Do you want insults with that?

[project]

Random Alias

"Really, I wouldn't get surly with the workers at a fast food restaurant, esp. if they're teenagers. Aside from my propensity to overdo any order for extra condiments, I never did anything nasty, but then I was only there for 5 weeks and quit before it got to be a case of serious hatred for me."

It has occurred to me. That's one of the reasons I don't like the situation on either side of the counter and started this thread.

Nick:

"Project, you're headed for a heart attack getting this worked up over fast food joints. MacDee's ain't exactly the French Laundry."

The risk of a heart attack is more just from eating the food with high saturated fat and high cholesterol. Somehow so far I've lived through all the bad food; must have reasonably good body chemistry genetics.

tommy:

The example of telephone directory assistance was another pet peeve: So, for a number, first did need the area code. Then dial the area code and 555-1212. The first thing heard was "What city, please?". I assume that they knew what area code I had called and, really, without that the city, maybe Smithville, would not mean much. Given the area code, and given how small they are, that should have been enough; they should not have needed to hear the city from me.

When I got a CD of all the phone numbers, I could type in just anything; e.g., I could get the phone numbers of all the Smiths in the whole country. If my little computer and CD could do such a look-up anywhere in the country, then huge AT&T with all their computer expertise should have been able to look up a name given the area code.

Actually, eventually I concluded that computing was not the issue. So, sometimes I would get a phone number with area code and wonder where the phone was. So, I would call the area code and 555-1212 and answer their question with "Right, what city is this?". They always knew. They have always known what cities they were serving and never needed to get that information from me.

My guess is that, for reasons of privacy or legal liability, AT&T wanted to keep people from using Directory Assistance as a way to search for people knowing only the area code. So, AT&T insisted that a caller give at least the city.

Also, in many of the counties within 100 miles of New York City, there are a few identifiable 'cities' and otherwise there are many small towns and 'townships' all grown together. Further, the town and Zip code on a person's postal address just says what post office serves that person and doesn't always correspond to the town or township otherwise. E.g., the Wappingers Falls post office at 12590 serves a lot of people that live in the towns or townships of Hopewell Junction and Lagrangeville. Moreover Hopewell Junction has a post office; many people served by the Wappingers Falls post office are in fact much closer to the Hopewell Junction post office. Really, then, to find a person's phone number, often just the area code or county is about as much as a requester can be sure about. So, when directory assistance asks for "city", a person might answer "Hopewell Junction" or "Lagrangeville" when the postal address, and likely the telephone directory listing, says Wappingers Falls.

Chad:

You, tommy, and others see the problem as the design of the keys on the point of sale terminals. I see the cause as 'suggestive selling'.

Ah, maybe I'll take the advice here: Take sympathy on the employees as they are forced by the owners to force customers to decline cheese and French fries explicitly. Maybe a joke to laugh it off:

"Right! No cheese, French fries, Mackerel Snackerel, Cumberland sauce, 'Sauce Bordelaise', 'foie gras', or truffles, not this time thank you -- I'm driving." Take my time about it since the employee is likely getting paid by the hour.

Or, get back at the owners by engaging in a really long back fence conversation, discussing the weather, asking "Are the hamburgers fresh today?", asking the employee's advice "What do you recommend that is particularly good today?", changing my mind a few times, asking if the cheese is American, Swiss, French, cow's milk or goat's milk, asking if the mustard is brown or yellow, etc. Totally blow all the owner's profit on the deal!

But there is another solution: Don't go to those places very often. Besides, mostly Subway is better nutrition. Also, in my area, very curiously, there are more small Chinese places than MacDee's, Wendy's and Burger King combined, maybe even if we throw in Pizza Hut and Domino's. And for lunch the Chinese places provide better nutrition and flavor and are nearly as fast and cheap.

We should have a concern about US national security: One guy that worked on food science at McDonald's became a problem sponsor at DARPA!

It was good to see what others thought about such things!

[fresco]

Leaving aside all questions of courtesy or technology, I'd want to treat anyone handling my food as respectfully as possible in the hope that they would respond in kind.

[sparrowgrass]

Chad, it was the part about starting a major electrical fire that made me blow diet coke out my nose.

[tommy]

The example of telephone directory assistance was another pet peeve:  So, for a number, first did need the area code.  Then dial the area code and 555-1212.  The first thing heard was "What city, please?".  I assume that they knew what area code I had called and, really, without that the city, maybe Smithville, would not mean much.  Given the area code, and given how small they are, that should have been enough; they should not have needed to hear the city from me.

the entire state of NJ, until very recently, was made up of 2 area codes. hardly a situation where the operator should magically know the city.

you're losing me here. but i think we're getting off topic anyway.

Edited January 29, 2004 by tommy (log)

[GordonCooks]

Gee, people, my real take is different, it's all 'suggestive selling': So the employees are told to force the customer to decline explicitly both cheese and French fries. Curious that others do not see the cheese and French fry questions in this way.

The last time at a local Burger King, the guy asked the usual cheese and French fry questions, I winced, and he explained "We are supposed to ask these questions."

jackal10:

Brilliant!

Engage in extended grunting, mumbling, and gesticulating! Scratching is permitted, even expected. Or

"When you get the order, I will quit picking my feet on the counter."

Kim WB:

"Actually, I find the way you ordered to be very irritating.

For future reference, the registers are designed to specifically omit things, so ' A biggie single without tomatoes' might be the ticket here. Or perhaps the old 'walk a mile in their shoes' therapy."

What did you find irritating?

Years ago I got the impression that the registers had a key for 'with everything' and then some keys for subtractions.

Of course the menu just has the base item and no item 'with everything'.

However recently in my area I've gotten the impression that the terminals have a key for the base item and one key for each topping to be added.

tommy:

"you just gotta go easy with these folks. they hate talking to you as much as you hate having to deal with them."

My closest McDonald's is in a relatively low traffic area in a relatively well to do neighborhood, and the place is staffed with many very well behaved very pretty high school girls with excellent social skills, sensitivities, and 'presentation of themselves before the public' to borrow from Irving Goffman!

So, the worst situation was when I had been working in the yard for about six hours on a hot day, was very hungry, was too tired to cook, and it was already late for supper, so went to that McDonald's. I was totally in no mood for back talk. Of course, the management was forcing the girls to ask about cheese and French fries and, thus, to engage in interactions of a kind they would normally do only to someone they really hated if then. So, with me and their management, they were between the rock and the hard place. The result was that a manger came to the window and executed the order and the high school girl retired in tears.

Thus, you are fully correct!

Also, eventually that McDonald's quit the rude practice. I have to guess that some of the girls or their parents told the management that enough's enough, that if they want really nice girls as employees, then the management will have to let them act in reasonably nice ways and not be forced into behavior they would never do otherwise.

So, now at that McDonald's, I can give an order and have it executed, quickly, pleasantly, no questions or back talk!

Andrew Fenton:

"Tommy is absolutely right. That said, I don't understand how you were insulted in any way."

I was insulted because of the interruption and the refusal to execute a clearly given order until I explicitly declined cheese and French fries.

The instance showed that they actually were able to receive and execute the order as I gave it. In that instance, I did get the manager to come over and repeated the order exactly. There were no interruptions, questions, errors, or delays. They weren't happy about it, but they did it.

Mayhew Man:

"I don't believe anything is to be gained by trying to show your intelligence and good breeding when all you really wanted was a half assed hamburger anyway.

Do you really feel better after you have given a couple of snappy comebacks to a high school kid who knows his job is lame but also knows that he needs the dough?"

No, I'm not happy about it, which is why I started this thread.

My real objection is with the owners that insist that their shift supervisors insist that the employees require customers to explicitly decline cheese and French fries or refuse to execute the order.

Chad:

"I've been on the other side of that drive-through. A lot of customers are assholes. So are a lot of fast food employees. Add to that the fact that fast food employees are generally not encouraged to think creatively -- or even think at all."

I believe that the employees are nearly always fine. I have little or no complaint with the employees. My complaint is with the owners that insist that customers decline cheese and French fries.

At one local Wendy's, the policy seems to be just to take an explicit order as given, no questions. They say so little I have to ask for a confirmation! But they are terrific: They just get the order correct the first time, reliably!

In the beginning at McDonald's, there was a radically different 'sociology' to the order process. Then nearly all the order takers, nearly all the junior employees, were teenage boys, and the atmosphere was borrowed from competitive athletics. The employees took pride in getting the order correct on one hearing, filling the sack quickly, and adding the amount while filling the sack -- no questions at all.

My guess has been that some 'social psychologists' advised McDonald's management that this process was 'socially stressful' to some customers and that the order process should be more like two women having a back fence conversation, lots of interruptions, lots of back and forth.

The people actually can take an order as given; it is just that somehow, on both sides of the counter, the 'social norms' are for a long iterative process.

Did wonder what others thought!

Are you my ex-wife ? Kim, is that you?

[project]

tommy:

"the entire state of NJ, until very recently, was made up of 2 area codes. hardly a situation where the operator should magically know the city.

you're losing me here. but i think we're getting off topic anyway."

Well, the 'topic' partly became principles and practices of interactions between customers and customer service!

For decades computer based data base indexing and search technology has been quite up to the task of searching across not just one area code but twenty. By 1970, plenty was known for a simple application such as telephone number look-up; by 1980, good general purpose software for much more general data base work was available. Now such software is available in open-source, e.g., MySQL. A slow PC can do such telephone number searches with a CD in a slow CD drive. For some really amazing indexing and search, notice Google.

Sure, if looking up "Joe Smith", then will need more information than just an area code in NJ.

If looking for "Hercules Ball and Chain", "Tony's Industrial Waste Carting and Disposal", or "Richard M. Nixon" in NJ, then the area code should have been enough. Further, there are so many little towns and townships in NJ that they cannot be very relevant. Besides, I found that if I specified, say, Piscataway, then the directory assistance person might say "There is a listing for a Hercules in New Brunswick". So, even when I gave a town, essentially they didn't need it.

Again, I don't think that they were asking for the city because they really needed it or even used it for the search itself and, instead, were asking for some legal or privacy issues.

Ah, often the flip side of a problem is an opportunity: At the fast food places, often the employees taking the orders are pretty girls. Soooooooo, since I can't just give an order and have it filled and, instead, have to interact, might as well flirt with the girls, get them to smile, maybe blush. Since the saturated fat and cholesterol might have me keel over any minute, might as well enjoy ordering the fatal food!

[project]

tommy:

"the entire state of NJ, until very recently, was made up of 2 area codes. hardly a situation where the operator should magically know the city.

you're losing me here. but i think we're getting off topic anyway."

Well, the 'topic' partly became principles and practices of interactions between customers and customer service!

For decades computer based data base indexing and search technology has been quite up to the task of searching across not just one area code but twenty. By 1970, plenty was known for a simple application such as telephone number look-up; by 1980, good general purpose software for much more general data base work was available. Now such software is available in open-source, e.g., MySQL. A slow PC can do such telephone number searches with a CD in a slow CD drive. For some really amazing indexing and search, notice Google.

Sure, if looking up "Joe Smith", then will need more information than just an area code in NJ.

If looking for "Hercules Ball and Chain", "Tony's Industrial Waste Carting and Disposal", or "Richard M. Nixon" in NJ, then the area code should have been enough. Further, there are so many little towns and townships in NJ that they cannot be very relevant. Besides, I found that if I specified, say, Piscataway, then the directory assistance person might say "There is a listing for a Hercules in New Brunswick". So, even when I gave a town, essentially they didn't need it.

Again, I don't think that they were asking for the city because they really needed it or even used it for the search itself and, instead, were asking for some legal or privacy issues.

Ah, often the flip side of a problem is an opportunity: At the fast food places, often the employees taking the orders are pretty girls. Soooooooo, since I can't just give an order and have it filled and, instead, have to interact, might as well flirt with the girls, get them to smile, maybe blush. Since the saturated fat and cholesterol might have me keel over any minute, might as well enjoy ordering the fatal food!

[Busboy]

I would suggest that the best response in the situations you outlined -- as in so many cases -- is to embrace common courtesy and avoid the juvenile impulse to, say, drive teenage girls to tears, pull the manager away from his other duties, mouth off or otherwise slow down service to the customers waiting behind you.

You manufacture an insult, where none exists, and then take revenge on low-paid service workers whom, even you admit, are doing their job.

I don't think they are the problem, in this case.

[project]

Busboy:

"I would suggest that the best response in the situations you outlined -- as in so many cases -- is to embrace common courtesy and avoid the juvenile impulse to, say, drive teenage girls to tears, pull the manager away from his other duties, mouth off or otherwise slow down service to the customers waiting behind you.

You manufacture an insult, where none exists, and then take revenge on low-paid service workers whom, even you admit, are doing their job.

I don't think they are the problem, in this case."

You seem to be devoted to the employees.

In the Wendy's case, I was giving my order clearly, and they interrupted. That's one insult. After I gave my order clearly and said "That's all", they asked my about French fries. That means that they ignored what I had just said. That's a second insult. Then they refused to execute until I explicitly declined cheese and French fries. That's a third insult. As experience showed (see below), the design of their point of sale terminal had little to do with the situation.

Interrupting people and ignoring what they have just explicitly said are insults anywhere at least in the English speaking world. I didn't "manufacture" these insults.

I was just giving a perfectly reasonable order very clearly, paced appropriately, and what I got back were three insults.

There is a fourth insult: Cheese and French fries are high on the list of foods that contribute to obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and stroke.

None of their questions or stoppages were necessary: This situation was determined because after the manager came over and saw the stressful situation, I gave the order once more, as before, except a little louder and faster, and then the manager looked hurt, hung her head, said nothing at all, turned, executed the order, quickly, and completed the transaction, very unhappy. While I am very sorry that the manager was unhappy, in the end, the manager did in fact execute the order as given without interruptions, without insisting on pointless information, without refusing to execute, and without insults.

So, in fact, they really could just execute the order. They were actually capable of doing so. Design of point of sale terminals, etc. are not fundamental: They really could do it.

I very much did not like the situation. I didn't want the stress for them, the other customers, or myself. I didn't want to be a hated customer that would get something unsavory in my food.

But they were the ones that came across with three insults, on their own, for their own reasons, without any cause from me, all three proven unnecessary. In no way did I deserve the three insults, or the fourth.

I fully agree with you that the solution is to "embrace common courtesy". I started out with exemplary courtesy, deliberately so because from earlier experiences anticipated their actions and wanted to be sure I had done nothing outside of "common courtesy" to stimulate those actions.

"Common courtesy" is a two way street, and three insults in a row all within a few seconds is enough for me to conclude that "common courtesy" is not what is going on.

For the teenage girls, I'm an old fashioned guy that regards girls as sugar and spice and everything nice and very much hate to see girls under any stress or unhappiness at all. The girls are really good at smiling, being nice, etc., and I hate to see them cry. Gee, I hope that all the girls will be on the way to having Donna Reed lives. I very much did not like the situation.

To me the really hard nut of this problem is the owners that apparently insist that their shift supervisors insist that no order be executed unless the customer has explicitly declined both cheese and French fries. Period. And otherwise people will lose their jobs, and there will be unannounced tests. More than one shift supervisor has told me that the employees are required to ask these questions. It's called 'suggestive selling'. So the owners are eager to violate "common courtesy" in hopes of getting a little more revenue from cheese and French fries -- both of which I try to avoid for nutritional reasons.

There is some hope: Some owners are willing to let their employees just execute a clearly given order. I have seen at least one McDonald's reverse their policy and become willing just to take and execute orders.

I have wanted a good solution and the views of others and, thus, started this topic.

So far my conclusions are (1) to avoid restaurants that violate "common courtesy" in insisting that their employees pursue 'suggestive selling', (2) go easy on the employees, (3) try to find some humorous responses, and (4) eat more at Subway and my local inexpensive Chinese restaurants,

Did the owners pursue "common courtesy"? No.

Was I deliberately insulted? Yes.

If an owner is eager to insult me openly and deliberately, should I also be concerned about other less obvious issues of 'quality'? I believe so.

Did I have a good way to handle the situation? No.

Am I sorry the girl cried? Very much so.

Is some change possible? Apparently so, but it's difficult.

Is there a good way to handle the situation? So far I haven't found one, even from this thread.

There is another point that should not be missed: In pushing specifically nutritionally questionable cheese and French fries on their customers, the owners may be pursuing a common reaction of vendors that their customers are fools to be taken advantage of and success in business is doing the best at taking advantage of the customers. Further, the insults can tend to put the customer in an insulted, inferior, and more compliant state, better to be taken advantage of. That is, the owners may be getting perverse pleasure and a sadistic 'power trip' from getting away with pushing nutritionally questionably food on their customers.

Curious that few on eGullet agree with me. Interesting.

[GordonCooks]

There is another point that should not be missed: In pushing specifically nutritionally questionable cheese and French fries on their customers, the owners may be pursuing a common reaction of vendors that their customers are fools to be taken advantage of and success in business is doing the best at taking advantage of the customers. Further, the insults can tend to put the customer in an insulted, inferior, and more compliant state, better to be taken advantage of. That is, the owners may be getting perverse pleasure and a sadistic 'power trip' from getting away with pushing nutritionally questionably food on their customers.

Finally, someone has the courage to show how truly evil these people are. What about all the others?...Like Olive Garden ? I'm told as soon as you walk through the door, people are trying talk you into Italian food. I mean "REALLY" What if you don't like italian food?

[Jensen]

More than one shift supervisor has told me that the employees are required to ask these questions. It's called 'suggestive selling'. So the owners are eager to violate "common courtesy" in hopes of getting a little more revenue from cheese and French fries -- both of which I try to avoid for nutritional reasons.

[...]

Was I deliberately insulted? Yes.

[...]

Is there a good way to handle the situation? So far I haven't found one, even from this thread.

In another industry, we used to call that "upselling"; it's a cornerstone of sales.

What I don't understand is this: you have been told by "more than one shift supervisor" that this is a required practice at various fast food outlets. It obviously is something that bothers you, seemingly enough to make an issue out of it at every occurrence, and yet you continue to put yourself in what is clearly a confrontational situation for you.

Why don't you just stop patronising these restaurants? They're not going to stop asking if you want fries with that. They're not going to stop verifying whether you want cheese on your burger.

These aren't insults. They're sales techniques.

The obvious solution is to either accept it or stop going there! Simple...

[MsRamsey]

Ah, often the flip side of a problem is an opportunity:  At the fast food places, often the employees taking the orders are pretty girls.  Soooooooo, since I can't just give an order and have it filled and, instead, have to interact, might as well flirt with the girls, get them to smile, maybe blush.

I'd pay good money to hear what they're saying about you in the break room. Guys who do this are just SKEEVY.

And to consider the casher interrupting you an "insult?" I thought *I* was paranoid.

Edited January 29, 2004 by MsRamsey (log)

[beans]

In the Wendy's case, I was giving my order clearly, and they interrupted.  That's one insult.  After I gave my order clearly and said "That's all", they asked my about French fries.  That means that they ignored what I had just said. That's a second insult.  Then they refused to execute until I explicitly declined cheese and French fries.  That's a third insult.  As experience showed (see below), the design of their point of sale terminal had little to do with the situation.

Then why do you continue to subject yourself to your self-defined "insulting" situations?

Not having worked in fast food, but for a corporate restaurant chain, a standard script is the norm, as is asking about, say the cheese, because it might make that extra $.50 in sales -- or may have been inadvertently forgotten by either the order taker or order giver.

Throughout this thread I keep shaking my head with the resounding question: How is it insulting for the order taker to ask questions so as to make sure your order is correct??

I am apathetic to your discomfort in the ordinary communication exchange between guest/customer and ordinary fast food employee.

I can't even get started on the "pretty girl" or the reducing these poor employees to tears aspects of your post(s)/opinion(s)/observation(s)/annoyance(s) that are to conjure up sympathetic support within this thread.

[FistFullaRoux]

Project,

No offense, but I think you are off the mark here. I've worked the drive thru at McDinkels, and you have to remember a few things.

The voice quality you hear at the order sign is the same thing I heard in the headphones. Add traffic noise and an engine running 2 feet from where you are, and it makes it very difficult to hear clearly. I would rather ask again than put the order together wrong. Throw in an unfamiliar accent, and it was just better in the long run to have them pull up to the window to get their order.

Were they rude to interrupt you? Sure. A case could be made for that. Did I have to use suggestive selling? Yes. Although this was pre supersizing, they still wanted me to sell large fries instead of small. And a manager could put on a set of headphones and monitor me at any time. So I did it.

Many times, in order to satisfy the company line of "No customer should wait more than xx seconds before being asked for their order" and "Drive thru orders are to be fulfilled in xx seconds", I often greeted customers and took orders while not standing at the register. You would hope it was a simple order, because you were pulling drinks for the 3 cars in front of you, and checking the fries to see how much longer they would be. If it was a simple order, I knew the total without ringing it up, and could punch it in on my next trip by the register. If it was a no xx or xx with extra xx, I'd have to get to the register, and verify it with the customer. If someone else asked me a question while all this was happening, a complex order just floats away, and you have to try to reconstruct it when you get back to the register.

And this whole thread reminds me of the George Carlin "AND A LARGE ORANGE DRINK" routine.

[cdh]

Since you are so dead set against any form of interpersonal interaction in the process of ordering lunch, you might want to find places that allow you to order directly from a machine, which serves as intermediary between you and the back of house.

Having mentioned geography like Hopewell Junction, I'm guessing you're in NJ not far from Princeton. If so, seek out a Wawa. They've very recently installed touch screen ordering devices at all their deli counters. That way you can order a good and tasty hoagie or other deli sandwich, and never have to trade words with a potentially insolent human being.

Edited January 29, 2004 by cdh (log)

[WHT]

If so, seek out a Wawa. They've very recently installed touch screen ordering devices at all their deli counters. That way you can order a good and tasty hoagie or other deli sandwich, and never have to trade words with a potentially insolent human being.

Yikes!

[Jensen]

Since you are so dead set against any form of interpersonal interaction in the process of ordering lunch, you might want to find places that allow you to order directly from a machine, which serves as intermediary between you and the back of house.

Another option would be to find a restaurant that does take-out and fax your order in to them, along with a pick-up time.

Or, you could have a little card made up that reads as follows:

"Hello. I am profoundly deaf. Please fill the following order exactly as written: [insert order here]."

Or, do what I've done in the past ... double up on your meds.

[Kim WB]

Having mentioned geography like Hopewell Junction, I'm guessing you're in NJ not far from Princeton.

Yikes! He's not that close, is he??

[tommy]

it seems that not many people are agreeing with Project on this one. however, i've heard that there are plenty of posters who share these opinions at www.ihatemyselfforeatingatwendys.com

Edited January 29, 2004 by tommy (log)

[bergerka]

There is a fourth insult: Cheese and French fries are high on the list of foods that contribute to obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and stroke.

This is a put-on, right?

I mean, I thought "project" was serious until I read the above quote. Dude, if you're trying to avoid foods that contribute to obesity, etc., um, WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU DOING IN A FAST FOOD ESTABLISHMENT????

This HAS to be a put-on.

K

[melkor]

Isn't Hopewell Junction in NY?

[mongo_jones]

chicken lady loves life!

(nothing to do with this thread but noticed someone named chickenlady is reading this page right now)

[EllenC]

Not to sound too obnoxious here but... I too have been on both sides of that counter. I worked my way through high School at McDs and I think that project has a point. When I go to a fast food place, I generally know what I want and the first thing I want from anyone in service is a little civility. An interruption is rude pretty much anywhere in the US and it is more particularly rude when the other person is paying for your time. I was also taught to upsell even 20 years ago, (I can't believe it been that long....) but my managers/trainers were careful to let me know that they wanted HAPPY customers. It is entirely possible to wait until someone has finished ordering and, even if they say, "That's all," you can certainly say something like, "Could I interest you in some hot, delicious fries with that?" (Nevermind that the fries may not be either of those things.) I think that one of the points being made here is that there is a general lowering of standards in service and we should feel free to point that out.

OTOH project, I do think that when the girl interrupted, you could have stated, politely and firmly, that you knew just what you wanted and that you would like it quickly. This would have let her know that upselling was not an option. Any manager listening in would have understood then what was happening.

Just my two cents...

[MsRamsey]

This HAS to be a put-on.

Perhaps the poster is doing a "project" to see what kind of responses he'll get. I feel so cheap.

[VeryApe77]

This HAS to be a put-on.

My thoughts exactly.

Parts of this thread reminded me of Nabakov at his prime (it was the stuff about blushing teenage girls that sealed the deal)