British cooking/Britain's food history and reputation

[Steve Plotnicki]

Tony-Your last post makes no sense. The French have embraced North African cuisine the way Americans have embraced Chinese food. It's just that the French had immigration from countries that were different than the U.S. and Britain. Most people ended up with Chinese communities because the Chinese were brought over to build the railroads. But that isn't true forthe European railroad system I don't think. But Britain ended up with Chinese immigrants because of Honk Kong. Indian restaurants because India was a colony. Middle Eastern restaurants because they controlled the Middle East for awhile. Where is there similar cause for immigration to France, Spain, Italy, etc.?

But that only defeats part of your answer. The most important part is that Britain's cuisine, nor the U.S.'s, was good enough (tasting that is or complexity if you like) to withstand the incursion of new ingredients and technques. So Britain's welcoming of the Tikka Masala isn't an act of benevolence. It's more like the act of somebody with sore feet that has been standing for centuries and finally has been given the opportunity to sit down.

[John Whiting]

An idea has popped into my head which I've not had time to analyze. On the whole, the foreign foods which have become the most popular in all European countries have been those with the most aggressive flavors. I suspect that this relates to a general climate of overstimulation in which colors are primary and sounds are loud -- pop music for instance continues to climb the decibel scale towards prematurely induced deafness. As Marshall McLuhan noted half a century ago, overstimulation leads to narcosis.

[Tonyfinch]

Colonization apart,the main reason for such diverse immigration into Britain was that for one and a half centuries London was the biggest and most important port in Europe and groups from all over the world washed up and stayed.(the first Chinese community in London comprised Chinese sailors who jumped ship and settled in Limehouse,opening Europe's first Chinese restaurants there)

But also,Britain has a history of allowing immigrant communities to develop and practice their own cultures far more than France. Our Brittania rules the waves mentality led to a kind of self confidence to the point where we didn't feel our indigenous heritage needed such stringent safeguarding.

In France some Southern towns are controlled by anti-immigrant Fascist councils,Moslem girls are not allowed to wear ethnic clothing in schools and I simply do not agree that the French have "embraced" North African cuisine. Ethnic restaurants hardly exist outside of Paris and Marseille and even in Paris they are regarded as a cheap alternative for those rare moments when you maybe jaded with French fare.

Can you honestly imagine a North African restaurant getting a Michelin star in France?

This is not to say that French cusine is not superior to indigenous British.I think we all agreed that a while ago.But there are other factors governing this issue and the British tolerance towards and encouragement of multi-culturalism is one of them.

[Steve Klc]

Tony--as an aside, like you, I can't imagine a North African restaurant getting a Michelin star in France...but I have dined with a Michelin-starred chef in a little-known North African restaurant in Paris--indeed, it was his favorite "local" restaurant.

[A Balic]

John-You have brought up an additional good point which is when a country has an indiginous cuisine that is weak, it is easily overcome by the cuisines of immigrants that move there if those cuisines are more interesting. It is true in the U.S. Whatever there was of traditional American cuisine has very much fallen by the wayside to things like  pizza, bagels, pastrami, spare ribs, sushi etc.(that is in big cities with immigration.) And it's the same for England with tikka masala. And in Germany, kofte kebab has become the national dish. Notice how in France, Spain and Italy ethnic food has become popular but not to the extent that it overshadows the native cooking.

I dunno Steve, do you really believe that. I have just been reading some culinary history on Italy and it would seem that the tomato wasn't all that popular until the start of the 19th C. I can't imagine Italy with out the tomato now. The "native" cooking of France and Italy has changed a lot in the last fifity years. In Italy you could have considered the cooking of the South as being a different "ethnic" cuisine to that in the North. Now that distinction is breaking down. Interesting thought though.

Maybe the English are a more culinary dynamic nation then France or Italy? Some people would most likely argue that point. Infact as an example, we have an excellent Spanish store that has just opened next to our flat in Eninburgh. This is all for the benifit of the native Scots, not for any small Spanish ethnic group that lives in Edinburgh. I'm not sure that that would happen in France or Italy?

[Tonyfinch]

we have an excellent Spanish store that has just opened next to our flat in Eninburgh. This is all for the benifit of the native Scots, not for any small Spanish ethnic group that lives in Edinburgh. I'm not sure that that would happen in France or Italy?

I don't think it would,Adam. The French,Italian and Spanish societies are far more conservative and culturally reactionary than Britain and also than the large American cities. I mean Spain was a fascist country until the seventies for goodness sake.I think this is largely because they are far more agricultural than Britain, and agricultural societies are always more reactionary and parochial than urban ones.

The whole spirit of welcome as symbolised by the Statue of Liberty "bring me your huddled masses" etc. can either be interepreted cynically (they've only been brought over to do the dirty jobs etc.) or more hopefully as a genuine,if not always successful attempt at valuing all equally for what they and their cultures can contribute,and food is included in this.You see it happening in Australia now.

[A Balic]

Tony - remember Thatcher? . I wish that what you said about Australia was true, but unfortunately it isn't as straight forward as that, there are still a deeply racist element in Australia .

My Italian friends are very funny about "foreign" food. One of them is from Siena, when he is in Florence, he is always bitching about the food (eg. This cake should have pinenuts on it, not almonds! What are these people thinking). It is very funny to see. Strangely, on a visit to London they really like Indian food, but not Chinese. We asked them why and they explained that the Indian food comes with bread, which is the "correct" way to eat. I guess there are Plonickii in all cultures .

[Tonyfinch]

Adam, I'm certainly not trying to deny the existence of racism in the Uk or in the USA or Australia-how could I? However my point is that there are genuine attempts to welcome and celebrate diversity in those countries in a way that just does not happen in France,Italy or Spain.And it doesn't only apply to food.In France cultural diversity is seen as a threat to French culture.There is a "correct",as you say of your Italian friends,,way of doing things,including eating .Any other way,therefore is,by definition,"incorrect" and to be treated with suspicion and disdain.

This maybe partly springs from the power of the agricultural lobbies and their desire to protect their markets,but also because despite having colonies,those countries have seen far less immigration than the UK ,the USA and Australia and ,as Catholic countries they are maybe more--how shall I put it--- dogmatic(?) about the rights and wrongs of how things must be done.

[macrosan]

Adam and Tony, I think you now have this right. The French are resistant to outside cultures, and particularly British and American (viz. Charles de Gaulle and his banning of English words from the French language). The French need precision and correctness in all things, and particularly protocol and custom (viz. their extensive, almost obsessional, codification of food and wine).

I don't say this is wrong, and I actually approve of much of this attitude. But right or wrong, I do recognise that it exists. The British attitude is more relaxed, more tolerant, more flexible, more susceptible to discussion and evolution. Maybe we're more self-confident about our future, maybe less fearful of foreign culture, because we haven't been invaded for a long time.

It seems valid to say that the French have a "right and wrong" attitude towards food, wine, and all the ritual that goes with them. It certainly is valid to say that the British don't, except for the Francocentric gastronomes who are bound to follow the French tradition in the field of cuisine.

It would maybe be right to describe the British view of cuisine as pragmatically eclectic. We are not afraid to acknowledge that Chinese food, say, tastes as good as British food, and if it happens to be much cheaper (which it was when it was first introduced en masse to Britain) then of course it would significantly supplant British food in terms of restaurant population. And why not???? I would not wish British cuisine to continue to exist as a historical curiosity. I do not need to count British restaurants or British 3-star chefs as a means of boosting national pride. I just happen to prefer Chinese cuisine to British (and French and all other) cuisine, and I just happen to enjoy eating the food I like best. I guess I'm not alone in Britain, or in the USA, judging by the proliferation of Chinese restaurants.

One day, perhaps "Lamb cutlets with bean sprouts and soy sauce" will be thought of as British cuisine. But actually I don't care, so long as it tastes good.

Edit Disclosure: I edited just to see if that would return this thread to its rightful place at the top of the board. It didn't so I'll have to try direct action instead  

[macrosan]

So there I was at eGullet, minding my own business, when who should walk in but .....

[AdamLawrence]

Not that it will add much to the total wisdom of the ages, but I've just returned from a week in Cornwall with my cousin, who has lived in Paris for over 25 years, and his French partner. Now, Andre (said partner. damn, how do I do accents on this thing?) is a sophisticated middle-class Frenchman of taste and discernment who has eaten fairly recently at Michel Bras and Lucas-Carton (and who took me and the wife for a plat de fruits de mer at the Dome in Montparnasse last time we were in Paris), with (limited) experience of England and its food. While here, he much enjoyed:

* sausages and mash with onion gravy for lunch in a pub close to the M5, in which we broke our journey on the way home (the Bird in Hand in the fantastically named village of North Curry in Somerset for the benefit of anyone who might be passing that way). I had them too. They were excellent.

* Cornish pasty. Admittedly these were gourmet versions from Rick Stein's deli in Padstow.

* English sparkling wine from the Camel Valley Vineyard (excellent, if a bit young for my taste; I bought half a case and will see how it takes age).

* Cream teas at a variety of locations. He's now trying to find a supplier of clotted cream in Paris.

* Lebanese food from our local joint in Oxford, pronounced much better than any he can find in Paris.

Now, as I said, this proves nothing. But it interested me.

cheers

Adam

[Tempest63]

Us Brits have always been mocked by our continental cousins for inferior food, but I remember my mum putting a chicken casserole on the table that was as good as any poule au pot served up by a French housewife, a beef stew that tasted better than a Belgian carbonnade, and the best ever cod cutlet in a fresh, home made parsley sauce, no packet stuff then. 
No, it all went wrong with the arrival of convenience foods in the 1970’s, especially Findus Crispy Pancakes. Arriving home from school to find, no chops, chicken or fish, but instead a plate with a fried cardboard outer filled with something akin to kit-e-kat filling was the biggest culinary disaster in the history of U.K. cuisine. Even the Goblin meat puddings (boil in the tin) were better, as was the Fray Bentos bake in the tin meat pies.

Findus and their crispy pancakes have a lot to answer for.

I thank the gods that I was old enough to avoid the pop-tarts for breakfast. Who wants the inside of their mouth scalded by fruit flavoured napalm before going off to school?

[liuzhou]

I disagree that any decline started in the 1970s. Quite the reverse. It started to recover then.

 

The biggest disaster by far was the rationing in WW2. A whole generation grew up with no food to learn to cook with. My late mother was a) French and b) a terrible cook. Her family moved to Britain as refugees in 1939 when she was 10. Rationing began the next year and lasted until 1954, by which time she was 24 and a mother (to me and to my younger brother). As a child she was not allowed to cook as, if she screwed up an ingredient or a dish, the family went hungry. You couldn't nip out and buy more food. My grandmother cooked. The same applied to most families.

 

I remember in the 1950s, the paucity of available foods. No garlic, the lack of some of the most popular fruits, minimal choice of vegetables etc. Olive oil only being available in tiny bottles from a pharmacy to be used to treat ear wax blockages!

 

In the 1960s and 70s, the advent of cheap travel (mostly to Europe) led people to discovering or rediscovering better, more interesting foods and becoming more demanding. People learned again the food could be good!

 

This coincided with the rise of supermarkets, offering an increasing number of choices.

 

Sure, so called "convenience foods" but they are not particularly British. They are mostly American in origin but universal. As is Findus, although headquartered in the UK.

 

I discussed all of this (and some others such as Full Breakfasts and Borough Market in this topic.

 

 

Edited June 27 by liuzhou (log)

[Tropicalsenior]

I'm not a Brit but I entirely agree with @liuzhou. Before World War II, 2/3 of the food of the British Islands was imported. With the blockades, that was cut to almost zero. That was not only rationing, that was severe rationing. Girls couldn't learn to cook because they had nothing to cook. And contrary to our belief over here, rationing didn't end until 1954.

But I think the problem goes back even farther. England suffered two terrible Wars. It not only devastated the food supply, it devastated the working population. They lost almost two generations of wage earners. Now the women not only had to cook the food, they had to put it on the table. Things could never return to pre-war years.

And there's another factor that people don't take into consideration. Before, the upper classes ate well because they had good Cooks. Domestic help was no longer available and women that had never even had to boil water for their own tea were now having to learn to cook their own meals. That led to a lot of dismal failures and a lot of bad meals.

England has had centuries of history of good food. Yes, there was a period of time that it was almost impossible to get food but I would say that England has made a great recovery and that some of the old favorites never did die.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Tropicalsenior (log)

[TdeV]

My Dad used to tell stories about his aunt. In the war they had rationing, so only a tiny bit of butter; his aunt elected to save her butter slivers all week so she could finally have one good slice of toast!

 

I've really enjoyed Consider the Fork: History of How We Cook and Eat by British food writer Bee Wilson.

[liuzhou]

2 minutes ago, TdeV said:

 

I've really enjoyed Consider the Fork: History of How We Cook and Eat by British food writer Bee Wilson.

 

I have a lot of respect for Bee Wilson. All her books are well researched and interesting.

[C. sapidus]

54 minutes ago, TdeV said:

My Dad used to tell stories about his aunt. In the war they had rationing, so only a tiny bit of butter; his aunt elected to save her butter slivers all week so she could finally have one good slice of toast!

 

My mother had the same experience in the UK during WWII. Plus they had an unexploded bomb land in their back garden.

[Tropicalsenior]

The BBC did a fantastic program about life on a farm in Britain during World War II. It's a reconstruction but it is so well done that you feel that you are actually living through it with these people. It is well worth watching.

But to get back to convenience foods, it is still being debated whether it filled a niche that existed at the time or whether their advertising created an itch to have something new. There's no doubt that it came at a time when there were more women in the work force and it was a handy way to put food on the table but people were also more prosperous and by using more convenience foods they had more time for other activities that they were beginning to enjoy. Everybody bought a TV so they had to have TV dinners to go with it.

Like everything else, lifestyles and cooking styles go through phases. And it all comes down to choice. Some people choose to cook and some people choose to grab the convenience foods. Some people like @heidihs stepmother just can't cook and it's a whole lot better to grab a good convenience food than to put unedible slop on the table.

[MetsFan5]

7 hours ago, Tempest63 said:

Us Brits have always been mocked by our continental cousins for inferior food, but I remember my mum putting a chicken casserole on the table that was as good as any poule au pot served up by a French housewife, a beef stew that tasted better than a Belgian carbonnade, and the best ever cod cutlet in a fresh, home made parsley sauce, no packet stuff then. 
No, it all went wrong with the arrival of convenience foods in the 1970’s, especially Findus Crispy Pancakes. Arriving home from school to find, no chops, chicken or fish, but instead a plate with a fried cardboard outer filled with something akin to kit-e-kat filling was the biggest culinary disaster in the history of U.K. cuisine. Even the Goblin meat puddings (boil in the tin) were better, as was the Fray Bentos bake in the tin meat pies.

Findus and their crispy pancakes have a lot to answer for.

I thank the gods that I was old enough to avoid the pop-tarts for breakfast. Who wants the inside of their mouth scalded by fruit flavoured napalm before going off to school?

This sounds more like a family issue, not like a country or even worldwide issue. Convenience “foods” of course become more popular depending on the market, the times, the rations, I could go on and on. 
 

 But I hardly think it’s isolated to just one country. 

[liuzhou]

5 hours ago, Tropicalsenior said:

The BBC did a fantastic program about life on a farm in Britain during World War II.

 

Yes. I watched it again during my months in bed. I have the whole series on DVD.

Edited October 28, 2023 by liuzhou (log)

[AlaMoi]

my grandparents raised five kids through the depression and WW2.

he raised rabbits - they had no shortage of "meat" - but note that my visiting grandmother in 1986 mentioned to her dish of "hassenpfeffer" that she had not eaten rabbit in a long time . . . "I had my fill of it before  . ."

 

during WW2, my grandfather traded rabbit meat for (lots of things)

relatives had a dairy farm; my grandfather had a seriously large (vegetable) garden - they swapped rabbit/deer meat for butter/cheese/milk.

 

the UK had an entirely different problem - large population - most everything had to be (in volume) imported - so shortages last long after WW2.

 

but, in short, the "instant food" developments/trends that followed WW2 were an major impact on how people feed themselves.

 

[Tropicalsenior]

22 hours ago, liuzhou said:

I discussed all of this (and some others such as Full Breakfasts and Borough Market in this topic.

I just finished reading all nine pages of this topic. I don't know how I missed it before but it should be required reading for anyone with any questions about English food and food in the UK.

I had several more arguments to present on this topic but within the first two pages I found out that they had been completely and thoroughly covered and presented in a way that I could never hope to do. That topic makes this one completely redundant and as far as I'm concerned, discussion closed.

[Tempest63]

On 10/28/2023 at 4:41 AM, MetsFan5 said:

This sounds more like a family issue, not like a country or even worldwide issue. Convenience “foods” of course become more popular depending on the market, the times, the rations, I could go on and on. 
 

 But I hardly think it’s isolated to just one country. 

The point I was trying to make, in a slightly humorous way (apologies if if didn’t come across that way), is that the advent of convenience food and large frozen food stores meant a quick alternative to proper cooking. Busy mums, and some that were not so busy,  found that instead of cooking a traditional meal they had something frozen, pre prepared, that they could slam in the oven and feed the kids. The Findus products I mentioned were an example of such food, high in fats and salt, that were inflicted upon a generation. Having been raised on real food, these convenient alternatives never sat well with me. I absolutely refused to put this type of food in front of my kids when they were growing up and as such my weekends were spent batch cooking good fresh ingredients for my busy wife to serve to the kids as an evening meal.
 

I enjoyed cooking back then as I do now, so it was no chore to sit down with four young kids on a Saturday morning and let them help put the weekly menu together which I would then prepare for them to eat during the week. That has now carried over to the next generation and my grandchildren now help choose what to eat during the week.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Tempest63 (log)

[heidih]

I don't particularly agree. My maternal side - all good cooks even with the scaled down availability of goods post WW2 . When dad started dating mom they got slipped some meat. He was a butcher in a neutral country but his stuff mostly went out onto black market. But in the 50's and beyond, us kids were seduced by marketing. Those neatly sectioned trays of TV dinners. The  OO Spaghettios. We begged. Sometimes mom or aunt would relent. Taste = bland. Nothing one would crave and small portions. We also thought it was "American" and assimilation was a goal. Didn't last long. I point the finger at marketing. I let son have Lunchables but when he saw his Japanese friends and their bento boxes that actually had good stuff we switched. He started cooking of his own volition in high school and does today.  Of course working moms will reach for quick helpers but these are not the days of granny at home to help. I don't judge, I just don't do it that way.

[liuzhou]

This has already been discussed at length (10 pages) here.