Apple Pie

[B Edulis]

I usually mix a number of varieties of cooking apples for pies and have been pleased with the result. Recently, I used all Fujis and found them to be a bit too sweet -- I shoulda added lemon juice, I think. My eclectic approach hasn't been helpful in determining the various qualities of flavor, aroma, texture and juicyness that different varieties have. Which are your favorites, and why?

Also, how do you season you apple pie? I favor equal, spare amounts of nutmeg and cinnamon, but I'd love to hear other ideas.

[A Balic]

I am lucky enough to be able to get several dozen different types of apples (they are all rare-ish British types so I won't bore you with names). I use a pie dish and a top crust only (not as American as apple pie), using this as a basis I mix several different varietys, some that hold their shape, some that turn to mush, that have different flavours and acidities, to get an interesting pie as I can. I use cloves and coriander (seeds) as a flavouring.  The cloves bring out the apple flavours and the coriander gives a slight orange flavour to the pie. Some times I add some poached quince fo interest.

[helenas]

i usually use rosemary, and winesap apples when in season.

My recent favorite recipe is Lady's Apple Cake from Patricia Wells' Paris cookbook, and it's pretty similar to apple cake from "French Farmers Cooking" by Loomis.

Actually, the first time i found this recipe here:

http://www.divinacucina.com/code/torta.html

(Edited by helena sarin at 12:56 pm on Jan. 23, 2002)

[wingding]

It depends on where you live...on the east coast most local apples have now been in storage for a few months,and their texture isn't as crisp,and the flavor is flatter,as they were in the fall.I use golden delicious early in the season,then move on to mutsus,and grannysmiths in the early winter.Flavoring is up to you-if the apples are delicious,vanilla,lemon,and a little spice are sufficient.Tart tatin is wonderful for apples that don't collapse into mush.In general,the tartest  most densely textured apples are best for pie[in my opinion].

[jaybee]

The apple "pie" I make most often is tarte tatin. From my first taste in a Paris bistro I fell in love with this dish and vowed to learn to make it.  I use Granny Smith or Golden Delicious apples.  I don't think the variety preferred in France are available here.  Julia Child's tip to let the sliced apples sit in a mixture of lemon juice and sugar for about 20 minutes before cooking in the caramel was key.  They lose a lot of their water, absorb more butter and sugar and keep their firmness.  Some lemon zest and a little nutmeg add good depth to the taste.  I use vanilla sugar which I make by storing 5 lbs of sugar with cut up vanilla beans in a cannister.  I'd welcome other apple variety suggestions from tatin fanciers.

[B Edulis]

Wow, coriander! rosemary! Can't wait to try them -- separately, of course. The tips on which apples are which are really helpful -- it never occured to me that an apple would change further along into the season. Thanx!

Tart tatin is wonderful, of course. Truely wonderful (Homer Simpson gurgling icon). Especially with quince. But I've never seen it bring a tear to an American's eye. My apple pie has.... It's gotta be the comfort factor.

[Sandra Levine]

.In general,the tartest  most densely textured apples are best for pie

Northern Spy fit that description, if you can find them in the fall.  I like to mix two varieties -- Northern Spy or Granny Smith and one or two Mackintoshes.  The result is a more complex texture.  Did you ever try pouring a cream over the apples before putting on the top crust?  A decadent delight, especially with nutmeg.

[Peter B Wolf]

My wife, that's right she does the baking in this family, uses Cortlands, finely diced candied Ginger enhances. She also uses a brise dough, where a third of the flour is replaced by ground Hazelnuts. Julia Child's tip about the lemon juice is a must, plus in addition: a shot of Calvados to marinate in.

[B Edulis]

Cream....ginger....Calvados....hazelnuts....great ideas! I'm printing this out and taking it with me to the market this morning. I'm so excited about the apple mixes....

[Steve Klc]

I think the key thing here in a discussion of apples is what some have touched on already--now isn't the time to talk about great, flavorful apple possibilities--and funky, mottled but oh-so-flavorful "heirloom" apples--because none of those varieties are available anymore and haven't been for months.

There is a small window for heirlooms--and may I recommend a charming little book called "Apples" by Roger Yepsen for anyone interested in learning more about these odd, old, regional apple varieties.

Ashmead's Kernel, Calville blanc, Esopus Spitzenburg and Newtown Pippin (or Black Twig) have been my favorites for baking and special desserts--they are incredibly deep, tart, complex and interesting compared to the varieties seen on supermarket shelves.  I'm lucky to live near a vineyard--Linden--in Virginia that inherited heirloom apple trees and has made an effort to grow and harvest them, selling the fruit to the public first-come, first-served.  Jim Law is the vintner and he has been directly responsible for a few of my best apple desserts ever, solely because the fruit was so special.

Here's the link:

http://www.lindenvineyards.com/lindenvineyards/cfm/orcha.cfm

I've brought them to Florida and to New York for events and restaurants.  The Yepsen book is a great guide to find out which apples can be held, stored through the winter and a few actually improve with age, though I never seem to have left to test out this hypothesis.

To add to the spice and flavorings list--I love saffron with apples, especially saffron with apples and chocolate.  I've also found that the better the apple, the less the need for spice--which allows the character of the apple to come through.  Which is why I like saffron so much--it's subtle when used with a light hand.

And remember, Adam is talking about coriander the seed--the spice--not the leafy herb--and by recommending mixtures like coriander and clove he's really giving us all a culinary history lesson, harkening back to the middle ages when exotic and expensive spice mixtures were the way to show what wealth and influence you had.  To the two Adam mentioned, you could add black pepper and cinnamon for instance and have an amazingly fragrant apple pie.

Diced apples sauteed in a bit of wine, lemon juice and all of these spices--perhaps with a few raisins and diced figs thrown in--then folded up in wonton skins and deep fried is another way to enjoy them beside pie--and perhaps a little closer, historically, to the way apples were more commonly enjoyed way back when--for fires and deep-frying in lard was just as common as baking a pie in a heated skillet (with a heated lid in the fire, too).  Oven evolution and dissemination out into the towns happened much later.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

I'm so thankful, Steve, for your thoughts. I never use spice of any kind in fruit pies, prefering the clean taste of good fruit at its peak.  We use Golden Delicious or Gravenstein from trees in our yard, sugar, butter, a little lemon juice. Spiced fruit desserts can be tremenously interesting, but fruit with only sugar, butter and/or cream is what I find delicious.

[B Edulis]

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I'm beginning to see that there could be an entire cookbook devoted to apple pies and their cousins. BTW, there's a recipe for a pie-like apple confit in the Jean George/Mark Bittman cookbook. If memory serves, it takes over 24 hours to make and has only 3 ingredients.

Quote: from Steve Klc on 10:08 am on Jan. 26, 2002

now isn't the time to talk about great, flavorful apple possibilities--and funky, mottled but oh-so-flavorful "heirloom" apples--because none of those varieties are available anymore and haven't been for months.

In the teen's, 1920s and 1930s my grandfather had a farm that specialized in a wide variety of fruit and fruit trees. My mother said he grew one type of apple that was supposed to store especially well -- I think the name was "Ben Grimm" (or is that the alter-name of the Incredible Hulk?). Anyway, she said they were terrible -- tasteless and hard; my uncle said they were only useful as doorstops. I guess it's no wonder we don't hear of that heirloom variety today!

[Steve Klc]

where was the farm?  In that Yepsen book, there's a cute story about a variety called "Ben Davis," grown primarily in the South and Midwest, then floated down the Mississippi on barges to new Orleans.  Yepsen describes it as having "the toughness of a potato" and quotes an apple merchant as saying that "It keeps like a rock but it's not a very good rock."

and you have it on something by recalling that great apple dish from the first Jean-Georges book--kind of like scalloped potatoes.  But the larger issue is the great value of slow roasted fruit--and how even less-than perfect fresh fruits can be enhanced by roasting in the oven, with sugars and spices and sweet wines, basted just like a turkey.

[B Edulis]

Wow, Ben Davis! I'll bet that's it. My grandfather's farm was in the Alleghenny Mountains in southwestern Pennsylvania. But, as I mentioned, he specialized in unusual fruits, so maybe that's why he had one so far afield. There's really no one alive to ask, tho' the farm's still in the family and so maybe one day we can check the old trees and find out. I think apple trees can live a long time....

[helenas]

always in search for interesting things to do with apples:

here is the swedish apple cake:

http://www.santesson.com/recept/skappel.htm

Has anybody tried something like this?

[Steve Klc]

No, but the Swedish apple cake at IKEA is actually not half bad.

[Steve Klc]

and here's a link to an interesting article, on one level about apples but also dipping into issues of free trade, globalism, distribution, first brought to my attention by the wonderful Virginia Postrel of http://www.dynamist.com/scene.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/01/nyregion/01BIG.html

couldn't decide whether to post this here or on the Davos/World Economic forum thread.  Virginia goes on to remark that "It's amazing how often opponents of international trade voice a hatred for fresh produce."

(Edited by Steve Klc at 4:38 pm on Feb. 4, 2002)

[B Edulis]

That's an interesting article, but I've got to take issue with a central point-- the reason heirlooms and more varieties of apples with real flavor are available here in recent years. She says it was because of competition from New Zealand -- I suspect that it was a direct result of the demands of an increasingly food savvy populace -- gourmets and natural foodies.

She also seems to set up the anarchists as straw dogs -- it doesn't seem that they want to "dictate" who eats what apples -- just level the playing field. Course, that a whole other discussion, and one I don't think I'm particularly informed about.

Getting back to the original thread -- I got some Granny Smiths and found them to be almost tasteless. Is this the norm?

[wingding]

The commonly available,'mass grown' grannysmiths have become increasingly horrid over the past few years;in fact they often seem to have an odd chemical taste to me.Truly good grannysmiths arediiicult to find at all,especially at this time of the year.Look for a local fruit disributor who has kept some god varietals in storage,that's your best bet [in February,anyway].

[Steve Klc]

Lots of people bake with them; I don't.  Granny Smiths have some pleasant tartness and acidity and I like them in applications which retain this cool, fresh, brisk quality.  I've done a few sorbets with them--green apple alone or w/celery/fennel combinations--which tend to work well with meringue or milk foams in a pre-dessert, possibly with an herb like rosemary.  You could build out from this to create a plated dessert (in a glass) by adding some of the apple done another way--so in addition to raw batons of the green apple perhaps hide some confit or candied version under the foam.

So green apple confit/applesauce on the bottom of the glass, then a meringue/milk foam, then green apple sorbet scoop or quenelle, then raw matchsticks of apple piled up on top of the sorbet, perhaps with a small sprig of lemon thyme, small leaf of lemon verbena or sprinkle of rosemary--then a spritz of lime juice.

This would be especially satisfying after a heavy meal, heavily-spiced meal or Asian-influenced cuisines like Viet or Thai.

I agree with wingding that reliability of green apples has declined--so too have Asian pears (which are really apples) in a similar way.  It used to be hard to find a bad one, now whole flats are without perfume and woody to boot.

wingding--what have you done with green apples or Asian pears?

[Sandra Levine]

most local apples have now been in storage for a few months,and their texture isn't as crisp,and the flavor is flatter

That's why I make apple pie only in the fall.

(Edited by Sandra Levine at 10:11 am on Feb. 5, 2002)

[wingding]

Yow!what happened to my spelling?[maybe it was a longer day than I thought].When  I use grannysmiths at all,it's usually an herb scented green apple sorbet-rosemary,basil/citrus.I haven't used asian pears much-I used to find tasty ones in Chinatown,but feel that their flavor has also become deleted.While I'm on that topic;what the #### has happened to mangoes imported into the U.S.?They all seem to be picked way underipe,are available at all times of the year,and are a mere shadow of the wonderfulness that they can be.The demand for all varieties of fruit,all the time,looking shiny and pretty,but having no flavor,is accelerating;who's buying all this tasteless junk?,and what a waste....

[rlibkind]

I found some Rhode Island Greenings in upstate New York last week (Sook's Orchard, just outside Middletown), my favorite for apple pie. Great tart apple, holds its shape even better than Granny Smith.

What's your favorite apple variety for your basic all-American apple pie?

[Gifted Gourmet]

Granny Smith ... mixed with a few Golden Delicious ...

[Ling]

I use 3 or 4 Fuji apples and 1 or 2 Granny Smith per pie.

I've tried Golden Delicious too, but they ones I bought tasted a little flat and boring.