"a point" comes back rare

[bleudauvergne]

I am starting this thread from a question posted to me in another thread by vedette, and I think it's worthy of its own discussion:

When we order steak in France "a point" it is quite rare. Fine for us but not always for our companions. What is the next step up? Don't want well done.

Any thoughts on a simply way to express this when in France?

Edited June 12, 2004 by bleudauvergne (log)

[Louisa Chu]

The next step up is bien cuit - or French medium - which is probably closer to American rare. In France, meat done-ness is ordered bleu, saignant, a point, or bien cuit - any orders we get beyond that are typically called "bien, bien, bien cuit!" - or something to that effect.

[bleudauvergne]

The next step up is bien cuit - or French medium - which is probably closer to American rare. In France, meat done-ness is ordered bleu, saignant, a point, or bien cuit - any orders we get beyond that are typically called "bien, bien, bien cuit!" - or something to that effect.

It is true that the French steak scale leans rather to the rare.

I will never forget the first time I prepared a pot roast for my husband, we weren't married yet, and we had just begun our big adventure together in America. We had been correpsonding and visiting for over a year, but it was the first time that we were living together, we were very new to each other. One evening, I lovingly prepared a nice pot roast, and it was a really big deal for me that he like it. So at the table, he was silent. I asked him how it was, and he said it tasted alright, but it was sort of "a shame" that I'd cooked it so thoroughly. It was nice and pink in the middle, and flowing all kinds of beautiful juices, what the heck was he talking about?!?!?

I was shocked, and I was embarrased! No one had ever right out told me that I had ruined a meal especially cooked for them. It was a first in my whole life to be confronted with someone with tastes so exact, and no hesitation to criticise if it wasn't exactly what they were expecting. And in my little new fiancee crisis, my old world Irish temper got the best of me, and I picked up the roast with the carving fork, and suddenly I found myself at the window, and the next thing I knew I had tossed the roast out the window, without saying a word. Of course I immediately regretted it. I stayed calm and acted like people throw pot roasts out windows all the time in the States. I smiled sweetly and asked if we might go out to dinner. Needless to say I had never done that before nor did I ever do it again. But it was one of the many many times I have been confronted with and manouvered through the differences between the American and French view of food, this time beef specifically.

[balex]

First rule: honesty is important in a relationship

Second rule: so is lying

[admajoremgloriam]

As a Frenchman coming back from a trip to NYC, I must say I was also very surprised that an order of medium rare (what I had read on this board was the best call in most burger places and steakhouses) systematically came back as what would be a bit more cooked that "à point" in France. At Island Burger and Shakes the waitress told me "You want rare? OK. But be aware that here we cook real rare, like red bloody rare!". Did I look like someone you cannot handle my rare? Anyway, I was happy and surprised about their policy, said fine and was served an all right "à point", clearly nowhere near what I expect to be a rare. After some time, I managed to switch and always ordered "very rare" or something like that, which more or less always got me what I wanted. As an interesting exception, I ordered rare at Peter Luger, without any other specification and was served a perfect French rare. Was it beacause we had talked with the waiter a bit beforehand so that he could guess we wanted it this way? I forgot to ask him. Your best bet in France to achieve the state of cooking you desire is to say bien cuit I think, especially if dealing with a rather thick cut of meat, otherwise go for à point.

[Rachel Perlow]

One evening, I lovingly prepared a nice pot roast, and it was a really big deal for me that he like it. So at the table, he was silent. I asked him how it was, and he said it tasted alright, but it was sort of "a shame" that I'd cooked it so thoroughly. It was nice and pink in the middle, and flowing all kinds of beautiful juices, what the heck was he talking about?!?!?

That sounds like a roast beef to me, not a pot roast. I've always thought of pot roast as a braised dish, where the meat is completely cooked through and very tender.

[bleudauvergne]

Hi Rachel, Here's one recipe (click) for a pot roast cooked the way I made it, i.e. pink in the middle. The recipe I used was similar to this one.

Edited to say I still cooked it too much for my now husband's liking!

Edited June 12, 2004 by bleudauvergne (log)

[balmagowry]

The real problem was merely one of nomenclature; you could have told him it was a regional variation on a daube and he would probably have been perfectly happy.

But oh dear, what an agonizing moment!

And what a useful warning. Remind me to watch out for that old-world Irish temper in future. The things you learn about the people you know....

[Bux]

I've never thought of à point as anything approaching rare. Then again my French chef son-in-law thinks I like my meat raw and not cooked to the point where the meat develops full flavor. Then again he loves tartare de boeuf

Does rosé apply to doness of steak as it seems to apply to birds (pigeon and duck) and calf's liver? It seems to be a point slightly less rare than rare.

[Louisa Chu]

Rose only applies to game and organ meat doneness. It's more cooked than rare - when the meat's still pink - as the name implies.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

I've never thought of à point as anything approaching rare. Then again my French chef son-in-law thinks I like my meat raw and not cooked to the point where the meat develops full flavor. Then again he loves tartare de boeuf

Does rosé apply to doness of steak as it seems to apply to birds (pigeon and duck) and calf's liver? It seems to be a point slightly less rare than rare.

I find this a tremendously interesting thread. I have found that although I order meats cooked "saignant", the plate most often arrives what I would consider "medium" or the "well done end of a point". Is it that waiters in France are trained to transliterate cooking requests to the chef if they are ordering for an American table?

Like Bux, I like meat rare, enjoy carpaccios, and like his beau-fils, tartares. I do not, however, like meat "bleu" or cold in the center. There is a happy medium, if I could find out how to order it.

[Bux]

Americans, at least in my experience, habitually overcook liver and kidneys. Maybe times are changing and youger chefs are better and I'm not keeping up, but invariably when I order either, it comes over done, or I over emphasize that I like it on the rare side and the organ mean comes out raw. I should stop ordering both meats unless I know who's in the kitchen in the states.

In Paris at Aux Lyonnaise, I ordered liver and started to explain, in French, how I wanted it cooked using steak terms. The waiter looked at me and said, "rosé." I nodded and got the most fantastic piece of calf's liver I can remember and it was perfectly cooked--very pink in the center and the center was a wide swath.

[fresh_a]

For me, a lot depends on the quality of the meat concerned, meaning, if I have an exceptional piece of beef, I'm probably willing to eat it a little less cooked than normal.

[HKDave]

The most confusing of all worlds occurs in places like Hong Kong, where a western-style Asian line cook may have learned his trade from a European chef or from an American chef. Depending on which restaurant you're at - or even who is in the kitchen at a given time - an order for medium rare will come out anywhere between bloody (most often), properly cooked or medium. There's almost no common standard.

[Louisa Chu]

Is it that waiters in France are trained to transliterate cooking requests to the chef if they are ordering for an American table?

Like Bux, I like meat rare, enjoy carpaccios, and like his beau-fils, tartares. I do not, however, like meat "bleu" or cold in the center. There is a happy medium, if I could find out how to order it.

A waiter does not tell a chef how to cook - they'd risk too much responsibility - in terms of ingredients, time, and the wrath of the chef. They might though inform the chef as to the nationality of a diner. The chef might in fact decide to go for a longer cuisson from matter of experience - but this should never happen above the brasserie level. In a starred restaurant if you order it a point it sure as hell should come out a point.

If you want your steak rare - order it a point. Regardless of the cut. Regardless of the quality. A point. Period.

[ann]

The term "rosé" is also used with lamb, as well as game and organ meats.

[fresh_a]

...as said by Miss Chu

[Jonathan Day]

For those into fancy temperature probes and precision measurements, this is the chart of French cooking temperatures I've used for some time; these are temperatures at the centre of the cooked meat at the point of service -- so if the meat will be held, it should probably be a bit cooler than this.

Beef: "bien cuit" = 77C, "à point" = 71C, "saignant" = 63C, "bleu" = 60C

Veal: "bien cuit" = 74C, "à point" = 68C, "saignant" = 60C, "bleu" = 57C

Lamb: "bien cuit" = 74C, "à point" = 71C, "saignant" = 63C, "bleu" = 60C

Pork and chicken: recommended temperature is 82C, but I generally cook these meats a bit less than this.

In practice it's more a matter of prodding the meat with a finger to estimate the doneness.

[vedette]

I don't think these temperatures can be correct. 71C = 160 F, way beyond medium rare and certainly not what I ever get in France for "a point." 63C is 145 F, in other words medium rare. Saignant in France is very rare indeed, in my experience.

[Pan]

It's interesting that in the US, I usually order medium rare, and I've always been satisfied with ordering a point in France. Go figure!

[NulloModo]

Interesting, I had no idea in France meat was served generally rarer than in the US. I find myself having to very carefully isntruct every waiter here that I want my meat 'as rare as possible' and it still comes out medium half the time.

Bleu is now in my vocabulary for dining in France ;).

[fresh_a]

I'd be interested to know what everyone thinks about French meat vs US meat. As I said, I tend to eat mine rarer here, because I think the quality is, in general, much better than in the US (where I always eat it well-done) Then again, I do go to great places here in Paris, but those're my thoughts.

Edited June 14, 2004 by fresh_a (log)

[NulloModo]

I'd be interested to know what everyone thinks about French meat vs US meat. As I said, I tend to eat mine rarer here, because I think the quality is, in general, much better than in the US (where I always eat it well-done) Then again, I do go to great places here in Paris, but those're my thoughts.

I have never had the pleasure of enjoying French meat, but I have enjoyed U.S. meat from some of the lowest (Sizzler, McDonalds, etc) to near the highest (USDA Prime, however, no Wagyu or Lobel's) quality, and have no qualms about ordering and ejoying it rare, or cooking it that way myself, whenever and wherever possible.

I realize the cows don't live wonderful lives compared to their European brethren, and I realize that I might lose my appetite were I actually to tour a slaughterhouse, but that does not concern me as long as I don't know. I have never become sick from beef I have eaten anywhere, so I just don't worry about it.

Then again, I don't wear my seatbelt, wear suncreen, purify my water, clean my knife between chopping poultry and vegetables, or refridgerate half the things I should either, but none of that stuff has killed me yet, and I have the same attitude. In my mouth, rare beef just tastes better, and I would like to enjoy it that way anywhere and everywhere I can.

[bleudauvergne]

I'd be interested to know what everyone thinks about French meat vs US meat. As I said, I tend to eat mine rarer here, because I think the quality is, in general, much better than in the US (where I always eat it well-done) Then again, I do go to great places here in Paris, but those're my thoughts.

It really depends on the cut. I've had excellent beef boths sides of the pond, and would not be able to say that one is better than the other. But the cuts are different.

Edited June 14, 2004 by bleudauvergne (log)

[John Talbott]

Like NulloMondo, to get what I call in the US rare, I order - bleu. "A point" for me is always too much and rose never quite there.