful though.  [KennethT also made some good observations.]

 

1 hour ago, Ravi Mehra said:

 

“The problem is it uses pulse width modulation to simmer, the same as my $100 Duxtop. That means that to use 20% power, for example, it turns full on for two seconds and full off for eight seconds, averaging 20%. But when it's full on it brings the oats to a full boil and foams enough to overflow, the same as my $100 Duxtop. If simmer is important to you save your money would be my advice.”

 

Vollrath on the other hand states the 4-series units have “Patented circuitry delivers steady heat. No power cycling.”

 

Based on my wattage measurements, the Vollrath gear does indeed basically output a variable amount of wattage depending on the % output you've specified (when it's in "% output" mode).  The Control Freak is almost always operating in "maintain temperature" mode, so you'll see some cycling on/off of energy under certain circumstances.  Setting its ramping speed to slow or medium may solve those issues for you, if they're issues.  I do remember seeing this at one point, and I either started using deeper pots or a lower intensity level.  The default intensity level on the Control Freak is "fast" and often people don't think to turn that intensity down.

 

1 hour ago, Ravi Mehra said:

CF’s physical size, weight, and fan noise all seem arguably worse when compared to the Vollrath. Maybe CF is just better built and that warrants it being bigger/louder but the added heft/noise will likely affect how often the unit gets used.

 

I've never purchased a medium-wattage (e.g. 1500-1800 watt) Vollrath unit.  On my higher-wattage (~3500-3800 watt) unit, the fan is definitely noisier than the Control Freak.  And it can turn on sometimes even when one is not cooking.  The Vollrath machines are primarily designed for commercial kitchens with hot temperatures and higher decibel levels and use by professional cooks; the Control Freaks are also designed for commercial kitchens but they also do well in a home environment.  That said, the fan noise is not zero on the Control Freak.  It's not something that bothers me, but if you're someone who does not like white noise (or noise at all) then induction might not be the best choice, generally speaking.  The tradeoff for cooling the electronics and keeping the room cooler is noise.

 

As far as size and weight, the new "Control Freak Home" might be a better comparison to the Vollrath 1800W unit.  The regular Control Freak units are oversized, somewhat washdown-capable, etc.--built for the abuses of a commercial kitchen.  I've never owned a medium-wattage Vollrath; my high-wattage Vollrath is quite big--but the 1800W units are presumably more svelte.

 

1 hour ago, Ravi Mehra said:

As per afs’s comments, CF has much better temperature control than the Vollrath but reviews on the CF seem mixed on how precise it actually is. Reviews mention the CF can undershoot or overshoot by 10F although it’s generally pretty good and there are pan specific nuances. However, if CF isn’t always that precise, I wonder how much the loss of precision that the Vollrath’s under the glass sensor really matters for everyday cooking.

 

The Vollrath units seem to measure pan temperature by measuring the surface temperature of the cooktop surface from underneath the glass.  If you're worried about overshoot, the Vollrath units are unlikely to win in this category--especially when the pans are empty or mostly empty.  If you're boiling water or cooking something with lots of liquid, the accuracy of the cooktop temperature on the Vollrath will be more suitable for that.  I can easily overshoot by a lot in a highly-conductive pan on my Vollrath unit.  I think of the Vollrath units as commercial cooktops which are designed primarily for "% output" based cooking but that can also use a temperature probe for maintaining temperature; the pan temperature feature is something that would be useful from time to time if I didn't have a Control Freak, but not something I would be comfortable with for daily cooking.  Your results may vary.

 

One nifty thing about the Vollrath is that it can still deliver power to a pan even when it's a little ways from the surface of the cooktop.  For cooks who like lifting and flipping things, that might provide a more consistent transition from gas to induction.

 

1 hour ago, Ravi Mehra said:

CF reviews indicate the pan sensor is finicky and doesn’t detect some types of pans and pan sizes, even ones that are designed for induction cooking like the Demeyere Atlantis line. Maybe Vollrath has the same problem but no reviews to know if that’s the case.

 

I have not had any issues with my Control Freaks and Atlantis pans, but as I understand it the Control Freak is a bit more protective about when it will turn on (from a safety perspective) than some induction cooktops. 

 

Unfortunately, there is no industry-common specification for how to make an induction-compatible pan or how to guarantee that an induction cooktop will work with all pans marketed as induction-compatible.  Some materials such as specific 400-series stainless steel and cast iron are induction-compatible.  Others (like some 300-series stainless steel) are not.  A few companies may use a thin layer of non-induction-compatible metal as an exterior coating/layer over their induction-compatible pan bottom in order to make the pans easier to clean and more rust-resistant.  Sometimes those design decisions were made when induction-compatible pans were only tested against simple induction cooktops that didn't have the opportunity to include some modern computerized safety checks.  And yes, those pans will work on most induction cooktops.  They may work on your Control Freak as well.  They might not.  Again, I have personally not had any problems--but it may be that the thickness or material can vary a bit from pan to pan and some people are less "lucky."

 

Some people have pans and are looking for a cooktop that works with them.  Some people are buying a cooktop and want to find compatible pans.  Other people just want to future-proof things.  Future-proofing is one of the reasons I picked up Falk Copper Coeur pans as my primary collection; they're not dishwasher-style pans but I know they'll work just about anywhere.  But I also picked up some Demeyere pans to see how they did, knowing that I could return them if they didn't work.  And they worked fine on the cooktop while also proving to be useful for certain cooking applications.

[Laurentius]

4 hours ago, KennethT said:

And I can confirm that it does simmering on low power perfectly (just like gas would with no cycling) and I love the fact that you can adjust the output in 1% increments.  I don't use the pan temp sensor very often, but I find it works pretty well

 

I have a Vollrath Mirage Pro.  You are right that the 100-step increments work well for as low as you want to go, including yeast rehydration.  I'm generally very happy with it

 

HOWEVER, (1)  The unit does cycle in both % and temperature modes.  I've wasted a lot of time trying to map the cycles using a Kill-A-Watt, and while the wattage output levels (and their swings) vary by setting intensity, they definitely do cycle.

(2)  I find the temperature settings completely worthless.  They're wildly inaccurate in general and they never agree between different pans.  (3)  The case exhaust fans stop when heat is is turned off.  This is a bad feature, considering the Ceran can get nearly as hot as any pan--many commercial countertop units include fans that will run until the case interior is cool. 

[KennethT]

20 minutes ago, Laurentius said:

 

I have a Vollrath Mirage Pro.  You are right that the 100-step increments work well for as low as you want to go, including yeast rehydration.  I'm generally very happy with it

 

HOWEVER, (1)  The unit does cycle in both % and temperature modes.  I've wasted a lot of time trying to map the cycles using a Kill-A-Watt, and while the wattage output levels (and their swings) vary by setting intensity, they definitely do cycle.

(2)  I find the temperature settings completely worthless.  They're wildly inaccurate in general and they never agree between different pans.  (3)  The case exhaust fans stop when heat is is turned off.  This is a bad feature, considering the Ceran can get nearly as hot as any pan--many commercial countertop units include fans that will run until the case interior is cool. 

I would be wary of directly comparing your experience with the Mirage Pro and ours with the HPI4 series as they are entirely different.  The Vollrath website very clearly states the features of each - the HPI4 series is much more advanced and meant to be used in professional kitchens.  In fact, not using it in a professional kitchen will void the warranty.  But an example of the differences, your case (3) - my HPI4 unit's fan does not stop when the heat is turned off - it's runtime is governed by the internal temperature.  If I cook for a long time at low power, the fan will turn off immediately since the internals are not stressed by doing that and their heat sinks are adequate alone, however, if I am cooking (even for a short time) at high power, the fan will continue to run once powered down.  Once the fan stops, it does not restart again.  Plus, the fan runtime post power down varies depending on the usage - it's not just on a timer.

 

Note - the fan is not intended to cool the cooktop, it is intended to cool the power semiconductors that provide power to the induction coil.  In my unit, the LCD screen displays "HOT" while the cooktop is still hot to moderately warm to the touch, even once the fan turns off.  When I use the unit to make stock in a pressure cooker, once finished cooking I turn the power off but leave the pressure cooker on the cooktop for a natural pressure release which takes time.  The fan turns off relatively quickly (if not instantly if using only 5% power to maintain pressure), but "HOT" is displayed the entire time - even after 30-40 minutes if I don't get around to removing the stockpot for a while.

[Laurentius]

9 minutes ago, KennethT said:

In fact, not using it in a professional kitchen will void the warranty. 

 

They used to say the same thing about the VMP.

 

Have you charted the temperature settings to gauge their accuracy?  Have you measured the wattage drawn to check whether it cycles?

 

11 minutes ago, KennethT said:

Note - the fan is not intended to cool the cooktop, it is intended to cool the power semiconductors that provide power to the induction coil. 

 

This is a distinction without a difference, since everything sits confined within a few inches of the hot Ceran.  This is by far the biggest source of heat in the case, although there would be some from hysteresis losses in the coil itself.  If your point is that the glass itself needn't be cooled, fine, but the fans exist to vent air heated by the glass.

[KennethT]

30 minutes ago, Laurentius said:

 

 the fans exist to vent air heated by the glass.

Sorry but this is incorrect.  The fans exist to vent air to the heat sinks to which the power diodes are attached.

[Laurentius]

1 hour ago, KennethT said:

The fans exist to vent air to the heat sinks to which the power diodes are attached.

 

The fans may move air across heat sinks, but they're intended to vent air heated by the glass and hysteresis loss.

 

How hot do you think those diodes get?

[Laurentius]

Hey, here's a challenge for anyone whose PIC has a fan that can run even after the heat is turned off:

 

Run a largish pot of oil up to 360F and put it atop the plugged-in PIC without turning it on.  Will the fan come on?

[Ravi Mehra]

Thanks @afs and @KennethT for your thoughts. I'm leaning towards the CF Home now, mainly for the temp precision benefits.

 

20 hours ago, afs said:

Based on my wattage measurements, the Vollrath gear does indeed basically output a variable amount of wattage depending on the % output you've specified (when it's in "% output" mode).  The Control Freak is almost always operating in "maintain temperature" mode, so you'll see some cycling on/off of energy under certain circumstances.  Setting its ramping speed to slow or medium may solve those issues for you, if they're issues.  I do remember seeing this at one point, and I either started using deeper pots or a lower intensity level.  The default intensity level on the Control Freak is "fast" and often people don't think to turn that intensity down.

I didn't know CF had an intensity setting. That sounds promising to "temper the flames" when attempting a light simmer. It also sounds like the Vollrath will also cycle if you set it to temp mode instead of % output mode so that also negates the concern here (although I lose out on having the % output functionality if going w/ the CF).

 

20 hours ago, afs said:

I've never purchased a medium-wattage (e.g. 1500-1800 watt) Vollrath unit.  On my higher-wattage (~3500-3800 watt) unit, the fan is definitely noisier than the Control Freak.  And it can turn on sometimes even when one is not cooking.  The Vollrath machines are primarily designed for commercial kitchens with hot temperatures and higher decibel levels and use by professional cooks; the Control Freaks are also designed for commercial kitchens but they also do well in a home environment.  That said, the fan noise is not zero on the Control Freak.  It's not something that bothers me, but if you're someone who does not like white noise (or noise at all) then induction might not be the best choice, generally speaking.  The tradeoff for cooling the electronics and keeping the room cooler is noise.

I wish there were more reviews of the 1800 watt 4-series. I can't find the source of where I got the idea that the Vollrath was quieter than the CF but it could be the opposite. Maybe I read that the Mirage series was quieter than CF but that doesn't necessarily translate to the 4-series.

 

20 hours ago, afs said:

As far as size and weight, the new "Control Freak Home" might be a better comparison to the Vollrath 1800W unit.  The regular Control Freak units are oversized, somewhat washdown-capable, etc.--built for the abuses of a commercial kitchen.  I've never owned a medium-wattage Vollrath; my high-wattage Vollrath is quite big--but the 1800W units are presumably more svelte.

Comparisons below. The Vollrath and CF Home have similar volume but Vollrath is likely the heaviest of all three. I couldn't find the weight of the CF Home but likely a couple pounds lower than the CF.

 

Model	Dimensions (in)	Volume (in3)	Weight (lbs)
MPI4-1800S	13.375 x 17.812 x 3.5	834	18.64
CF	13.7 x 18.5 x 4.3	1090	16.2
CF Home	12.2 x 16.9 x 4.1	845	unknown

 

20 hours ago, afs said:

The Vollrath units seem to measure pan temperature by measuring the surface temperature of the cooktop surface from underneath the glass.  If you're worried about overshoot, the Vollrath units are unlikely to win in this category--especially when the pans are empty or mostly empty.  If you're boiling water or cooking something with lots of liquid, the accuracy of the cooktop temperature on the Vollrath will be more suitable for that.  I can easily overshoot by a lot in a highly-conductive pan on my Vollrath unit.  I think of the Vollrath units as commercial cooktops which are designed primarily for "% output" based cooking but that can also use a temperature probe for maintaining temperature; the pan temperature feature is something that would be useful from time to time if I didn't have a Control Freak, but not something I would be comfortable with for daily cooking.  Your results may vary.

Ack, sounds like the under the glass sensor won't really cut it.

 

20 hours ago, afs said:

Some people have pans and are looking for a cooktop that works with them.  Some people are buying a cooktop and want to find compatible pans.  Other people just want to future-proof things.  Future-proofing is one of the reasons I picked up Falk Copper Coeur pans as my primary collection; they're not dishwasher-style pans but I know they'll work just about anywhere.  But I also picked up some Demeyere pans to see how they did, knowing that I could return them if they didn't work.  And they worked fine on the cooktop while also proving to be useful for certain cooking applications.

 The Falk Copper Coeur line looks great. I would consider them but am too fixated on rivet-less pans (maybe to a fault).

[afs]

2 hours ago, Ravi Mehra said:

I didn't know CF had an intensity setting. That sounds promising to "temper the flames" when attempting a light simmer. It also sounds like the Vollrath will also cycle if you set it to temp mode instead of % output mode so that also negates the concern here (although I lose out on having the % output functionality if going w/ the CF).

 

The higher-end Vollrath gear might actually use a variable consistent output when used in temperature control mode (especially when using the probe), but I haven't tested that.  Vollrath makes a lot of gear and different Vollrath lines may have different characteristics (and different price points to match).  I'd hesitate to rely on a comparison of an I4 cooktop to one of their more-consumer-like models.

 

2 hours ago, Ravi Mehra said:

I wish there were more reviews of the 1800 watt 4-series. I can't find the source of where I got the idea that the Vollrath was quieter than the CF but it could be the opposite. Maybe I read that the Mirage series was quieter than CF but that doesn't necessarily translate to the 4-series.

Yeah, that's the rub...  I don't know how the various series compare.  And my I4 unit is high power so its fan might be more aggressive than the others (or maybe less aggressive, since it also has the benefit of being larger and I mostly use it at <1800W power anyway).

 

2 hours ago, Ravi Mehra said:

Thanks @afs and @KennethT for your thoughts. I'm leaning towards the CF Home now, mainly for the temp precision benefits.

 

The Control Freak Home looks pretty stellar.  I'd also love to pick one up.  If you get one, please let us know how it works for you.  And if you get the Vollrath unit, please let us know what you learned there too!

[Raamo]

https://arstechnica.com/health/2024/05/new-research-shows-gas-stove-emissions-contribute-to-19000-deaths-annually/

 

I love induction.  But I don't think this will change much any time soon.

[Ravi Mehra]

Ended up purchasing the CFH. Hopefully, it will stand the test of time.

 

Before making the decision, I was trying to compare the heating coil differences between the CF and the Vollrath. I messaged Vollrath customer service on the coil diameter of the MPI4-1800S unit and got back the following response. Leaving it here as an FYI. AFAIK, the coil on the CF has an outer diameter of 10" (unknown inner diameter) so the Vollrath is quite a bit smaller (but should be able to handle smaller pans better).

 

Quote

 

Total diameter is about 7.6”.

Inner coil is 4.17”. There is a small gap separating the two.

 

 

[chromedome]

Saw this today on Wired, and couldn't agree more. I've said repeatedly (including here, IIRC) that aside from its other virtues induction would be a great technology as we age and become forgetful in the kitchen, because of the safety features, reduced risk of serious burns, etc, BUT... For the love of all that's holy, put knobs on the #*#!! things!

 

https://www.wired.com/story/touch-controls-on-stoves-suck-knobs-are-way-better

 

[Laurentius]

2 hours ago, chromedome said:

Saw this today on Wired, and couldn't agree more.

 

Add my name to the agreement.

 

Your point about "as we age" is well-taken.  But your best one is how the detestable keypads vitiate both the safety and cooking impulses for the aged and forgetful.  What point is there in having a Demeyere ControlInduc pan (which limits max temp) if you can't or won't use the appliance?

 

 I have read that Julia Child, of all people, was sentenced to using induction because of her progressing dementia.  Despite the paving of that road with good intentions, I can't help but wonder if she gave up when saddled with the beeping keypad.