Okraphobic ..what do you see in this stuff anyway?

[Squeat Mungry]

Squeat,

That okra risotto sounds awesome. Dinner tonight! Thanks!

←

Thanks, Brooks! Enjoy!

(I meant to add that, now that corn is gone and tomatoes are almost gone, a nice fall version of the risotto is to add chunks (or a puree) of roasted squash at the end. This version is nice finished the traditional way with some butter and parmesan. Of course, so is the other version. I mean, what isn't? )

[bleudauvergne]

Knife scraped okra juice added to puree of fruits de mer slow cooked sous vide creates an emulsion of the most amazing qualities that will solidify like jello but better yet can be formed into various shapes like scultping clay. Depending on your base, it can take on different color and opacity. And it tastes amazing. Slice the pod, and scrape the juice perpendicularly from the okra cross cut as it oozes out, bit by bit. Once you have accumulated approximately 140 grams, (this only takes about 5 or 6 hours for a team of 4), then puree that with 500 grams shucked oysters using a 1250 watt industrial immersion blender for 20 minutes while maintaining a temperature of between 60 and 70 degrees celsius, and voila. Okra clay of oyster.

Otherwise I like it fried, simmered, with tomatoes or just plain salt & pepper.

[StudentChefEclipse]

To StudentChefEclipse - in the 25 years I've been making gumbo, I have yet to use any okra.  When I lived in LA, I encountered only a few people who used it in their gumbo and those who did, sauteed it before adding to the pot to get rid of the slime.  If you go into the average small-town cafe in LA, unless the menu specifies that there is okra in the gumbo, there won't be any.  It is not necessary to have okra to have gumbo.

←

Nope. Just to my tastebuds, it doesn't taste like gumbo without the okra. To each his own, no?

And I assume you mean Louisiana by LA... I come from Los Angeles *grins*

[dumplin]

I love okra pan fried in a cast iron skillet. My grandmother used to make it and I love it. The small pods are the best because they aren't tough. You cut the pods across very thin-- 1/8 slices. Discard the stem ends. Cut up a good mess of okra and dump into a bowl. Dump a tablespoon or so of flour or cornmeal on top of the okra and stir to combine. You want to coat the okra. Fry in a hot skillet greased with oil or bacon grease (if you want the calories and saturated fat). I dump the okra in a mesh sieve first to shake out the extra coating...it can burn in the pan. Stir occaisionally for 20 minutes or so. You want the okra golden brown and crispy. Season with salt and drain on a paper towel. Serve hot.

This dish has no okra slime. It's very crunchy.

edit: punctuation

Edited October 22, 2004 by dumplin (log)

[Jason Perlow]

One of my favorite okra dishes is malaysian -- its okra that is flash fried and then sauteed with dried shrimp, chili, shallots and pickled vegetables. This way the okra gets crispy on the outside but has that really cool gelatinous texture on the outside, and the brinyness of the pickled veggies cuts the slimyness. The dried shrimp gives it that salty something.

They also do another version of it sauteed with Sambal Belacan instead of dried shrimp. Belacan is spicy fermented shrimp paste, and when you cook it, it lets out a stink like you would not believe.

EDIT: Apparently they also have a version which uses both:

http://kuali.com/recipes/viewrecipe.asp?r=1885

And yet another interesting okra dish, this one with lemongrass and coconut milk:

http://food.sify.com/recipe.php?id=1326329...76&cid=13293277

[Mayhaw Man]

Knife scraped okra juice added to puree of fruits de mer slow cooked sous vide creates an emulsion of the most amazing qualities that will solidify like jello but better yet can be formed into various shapes like scultping clay.  Depending on your base, it can take on different color and opacity.  And it tastes amazing.    Slice the pod, and scrape the juice perpendicularly from the okra cross cut as it oozes out, bit by bit.  Once you have accumulated approximately 140 grams, (this only takes about 5 or 6 hours for a team of 4), then puree that with 500 grams shucked oysters using a 1250 watt industrial immersion blender for 20 minutes while maintaining a temperature of between 60 and 70 degrees celsius, and voila.  Okra clay of oyster.

Otherwise I like it fried, simmered, with tomatoes or just plain salt & pepper.

←

I'm assembling my team now. I'll get right on it. My wife runs a gallery and I am thinking that "okra juice sculpture" brings a whole new meaning to the term "mixed media". Maybe I could build a big installation and at the end of the show, the audience could eat the art in a joyous orgy of art/food sensory overload. I could film it and get it on the list a Sundance.

Very soon, I am off to Cannes, which puts me closer to Bleudauvergne-I could invite her to the festival and tell all of the enthralled listeners that, "this woman, this brilliant woman standing here beside me, was the inspiration for this whole world changing project and that she deserves all of the credit!"

After Cannes, there would of course, be a book and film tour after the movie and the inevitable book were put into major release (3500 screens first weekend. Lookout Nemo! Okra is coming through).

All of this would cause a world okra shortage (you wondered where I was going with this, didn't you?) and the price would shoot up through the roof. People would be clamoring for the delicious, yet rare, pod and it would finally begin to get it's due. Keller, Adria, even our own Grant would be working with okra in myriad ways. Okra foam, okra gelato, amusee of okra, okra confit, and okra sushi.

This could happen. It is my wish and wishes can come true.

[Carrot Top]

Performance art.

Can I be part of it as a dancing okra pod? Please?

[bleudauvergne]

I'm assembling my team now. I'll get right on it...This could happen. It is my wish and wishes can come true.

I have a firm belief that this will happen, Brooks.

I didn't mention that this same emulsion can be smeared on the face and has skin softening properties. In fact, tests have shown that it will remove 10 years of age with each application.

Again, I see the events in the more formal environment of fine dining wherein the amuse is served, you smear the scrapings of the dish upon your face, and leave it in place through the next course. There is then a break in which a staff member brings hot towels to remove the applied combination facial mask / amuse bouche, and your continue your meal. After the meal people come from the restaurant not only feeling refreshed and renewed, but looking 10 years younger. All coming to you from okra pod technology.

About the impending Okra shortages, I am one step ahead of you, as I envision miles and miles of tent city hothouse okra farms to replace the Spanish tomato and pepper farms existing today. This will be enough to sustain Europe. You'll come up with something for your side of the pond, yes?

edit: Yes, Carrot Top, you may be a dancer. Prepare for your screen test, Brooks will send his crew up. You can PM him for the details.

Edited October 22, 2004 by bleudauvergne (log)

[AmbrosiaFood]

To StudentChefEclipse - in the 25 years I've been making gumbo, I have yet to use any okra.  When I lived in LA, I encountered only a few people who used it in their gumbo and those who did, sauteed it before adding to the pot to get rid of the slime.  If you go into the average small-town cafe in LA, unless the menu specifies that there is okra in the gumbo, there won't be any.  It is not necessary to have okra to have gumbo.

←

I beg to differ! According to all of my literature on the subject, gumbo is called gumbo because it is the the name used by africans for okra!

So how could you have gumbo without it?

[Dr. Funk]

Well, I just looked through 4 Justin Wilson cookbooks, found 13 gumbo recipes and only 4 contained okra. Does that answer your question?

[AmbrosiaFood]

Well, I just looked through 4 Justin Wilson cookbooks, found 13 gumbo recipes and only 4 contained okra.  Does that answer your question?

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It only says that Justin Wilson don't know anything about gumbo! Gumbo is an african word, and africans brought it to this country and developed the first gumbo recipes. Maybe Justin needs to get educated on the subject.

[Pan]

For more okra, inspiration, have a look at the Okra thread in the Cooking Forum.

[Carrot Top]

edit:  Yes, Carrot Top, you may be a dancer.  Prepare for your screen test, Brooks will send his crew up.  You can PM him for the details.

←

I hope there's enough time. My costume will be made out of peeled okra skins dried then stuck together with okra juices to keep it integral and honest.

There are also the engineering difficulties to work out. As I dance, okra seeds should be gently emitted into the air from the costume, then floating over the audience, to cover them in a soft blanket of star-like sticky little white seeds.

The effect of this will leave them pleasantly glued to the floor as they view the rest of the exhibition.

Thank you for this opportunity.

And now it is time to reveal my secret.

For surely you will be understanding.

I actually like the glutinous quality of okra. That is the best part of the whole thing, in my opinion.

Hah!

[bleudauvergne]

And now it is time to reveal my secret.

For surely you will be understanding.

I actually like the glutinous quality of okra. That is the best part of the whole thing, in my opinion.

Hah!

←

Yes, I agree, I find the slime to be one of the most wonderful qualities of okra.

[Carrot Top]

I bet okra is expensive in France, bleudauvergne. Is it commonly available in the markets...and how is the price?

Well...then of course after writing this I realized I was thinking of okra as an American vegetable, and its home is really Africa.

Curious. Probably your imports to France would come from Africa.

The profit margin...and the distribution companies...that would be interesting to know about....in terms of whether they are smaller self-owned in Africa vs. our megalith US companies....

Ah well. Who cares. On to my usual cup of toasted okra tea for breakfast....

[fifi]

To StudentChefEclipse - in the 25 years I've been making gumbo, I have yet to use any okra.  When I lived in LA, I encountered only a few people who used it in their gumbo and those who did, sauteed it before adding to the pot to get rid of the slime.  If you go into the average small-town cafe in LA, unless the menu specifies that there is okra in the gumbo, there won't be any.  It is not necessary to have okra to have gumbo.

←

I beg to differ! According to all of my literature on the subject, gumbo is called gumbo because it is the the name used by africans for okra!

So how could you have gumbo without it?

←

Well... it started out that way a few hundred years ago. Language changes and evolves. While gumbo may be an African word for okra (which language?), and it started out being a part of a roux based soup/stew concoction, the word evolved. Well, now that I think about it, I am not entirely sure when the roux came into the picture. The original purpose of the okra was likely to lend texture and thickening to the final dish. A native alternative was discovered... powdered sassafras leaves known as file (feel A) which lends a similar texture when stirred in at the table. File doesn't add a whole lot of flavor and is mostly a texture thing. That is what makes me think that a source for that texture that can be stored long term came to be popular. So maybe it was the texture that the cooks were after.

Anyway... The word "gumbo" for the pod was dropped and replaced with "okra". (The origin of the word "okra" will require a little more research.) The word "gumbo" came to mean the style of cooking that we see today as gumbo... the roux based soup/stew. Indeed, in Gumbo Country, more often than not there is no okra and when it is present it usually says so on the menu. Looking through my book collection, which includes some old compilations from "Ladie's Auxilliaries" and such, very few of the recipes call for okra. A random perusal of those books indicates that maybe one in five recipes will include okra and those will include okra in the title. Those that do include okra tend to be the lighter variety (as in roux color), mostly seafood, heavy on the vegetables, and often contain tomatoes. Then there are the inevitable exceptions to that.

[Carrot Top]

:laugh: Oh, fifi....like I said...the best use for okra is for endless conversation...and now not only about the thing itself but also about even the WORD!!!!

[AmbrosiaFood]

Well... it started out that way a few hundred years ago. Language changes and evolves. While gumbo may be an African word for okra (which language?), and it started out being a part of a roux based soup/stew concoction, the word evolved. Well, now that I think about it, I am not entirely sure when the roux came into the picture. The original purpose of the okra was likely to lend texture and thickening to the final dish. A native alternative was discovered... powdered sassafras leaves known as file (feel A) which lends a similar texture when stirred in at the table. File doesn't add a whole lot of flavor and is mostly a texture thing. That is what makes me think that a source for that texture that can be stored long term came to be popular. So maybe it was the texture that the cooks were after.

Anyway... The word "gumbo" for the pod was dropped and replaced with "okra". (The origin of the word "okra" will require a little more research.) The word "gumbo" came to mean the style of cooking that we see today as gumbo... the roux based soup/stew. Indeed, in Gumbo Country, more often than not there is no okra and when it is present it usually says so on the menu. Looking through my book collection, which includes some old compilations from "Ladie's Auxilliaries" and such, very few of the recipes call for okra. A random perusal of those books indicates that maybe one in five recipes will include okra and those will include okra in the title. Those that do include okra tend to be the lighter variety (as in roux color), mostly seafood, heavy on the vegetables, and often contain tomatoes. Then there are the inevitable exceptions to that.

←

This raises several questions: If a dish is named for the essential ingredient used in the dish, and that ingredient is removed from that dish, then that dish can not still be properly called the same dish. Like liver and onions. Remove the liver, and can you still call it "liver and onions"?

The word gumbo was not used by african slaves and was replaced with okra, after their knowledge of their native language was lost and they began speaking english only. It is really quite simple. The dish they created from their gumbo/okra remained the same name -- real gumbo has okra.

Gumbo without okra is a variation that is not the original recipe. It is what happens when someone tampers with a cuisine.

Edited October 23, 2004 by AmbrosiaFood (log)

[fifi]

Well... it started out that way a few hundred years ago. Language changes and evolves. While gumbo may be an African word for okra (which language?), and it started out being a part of a roux based soup/stew concoction, the word evolved. Well, now that I think about it, I am not entirely sure when the roux came into the picture. The original purpose of the okra was likely to lend texture and thickening to the final dish. A native alternative was discovered... powdered sassafras leaves known as file (feel A) which lends a similar texture when stirred in at the table. File doesn't add a whole lot of flavor and is mostly a texture thing. That is what makes me think that a source for that texture that can be stored long term came to be popular. So maybe it was the texture that the cooks were after.

Anyway... The word "gumbo" for the pod was dropped and replaced with "okra". (The origin of the word "okra" will require a little more research.) The word "gumbo" came to mean the style of cooking that we see today as gumbo... the roux based soup/stew. Indeed, in Gumbo Country, more often than not there is no okra and when it is present it usually says so on the menu. Looking through my book collection, which includes some old compilations from "Ladie's Auxilliaries" and such, very few of the recipes call for okra. A random perusal of those books indicates that maybe one in five recipes will include okra and those will include okra in the title. Those that do include okra tend to be the lighter variety (as in roux color), mostly seafood, heavy on the vegetables, and often contain tomatoes. Then there are the inevitable exceptions to that.

←

This raises several questions: If a dish is named for the essential ingredient used in the dish, and that ingredient is removed from that dish, then that dish can not still be properly called the same dish. Like liver and onions. Remove the liver, and can you still call it "liver and onions"?

The word gumbo was not used by african slaves and was replaced with okra, after their knowledge of their native language was lost and they began speaking english only. It is really quite simple. The dish they created from their gumbo/okra remained the same name -- real gumbo has okra.

Gumbo without okra is a variation that is not the original recipe. It is what happens when someone tampers with a cuisine.

←

True... But, the word is used today (and for the past hundred years or so) to mean the generic cooking technique. We can debate all day what is and is not "original" gumbo. But, what is cooked in homes and restaurants and is called "gumbo", and what has been published for many years, has morphed. That is the way of language, and cooking. I have been searching for "original" gumbo recipes that rely on okra and can't find it. I find references and speculation as to what the "original" dish is but nothing definitive. At this point, I am not even certain that anyone knows. Perhaps some of our new friends in the SFA can add to the discussion. Perhaps a thread in the Southern Food Culture forum is in order. After all, gumbo cookery slops over into east Texas, Mississippi, and Alabama, and possibly beyond.

[AmbrosiaFood]

But there is nothing to debate.....either something is or is not. Liver and onions is not onions alone, and Gumbo without it's namesake ingredient is not gumbo...it is something else entirely. Okra is the reason for the dish, not just a handy little ingredient used in it.

You can call a green bean a bimbo, until bimbo comes into common useage amongst your peers. Other people you can not influence, will probably still call it a green bean.

If you make the common thanksgiving dish green bean casserole without green beans, then it is just cream of mushroom soup with canned fried onions. If you do it for a hundred years, it still won't be green bean casserole.

[Jensen]

The English language is not that unforgiving of changes. The meanings of words change and evolve over time and that, apparently, is exactly what has happened with "gumbo". That gumbo is not gumbo without okra was true only when gumbo was the accepted word for okra.

It has nought to do with "tampering with cuisines" and all to do with the evolution of language. Personally, that is one of the things I truly adore about English as a language.

Back to okra (the vegetable)...

The Spouse has recently discovered it for himself and we've been eating it a fair bit of late. I've always enjoyed it (slime or no slime) and now I'm able to eat it more often. The best recent concoction has been bhindi masala (photos and description here: click).

I've been on the road for the last three weeks so am looking forward to more okra now that I'm home. We just got home from the farmers' market, where we bought some more (among other fruits and veggies).

[Squeat Mungry]

The October issue of Southern Living has a recipe for "Classic Gumbo". Guess what. No okra!

The author of the article, Donna Florio:

All gumbos start with a roux, but after the initial browning of fat and flour, other decisions are left to the cook's discretion and what ingredients are on hand... Some cooks add in okra, but an equal number don't. Other possible ingredients include tomatoes, bay leaves, and file powder (crushed sassafras leaves).

...

Not a fan of okra? Then don 't include it. But you'll likely want to provide an alternate thickener, such as file powder...

Personally, I've never met a gumbo that didn't include okra or file, one or the other. The SL recipe doesn't include okra, and lists the file as optional!

Cheers,

Squeat

Eddit: tyypo.

Edited October 23, 2004 by Squeat Mungry (log)

[bleudauvergne]

To answer Carrot Top's question, my okra comes direct from Africa, and the label calls it Gombo. That's the french word for okra. The gentrification of the South is the only logical explanation I can come up with for the absence of it in the ragout called Gumbo. I'm sure there are some others on this board who can explain the reason why from a much more educated standpoint. There are shops here catering to African populations here. It's expensive fresh, mainly because it's not grown anywhere near this country. They pick it young, compact and small, and it never arrives in prime condition. Canned and in jars, you can find it from the North African food shops. They sell it more cheaply than fresh, always with a tomato in the bottom of the jar. I wish I could find it frozen. It's not the same canned. We eat it every once in a while. Plain. As a vegetable. We never prepared gumbo the ragout at home. But we did eat the vegetable plain. My family came from AL/TN, not LA.

[AmbrosiaFood]

The English language is not that unforgiving of changes. The meanings of words change and evolve over time and that, apparently, is exactly what has happened with "gumbo". That gumbo is not gumbo without okra was true only when gumbo was the accepted word for okra.

It has nought to do with "tampering with cuisines" and all to do with the evolution of language. Personally, that is one of the things I truly adore about English as a language.

←

Gumbo or more precisely ngumbo, is not an english word. Gumbo [they way african slaves used it] is okra....the original word for okra in the United States. The dish gumbo was created by those slaves who imported it here. The original creators of the dish [the african slaves] named it for the prime ingredient .... gumbo/okra.

So the lack of okra in today's southern seafood/chicken stew [i will not call it gumbo] is "tampering with the recipe" as it was originally created.

Do you want broccoli replacing green beans in your green bean casserole?

Edited October 23, 2004 by AmbrosiaFood (log)

[lovebenton0]

But the dish Gumbo is all a part of the evolving language of food and words. (There must be a special gumbo recipe for every person who has ever made it.) I make mine with okra, to me that is the best gumbo. We love it that way -- but it also has file' sprinkled at the table 'cause that's the way I learned it from a Cajun friend's grandmama 30 years ago and I've been happy with it every time. So for me file' is not a sub, it is expected. But I've certainly eaten it many different ways by many a fine cook.

Otherwise -- I love to grow Okra -- what a rewarding veg! Pick it small and tender and pickle it hot with garlic and red peppers. I have a friend that waits for me to give her a jar every fall. Slice it thin, coat in garlicky cornmeal and quick fry very hot for a side. Or saute slices hot and fast with garlic and onion for gumbo, or to stew with tomatoes.

I must confess that when I pick it baby tender I eat a handful right then on my way back to the kitchen. And if I have a question about borderline "enough fibre to make a rope" okra I just bite off the tips and if it's good to nip it's good to cook. (I promise I trim that before cooking. )