Restaurant Table Manners

[Behemoth]

Chopsticks and a bowl are my preferred rice-delivery method, I must admit...so long as the rice is a little sticky.

Touaregsand, what is the native way to eat couscous? just roll it up in your hand? I can barely remember what we did in morocco. The standard lebanese approach would be to scoop stuff up with pita bread, but of course moroccan bread isn't built for that. I think they gave us spoons and we used the bread as a pusher, since we were non-locals -- but again, I was a bit young and it was a long time ago.

Edited May 8, 2005 by Behemoth (log)

[touaregsand]

Hers is a photo of North African communal dining.

There is a saying, "To eat with one finger is a sign of hatred; to eat with two shows pride; to eat with three accords with the prophet; to eat with four or five is a sign of gluttony."

It's a quote form Bryan Clarke's Berber Village. (I won't get into the problematics of the title ). But it echoes what I've heard from my North African friends, husband and family.

The three fingers are the thumb, index finger and middle finger, imagine them meeting together to form a scoop. It's common to serve kessra with couscous and tajine (we already discussed the problematics of calling a soup or stew a tajine in that other forum). The kessra is used to sop up the sauce and scoop up pieces of meat and vegetables. But it's not neccesary. Kessra can be very thin like pita bread or it can be thick. Adjust eating techniques accordingly.

Anyway, spoons are acceptable to many North Africans. It is used to scoop food and cut into meat and vegetables.

As for your "eating like a rabbit" I hear this all the time from my Korean cousins and other Koreans in general. If I can stand to watch someone chewing with his/her mouth open (like my dad) without making a comment, I don't see why comments have to be made about my chewing with my mouth closed. Apes in every culture.

[Grub]

This is a fascinating thread...

Behemoth, eating with your mouth closed seems sensible, just because looking at someone's mouth full of half-chewed food is unappealing -- and speaking with your mouth full of food, you risk spraying the table and fellow diners with it, so the "eating like a rabbit" comment sounds completely strange to me. What would the practical, and/or social reasons be, for eating with an open mouth?

I grew up eating the "French" way -- except everyone in my family were left-handed, so I ate left-handed too, in spite of being right-handed. When I discovered this, around age 15 or so, I switched to eating right-handed, but there are still things I can only do left-handed, such as pealing a hot potato.

In spite of this fancy-pants "French" way of eating, I learned few table manners (and the only reason we learned this "French" way was due to a snobbish rivalry between my mother and her sister). As a result, I experienced a few humble moments, when I grew up and ate with others... So, I hit the library and read up on etiquette...

Etiquette can be silly, but it doesn't have to be. Basically, etiquette is just good manners, and good manners most often has a logical and practical reason for it. Sometimes, these practical reasons become outdated, and if the etiquette for dealing it still lingers on, then it can get pretty silly. I grew accustomed to crossing my knife and fork when I was done with a meal, but no one pays attention to this (or know about it) anymore, so it's really quite pointless.

One "etiquette" that I dislike, is the clinking of glasses during a toast -- ESPECIALLY that everyone has to clink everyone else's glass. Just lift your freakin' glass and nod, okay -- that's a toast. You don't have go cloink! Seeing a large party leaning in on a table clonking and clinking away like "Oh, I didn't 'get' you" *cloink* WTF is this, a goddamn party game? The supposed reason for this type of toasting is that you'd pour some of your cup into the other's and vice versa, so show that neither of you have poisoned the other guy's cup -- well, you break my Waterford Powerscourt, I'll freaking poison you next time around, damnit.

Sometimes people ask me about etiquette now, and I love to explain the "French" cutlery thing was because of the need to keep the knife in your right hand, because if a fight broke out at the table, it would be considered extremely uncivilized to stab someone with a fork... If you can keep a straight face, it's amazing how many will buy that explanation.

Edited May 9, 2005 by Grub (log)

[Gifted Gourmet]

more to see: Etiquette Schmetiquette: ever wonder about _____?, Frankly, Scarlett, I don't give a damn!

[Mooshmouse]

Growing up in a Filipino household where putting soup or sauce atop rice is the norm, I was accustomed to eating with a fork in the left hand and spoon in the right. Fork is used to push rice and other food into the spoon which is the means of conveyance from plate to mouth. Knives were essentially unnecessary as food is usually cut bite sized and meats are either stewed or braised until they're fork tender. When a knife did come into play, however, it was used in the 'American' way: fork in the right hand and knife in the left while cutting, then knife laid down on the plate when finished.

These days, I've fallen back into the habit of using a fork and spoon at home when eating rice and a main course with sauce. Most other times, however, it's knife in the right hand and fork in the left, tines down.

[BonfireCuisine]

I was always taught that you're done with your plate if you turn your fork over as in you're not able to eat another bite. I've also heard of putting both the knife and fork in the shape of an X - as in done.

Who knows these days?

Jay

[easternsun]

growing up it was fork in the left, knife in the right. fork turned over and both fork and knife at twelve o'clock to indicate the end of the meal.

i eat with chopsticks and spoons and my hands these days. my husband and i agree to disagree when it comes to table manners. it is not uncommon in japan to see famous actors or musicians on the television chatting with a mouth full of food. i have learned not to comment on this quirky bit of japanese culture. noodle slurping is the norm and i admit i spent years perfecting my soba eating skills i find that the slurping also extends to soups, hot beverages and even soft foods. there are some with excellent table manners but i dont know any of those people.

i shudder when we travel to canada to visit. i am prone to daily lectures on what is considered rude and what is not appropriate. it is a nightmare but i get through it! culturally, this is one of the places where we clash the most.

my question is: if you are in europe and you are not using a knife (maybe you are at home) do you eat with the fork in the left hand? (assuming you are a right handed person)

lets say you are eating a piece of cake/dessert - which hand do you use?

while reading this post i am "mimeing" eating with a fork (it really has been a long time since i used one ) my instincts say that i use my right but i know that if i have both utensils, the fork is in my left! now i am going to have to go buy some cake to check out this theory

as for leaving the last bite of food - some buddhists leave the last bite as an offering and/or to show a lack of greed

[Daniel Rogov]

Here's a link to a piece I wrote about dining manners several years ago.... (proof that it was writtena while ago is that both of the people referred to in the present tense in the first paragraph are no longer living). http://www.stratsplace.com/rogov/good_manners.html

[Behemoth]

Behemoth, eating with your mouth closed seems sensible, just because looking at someone's mouth full of half-chewed food is unappealing -- and speaking with your mouth full of food, you risk spraying the table and fellow diners with it, so the "eating like a rabbit" comment sounds completely strange to me. What would the practical, and/or social reasons be, for eating with an open mouth?

There is of course no practical reason why you should talk with your mouth open. There is just no reason, as far as they see it, why you shouldn't.

[Genny]

What are appropriate manners when dining at a friend's house? Is it appropriate to offer assisstance to the cook or at least to go in and keep them company while they are making preparations?

We had friends over to celebrate their new marriage and I was somewhat put-off that my girlfriend stayed with our husbands chatting while I put together the main course. I had my mise already and didn't need any help, per se, but the company would have been nice since my kitchen is separate from the living room. The same happened with dessert and coffee. Hmmm.

This isn't the first time I've experienced this as a host and it always baffles me. My mom taught me it is only polite to offer assistance. I will say that men are generally excused from having to offer, it is an expectation of women only. (I know, I know this is a very outdated type of gender bias.)

I'd love to hear some comments on this!

[emmapeel]

I would have offered to help you and expected you would decline, regardless, I would have certainly joined you in the kitchen for chat (especially about my new husband).

[*Deborah*]

There is of course no practical reason why you should talk with your mouth open. There is just no reason, as far as they see it, why you shouldn't.

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Difficult to talk with your mouth closed, unless you are Edgar Bergen, actually.

[andiesenji]

Yeah, I know I've just offended a bunch of people.  But come on.

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No way, you haven't offended me. I understand the tines down, but tell me, how do you eat rice? You can't spear it, and you don't use a spoon, right?

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Okay, for loose stuff you do use it like a shovel I guess (don't see how else you could do it) using the knife as a pusher. I probably do that with peas as well. But I really get a kick out of watching people try to get the rice/peas on the fork without using a knife.

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This reminds me of the old (very old) joke poem from way back when I was a child, growing up in western Kentucky - and it was old back then.

"I eat my peas with honey,

I've done it all my life.

It makes the peas taste funny,

but it keeps them on my knife!"

When cultures meet, across a dining table, there will always be differences but as long as people are kind and considerate of each other there should not be any hard feelings.

Even the most sophistacated diners in one culture will make mistakes when they come in contact with other cultures.

To me, the best manners are in being helpful and instructive to others without making fun of them.

[Behemoth]

There is of course no practical reason why you should talk with your mouth open. There is just no reason, as far as they see it, why you shouldn't.

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Difficult to talk with your mouth closed, unless you are Edgar Bergen, actually.

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Ich. I meant FULL, not CLOSED. I need a second cup of coffee. Not to mention an editor.

Edited May 9, 2005 by Behemoth (log)

[andiesenji]

What are appropriate manners when dining at a friend's house?  Is it appropriate to offer assisstance to the cook or at least to go in and keep them company while they are making preparations? 

I'd love to hear some comments on this!

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I almost always gravitate to the kitchen, if either or both of my hosts are there. To me it is always more interesting to hang out in the heart of the home than stand or sit around listening to people talk about things which have little interest to me.

At many gatherings, one will find groups divided on gender lines, all the men in one place talking about sports or cars, etc., and the women gathered in groups talking about children, fashion or whatever.

With groups that have something such as food in common, these lines blur and that is the kind of gathering were I am most comfortable. (It is very similar in the dog fancy, groups form by interest, not by gender.)

I always offer to help but do not try to take over any tasks on my own. However, many of my friends have come to expect that I will pitch in on some tasks and plan for it. In fact, I am often asked if I can arrive early and handle something for which I have a particular talent. They know I love to do certain things and are kind enough to allow me to contribute.

Even if there is nothing for me to do, I like chatting with whomever is in the kitchen and I feel uncomfortable if someone has to go off alone to the kitchen to work on something.

[Abra]

I had a very interesting experience over the weekend, when I had a celebratory meal with a group of Tongans (I'll be posting about it in a few days). The food was all traditional Tongan, and since it's also traditional to eat with one's fingers, I did. Later I heard that a couple of people had commented that I was the only palangi (ferenghi, haole, or white person from somewhere else) that the speaker had ever liked, or felt comfortable with, and all because I ate with my hands.

It happens that I love to eat with my fingers, but I never imagined that it would make me popular!

[touaregsand]

Here's a link to a piece I wrote about dining manners several years ago....  (proof that it was writtena while ago is that both of the people referred to in the present tense in the first paragraph are no longer living).  http://www.stratsplace.com/rogov/good_manners.html

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I read the piece. I don't even know what to say. I appreciate you posting the link.

[Ondine]

Like Mooshmouse, I grew up with the Asian way of eating - fork in left hand as a pushing instrument, spoon in right as scooping instrument. When I got taught to eat with knife and fork I learned the form that keeps the knife in the right hand, for cutting, while the left hand spears things and conveys them into the mouth(what style is that called?). I only put the knife down and eat with fork in right hand (no utensil in left hand) when eating alone, as my left hand often has a book in it.

I was told once that people who 'zigzag' their forks and knives look down on those who eat with utensils in both hands as being somewhat uncouth, as if one needs to have two utensils-worth of effort to inhale one's food. Is that true?

[the Bill]

wouldn't you know....just as we were discussing crossed forks and table manners at a restaurant last night, the waiter sidles up to me and tells me that evidently my shirt is on backwards! I'd like to be able to say that I did it for the amusement of my table companions, but alas that was not the case. it is possible to do wrong in one's own culture

[emmapeel]

I was told once that people who 'zigzag' their forks and knives look down on those who eat with utensils in both hands as being somewhat uncouth, as if one needs to have two utensils-worth of effort to inhale one's food. Is that true?

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If we are speaking of Western standards, I think it is the opposite. I grew up eating with the "zig-zag" method, and the European method (utensils in both hands) was considered "European", and neither superior nor inferior. It has been said in this thread that others consider the "European" method superior.

What I like about this thread is the reminder that cultures are different, and what is acceptable in one is not in another. Although I complain about my one pet peeve that I see outside my home (utensils held with a fist), I'll eat rice with chopsticks, a spoon, a fork or my fingers at home, whatever strikes my fancy that moment, and I actually love to eat simple salads with my hands.

[Country Cook]

That's because you Yanks eat with the fork in the wrong hand. The fork goes in your left hand and the knife goes in your right. And they stay there! None of this putting the knife down and switching hands and nonsense like that!

Two examples of arbitrary manners amuse me:

1. Americans who cut a piece of meat, then lay down the knife and transfer the fork to the right hand.

Holding the knife and fork in the correct manner was one of my dad's bugaboos when I was growing up. We were not, under any circumstances, allowed to transfer cutlery from hand to hand!

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Being a leftie I just switch right hand for fork and left for knife, the rest of the world is backwards .

[Bob Musa]

if memory serves me correct, somewhere between 15 and 20 years ago there was a book (ostensibly a history of the "american" language) which devoted nearly a chapter to the issue of why americans hold their fork in their right hand. the reason had something to do with the fact that, on the frontier, people were too poor to afford forks (sounds like a monty python skit).

if anyone recalls the name of this book i would be eternally grateful as i have been searching for it for the last 10 years.

[Almass]

Eat with right hand- left hand - no hand, at the end of the day it is the way that you act in all echelons of your life which defines who you are.

Enforce higher standards upon yourself and your family and you will achieve higher standards. Maybe table manners were set for the upbringing of the children, maybe they were set to make meal time a happier experience where everybody shares the same ritual or maybe they were made for the so called "Les gens du meme milieu". The fact of the matter is you either do it because it is second nature to you or you do it to impress the Joneses in which case fogetaboutit.

Let me put it this way.

When all the money has gone, all what you are left with is your manners and savoir vivre.

[Grub]

if memory serves me correct, somewhere between 15 and 20 years ago there was a book (ostensibly a history of the "american" language) which devoted nearly a chapter to the issue of why americans hold their fork in their right hand.  the reason had something to do with the fact that, on the frontier, people were too poor to afford forks (sounds like a monty python skit).

if anyone recalls the name of this book i would be eternally grateful as i have been searching for it for the last 10 years.

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Bob, I'm not certain, but this does remind me of something Bill Bryson would cover...

Could it be "Made in America," or possibly, "The Mother tongue" ?

[Bob Musa]

Bob, I'm not certain, but this does remind me of something Bill Bryson would cover...

Could it be "Made in America," or possibly, "The Mother tongue" ?

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by gawd, i think its "made in america", but amazon says the book has a copyright of 1994 and for the life of me i swear i read the book in the eighties. it looks like it covers the same material however, as there is a chapter on "manners" and one on "cuisine". i'm 90% certain its the same book. many many thanks grub, i've spend hours searching for this.