Say that again?

[KateW]

One note of caution in re to funny mispronunciations: make sure the mispronouncer has a sense of humor before bringing it up. Back in my college days, I was out walking with the young woman with whom I lived at the time, and we passed a pet store where she remarked on the cute "dash-hounds" (in fact, dachshunds) I swear... if I were to call her up today and say nothing but the word "dash-hound" she would A) instantly know who it was, B) tell me to fuck off, and C) hang up.

That is TOO funny--today we wandered by the pet store in the mall and my fiance said oh look at the dash-hound (it WAS very cute). I giggled and said it correctly. I'm not sure if he was kidding or not but I let it slide. I think I criticize him on pronounciation enough as is. He still can't say "au gratin". (aw tragin?)

[Pickles]

I had a beau way back when who took me to a wonderful Spanish restaurant in NYC and ordered the "PIE-ella." I dumped his ass!

[ellencho]

I've got issues with some of Gale Gand's pronunciations. I've heard her pronounce Challah bread using the same "ch" sound you use in the word CHeese. And in another show she pronounced roquefort "rokiefort".

[Pan]

Yes, and how should I be pronouncing "cumin"?

I pronounce thusly:

Herb = "erb"

Cumin = "koomin"

Culinary = "kyoolinery"

But I'd also like to say that differences in accent among native speakers don't cause "wrong" pronunciations of English words. "Herb," "kyoomin," and "kullinery" aren't "wrong." Because frankly, based on majority usage, New York City accents are "wrong," and I think that idea is just stupid.

Some of you might be interested in looking at the results of a U.S. Dialect Survey.

[Eric_Malson]

If Merriam-Webster is "notoriously unreliable", this is the very first I've heard about it.  Unless something has changed in the last 20 years or so, M-W is the standard reference for the English language as it is used by Americans.

Y'know, it's so long since I consulted it that at this moment I disremember whether it was the 2nd or 3rd edition that was so roundly censured by the language community - whichever one it was, though, a good deal of it made its way into the on-line version, which is why I tend to take it with many grains of salt.

The OED is the standard for a much smaller portion of the English-speaking world, and its ideas on pronounciation are pretty much irrelevant to English the way it is spoken in America.  It sure is great on history of usage, though!

It sure is - and that's exactly why I value it for Quixotic quests like this one, history of usage being EXACTLY what I'm trying to track down!

It was the 3rd edition of Webster that was "roundly censured by the language community". Still, as far as I know, there hasn't been a serious contender for its replacement as the American standard.

And I certainly agree with you about the OED's immeasurable value as a dictionary and chronicle of the history of English usage. All I'm saying is that this value does not in any way extend to an informed opinion on pronunciation in accepted American usage.

[stephenc]

Who are all of you?

Here in the northeast, I'd say 4 out of 5 people say "bay-sil"

We do that so that there would be more confusion between basil and a bay leaf.

Edited April 5, 2004 by stephenc (log)

[Bux]

I had a beau way back when who took me to a wonderful Spanish restaurant in NYC and ordered the "PIE-ella." I dumped his ass!

The French seem to have taken well to the dish and it's quite popular north of the Pyrenees where it's referred to as something close to "pie-la." I'm picturing an American tourist ordering paella and "pooly foosy" and being completely misunderstood.

[tryska]

Cafe Michel. Smyrna GA

Spicy Sautéed Vegetables over imported Pasta Du Jur and a garlic butter sauce

I'm going to have to have a talk with the owners of this place. they are very nice people, and to be honest - English is not their first language. And i don't think French is either.

great kwee-shay over there hto.

Edited April 5, 2004 by tryska (log)

[tryska]

oh and btw - can someone please tell me where the "r" is in "colonel"? and how come it's gone missing?

Edited April 5, 2004 by tryska (log)

[JSD]

Some of you might be interested in looking at the results of a U.S. Dialect Survey.

this link was fascinating. Last week I heard the following on NPR:

Click here for linguistics prof talking about how people east and west of the Rockies pronounce things

You may or may not agree with her, but I had never heard of pronunciations migrating south from Canada to the Western U.S. I have often thought difference in pronunciation in different parts of the country to be interesting and charming, not wrong. I thought it was disappearing because of TV, though.

[chiffonade]

Some French faves:

Vichysoisse being pronounced vichyswah.

Foie Gras being pronounced foy grah (amongst others).

Brunoise pronounced brunwah

[chiffonade]

I'm surprised mescaline salad didn't make the first page.

Yeah but then you're too wired to eat it.

[lala]

When I was doing my externship from the CIA (semester out in the 'real world'), I toiled in a very high end English Country Manor (I'm American). My counterpart, Anne, a lovely girl from England worked front of the house, and on slow nights/mornings, we were often the only ones on staff.

She was very intelligent and aware, however, she had this amazing habit of Malapropisms which just cracked me up. My favorite was when she came running back into the kitchen, late one night, her face beet red. Instead of offering the Very Proper Elderly Gentleman and his Stoic Wife the Exotic Sorbet plate, she had offered him the "Erotic" Sorbet Plate. Wifey gave her an earful, while Hubby was apparently enchanted by this novel dessert idea.

[ZenFoodist]

Just last night at our dear friend's wedding our waiter offered as one of the fish entrees "HAL-EE-BOO." It took me a few secs to realize he was talking about halibut and when I actually ordered it, pronouncing it correctly, lhe ooked at me aghast as if I were some unrefined moron. Strangely enough he called the MOET, Mo-ETT....

Weird guy,weird wedding, awful food.

[Stigand]

Strangely enough he called the MOET, Mo-ETT....

I seem to remember that Moet is actually pronounced with the 'T' (_pace_ Freddie Mercury ). 'Haliboo' is pretty unforgivable though...

[Mabelline]

I was horrified and aghast in about the fifth grade when I learned that the time-appropriate Latin pronounciation of Julius Caesar was Who leous KAY-sar. That ruined me for the first ten minutes of whatever Roman drama or comedy I viewed right on up till now. It is all relative in a way, for I understand that pockets of people in the Appalachians and Cumberlands to this day use words and pronounciations that are Elizabethan English. And down South, I have personally come across words still in common usage that are extinct in other parts of the country. But it's still just all in good fun. Took me 45 years and college to come to terms with scythe, draft and scilla.Scythians. Nagitoches. Waxahachie .America. Wonderful.

[petemelb]

Terry Durack wrote a good piece in the Sydney Morning Herald a couple of weeks ago (Article was - Guide to the good life - The 40 foodie things you should know by the time you're 40.)

One of the pointers was - "How to pronounce things correctly".

He wrote - "The three worst culprits are trattoria, bruschetta and gnocchi. If we can learn to say them correctly, then perhaps the waiters of the world will follow. So, it's broosketta, not brooshetta and nyokky, not nokky. Trattoria has the same sound structure as diarrhoea, not Victoria."

[Cynthia G]

I understand that pockets of people in the Appalachians and Cumberlands to this day use words and pronounciations that are Elizabethan English.

Here in Northern New Mexico there are many people who use 400 year old Spanish idioms, words, and pronounciations. They lived in virtual isolation in the canyons and mountain villages after the Conquest. There are many, many food words that are completely unrelated to current Spanish usage. We have a Marist Brother from Madrid with us this session and he and our cook Della (whose family has lived on this mountainside for hundreds of years) cannot understand a great deal of what the other says, even though they both claim to be speaking Spanish!

[balmagowry]

Instead of offering the Very Proper Elderly Gentleman and his Stoic Wife the Exotic Sorbet plate, she had offered him the "Erotic" Sorbet Plate. Wifey gave her an earful, while Hubby was apparently enchanted by this novel dessert idea.

So am I.

In fact, I'm thinking this might be worth creating.

In fact, I think this might deserve its own thread.

In fact, think I'll go start same - with acknowledgment to Lala, of course.

[angeltriano]

Pan set a - Pancetta

All kinds of horrid mutilations of Worcestershire

Grow yer - Gruyere

hol un day - Hollandaise

...and those are just from the last couple of days while I was in the kitchen.

Yes, from the mouths of the waitstaff who are supposed to be selling these things!

I cringe when I hear French, German and Italian pronunciation horror stories from the sommelier ("sahm un yay" to the waiters). Finely educated waitstaff from a maitre d' whom I've heard say "supposably."

AAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

--Angela

[jhlurie]

And I still haven't seen any reason for pronouncing it like a carcinoma. You wouldn't say "Bay-sil Rathbone," would you?

You wouldn't. But an herb and an actor are not necessarily the same thing.

[Susan G]

oh and btw - can someone please tell me where the "r" is in "colonel"? and how come it's gone missing?

Blame the Brits........(in the 14th century??) they wanted to use the French military/nobility titles without sounding "foreign", so a home-based spin was put on them..........also how the French "mar KEE" became the British "MAR kwiss". Can any UK-speakers back me up on this?

[balmagowry]

And I still haven't seen any reason for pronouncing it like a carcinoma. You wouldn't say "Bay-sil Rathbone," would you?

You wouldn't. But an herb and an actor are not necessarily the same thing.

(Less'n the actor's named Herb, of course.)

Same spelling, though - in a perfect world (which this is, right?) that oughta count for SOMEthing....

:sigh:

[Pan]

And I still haven't seen any reason for pronouncing it like a carcinoma. You wouldn't say "Bay-sil Rathbone," would you?

You wouldn't. But an herb and an actor are not necessarily the same thing.

I think for many, they would be, whether "Bay-zil" or otherwise. I've heard various people use that pronunciation for the name, too.

My father's name for him, though, is "Rasil Bathbone."

[stephenc]

Just wondering...

How do you all pronounce the word "sherbet?"

I pity the poor fool who pronounces it anything other than sher-bert.