A Prison Food Discussion

[adrober]

Interesting responses, everyone. I wish I would have thought about the prison farming issue before I turned in my paper. It does make me think of a wonderful (and terrifying) book we read for class: "Worse Than Slavery" by David Oshinsky. It talks about the creation of Parchman Farm, a huge prison plantation (a close cousin to Angola), where "prisoners" (mostly innocent black people rounded up) were forced to work the land in a manner akin to if not identical to slavery. I think forced labor is an issue that makes many people nervous today, although there is evidence that bored, restless prisoners are more dangerous, misbehaved than occupied, busy ones.

For some reason, this topic makes me think of Les Miserables: how Jean Val Jean the criminal was "restored" and made human again when the priest lets him off the hook for stealing the silver. He says: "I just bought your soul back for God."

I think its easy to underestimate the power of good will in dealing with those who have been shown little, if any, good will in their lives. Prison is a place for punishment, yes, but maybe food can be the one area where good will creeps in. It's difficult, though, when running an institution that needs to be consistent to be overly generous in places. For that reason, the varied food for varied behavior sounds like a good idea too.

I've enjoyed reading everyone's responses...

[fifi]

I think that there is a fundamental difference between having meaningful work, performed in a safe and humane manner, and "slave labor" conditions. Meaningful work is a positive thing. I really don't get the argument that you can't have convicts working. Growing and producing food, then cooking it, is such a basic part of life that I can't see the downside of having the convicts contribute to that effort.

[Pan]

I think there's a big difference between convicts growing the food they eat as opposed to producing something that profits a company that runs their prison, simply because prisoners are paid cents on the hour (what's the going rate?). I'm not the least bit troubled by having prisoners grow their own food, but the use of prison labor to produce profits for a company that manages prisons like a factory bothers me, not least because it's a way of getting around minimum-wage laws and can undercut products produced by free labor.

[SethG]

adrober, thanks for posting your paper.

I am a criminal defense lawyer in New York, which gives me no special insight into what prisoners are fed. I have had the occasional tour of a prison, but most of my contact with my incarcerated clients comes in visiting rooms (where they are not fed) or in pens behind courtrooms (where they are fed unappealing, but not exactly cruel, bologna and cheese sandwiches).

I do have a great deal of familiarity, however, with the people who are incarcerated, and I don't think it's outside the scope of this thread for me to point out that most incarcerated people are not about to cause a riot or create a discipline problem. Most incarcerated people are not violent, and most of them have never committed a crime of violence. A large percentage are addicted to heroin or cocaine.

In New York, if a prisoner is a discipline problem, that prisoner is forever saddled with what is called a "red ID." Such prisoners are segregated from other prisoners, and whenever they are moved about they have big orange padded mittens clamped around their hands. There are a vartiety of other humiliating treatments given to inmates who don't cooperate. Meddling with their food just seems like sadism to me.

I also want to note that if cost is a factor, we should take into account all costs, and not just that of food. When we choose (as we in America have chosen, for the most part) to incarcerate rather than treat drug addicts, we opt for the most expensive option available. Treatment (and all kinds of other social services) is much cheaper than incarceration, yet initiatives toward treatment (rather than warehousing) of drug addicts are still the exception. Are we willing to pay to remove drug addicts off our streets-- while they serve very lengthy sentences, compared to people who commit actual violent crimes-- but skimp on the food to save money? Again, this sounds like sadism to me.

[fifi]

Yeah, Seth. I agree. Our policy toward drug addicts is insane. But, I also think that getting the inmates involved in something as basic as the production and preparation of food is one route to rehab. The Vitapro scandal here in Texas was obscene. We have a lot of land for growing grain and raising cattle and here is this big scandal about providing soy based food for the prisons. That is just nuts.

[Fat Guy]

As a former criminal defense attorney -- it was not my career focus but I spent a year doing white collar defense work and also handled white collar clients when I practiced on my own -- I have to agree with much of what Seth just said. Most of the 2.1 million people under incarceration in the US are non-violent. The minor drug offenders (who nonetheless sometimes get amazingly long sentences) are just one category of relatively non-violent prisoners. Some of the white collar criminals I defended would probably be heavy eGullet users were they not spending all their time fighting esoteric federal securities-fraud charges. Every time I dealt with one of these clients, I thought there but for the grace of God go I. I don't see any reason to torture such people by giving them horrible food, as that guy in Maricopa County advocates.

At the same time, there are hundreds of thousands of prisoners who are deep into the scumbag category. Rapists and murderers, in my opinion, deserve whatever food they need to survive and that's it. I have no problem using any means necessary to control them, including quality and quantity of food. Their incarcerations should be unpleasant.

Pan, you mentioned some statistics that to me sounded strange. Maybe Seth, who is in the business, can clarify, but I was under the impression that in the state and federal prison systems there aren't all that many pretrial detainees. I mean, there are a bunch, but it's not a huge percentage of the inmate population as far as I know. Pretrial detention is most commonly performed by local jails, where something like half the inmate population is in there awaiting trial and the rest of the inmates are serving 30 day sentences or are otherwise mostly transient. I'm not aware of what the conviction rates are among pretrial detainees, and of course pretrial detention is an area of the law frought with problems, but I think the numbers you're citing must be an illustration of one particularly active local jail and not the US penal system overall.

As Holly said, feeding 2.1 million people 2-3 meals a day is big business. It is no surprise, therefore, that there would be resistance to the prison system becoming agriculturally self sufficient. Just as local supermarkets hate it when the government gives away free cheese in their areas, those who provide food to prisons aren't going to like it very much when those prisons start growing their own. I can only imagine the budgets these companies have for campaign contributions.

[ExtraMSG]

It's amazing that most facilities are not like Angola. Every state prison system should be self sustaining, at least in terms of food.

While it's a nice thought, I don't think it's feasible in most cases. Wyoming prisoners would be on a forced Atkin's diet year round. A good goal, though.

I think there's a big difference between convicts growing the food they eat as opposed to producing something that profits a company that runs their prison, simply because prisoners are paid cents on the hour (what's the going rate?). I'm not the least bit troubled by having prisoners grow their own food, but the use of prison labor to produce profits for a company that manages prisons like a factory bothers me, not least because it's a way of getting around minimum-wage laws and can undercut products produced by free labor.

A good point. I think prison labor is fine, but it shouldn't really be part of the market. It should be used for public works, self-sufficiency, retribution for victims, and charity. Prisoners should be making their own clothing and food, doing their own plumbing, cooking, and laundry, building houses for habitat for humanity, and making toys for the children of victims they've harmed They should be like slave elves of the Keebler and North Pole variety.

Pan, you mentioned some statistics that to me sounded strange

FG, I actually had a post with a bunch of these statistics and accidentally lost it (damn back button didn't bring it up). But I've spent more minutes trying to assemble, so here goes again:

Pan was right (my bad). Over half of jail inmates are unconvicted. Of course we don't know the context from these statistics. These are more likely to be previously convicted criminals and criminals accused of violent and serious crimes, I would think. Also this is jail inmates which may not be the same as prison inmates, the latter term usually being reserved, it seems, for those in state and federal prisons:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cpus98.pdf (table 2.6)

Also, more than half of those accused are convicted:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cases.htm

And, though my sympathies are with you and Seth on drug offenses (I'm a libertarian in favor of drug legalization, ultimately), the stats seem to show that a plurality of offenders in prison, nearly half, are violent criminals:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm

Only a fifth have a drug offense has their most serious crime.

[Pan]

Thanks a lot for the links with the stats, ExtraMSG.

[Fat Guy]

Pan was right

"Jails" are local facilities that exist specifically for the purpose of housing inmates awaiting trial, serving short sentences, or otherwise moving quickly through the system. It is to be expected that a good number of those in jails are awaiting trial, because that's what jails are for. Jails are however a small part of the penal system, I think roughly 1/4 of it. The 3/4 of inmates in actual prisons (state and federal institutions) are as far as I know overwhelmingly convicts. Judging from his earlier post it seems likely that Pan is under the misimpression that more than half the incarcerated population in the US is awaiting trial. I believe the number is more like 15%. If somebody is in possession of the exact number, perhaps it could be posted. Beyond that, I hope we can refocus on the food issues here.

the stats seem to show that a plurality of offenders in prison, nearly half, are violent criminals

In other words, the majority of inmates are non-violent. Again, we can live without the exact number or we can get a solid number, but the basic point remains that either a majority or a very significant number of prisoners in the US have not been convicted of violent crimes. I believe it is meaningful to consider that when we discuss what to feed them.

[fresco]

One other practical difficulty is that prisons are just about the only "industry" of any size in many communities. They were placed where they were, I suspect, as a revenue source for these communities (often political plums) and making them self sustaining in terms of food or anything else would be deeply unpopular.

[ExtraMSG]

In other words, the majority of inmates are non-violent. Again, we can live without the exact number or we can get a solid number, but the basic point remains that either a majority or a very significant number of prisoners in the US have not been convicted of violent crimes. I believe it is meaningful to consider that when we discuss what to feed them.

You gotta click on the links, FG. The number is 49%. Also, just because the other offenders weren't convicted of a violent crime (or, more accurately, a violent crime wasn't their highest offense), doesn't mean that they aren't violent criminals. They may have never been caught for their violent crime. They may have had a gun or knife on them when they broke into someone's house and burgled it or they may have had a gun on them when they stole a car, but they never used it. A drug dealer may be a murderer who's killed several competing drug dealers, but only got caught for possesion. I don't know that it matters that much though. The most significant percentage of offenders are convicted violent criminals.

"Jails" are local facilities that exist specifically for the purpose of housing inmates awaiting trial, serving short sentences, or otherwise moving quickly through the system.

As I said, that's a possibility, but the terms aren't defined as far as I could tell in the report. I still doubt that most people who are incarcerated are unconvicted, but Pan was right in one context and deserved my apology.

[Pan]

Nah, I didn't deserve an apology.

But at least your figures on jail population would seem to show where I got my (mis-)impression that a majority of inmates are awaiting trial.

[Fat Guy]

ExtraMSG, in the interests of keeping this topic from becoming a debate about prison statistics, I'm going to let it go and simply leave it at this: I do not interpret the data as you do, and if I did it wouldn't substantially affect any aspect of the food-related discussion here. Thanks.

[bourdain]

Perhaps here, Burger King would be a good idea.In fact--all the Burger King they want.. Less agile, more easily-winded felons and flabbier, slower-moving recidivists might be a real step in the right direction!

[Fat Guy]

How much better would that ad have been if, at the end, Bayless had been sitting in a prison cell sharing a sandwich with his cell-mate, Zebediah?

Also I think if prisoners are to be given Burger King, only the better behaved ones should have the "Have it your way" options such as "Off the broiler."

[Mayhaw Man]

My script for the current smackdown is still in flux. I could easily change the ending and have Bayless in the can.

I will discuss with my partners (the Coen Brothers) and see if we can work Bayless in prison into our treatment. You guys will, of course, recieve any residuals due to you for this idea after accounting gets down with the books (don't plan on any big purchases, we have some great accountants)

[adrober]

When I toured prison, I kept thinking to myself: "This looks like my high school."

Interestingly, my high school actually had Burger King and Pizza Hut as an alternative to cafeteria sludge. Needless to say, this kept my classmates very happy. I brought my own lunch.

And as tongue-in-cheek as Bourdain's comment may be, I have no doubt that nothing would delight prisoners more than access to fast food. In my death penalty class this semester (I had a very socially aware semester), there was a case where a suicidal death row inmate who didn't want to put forth mitigating evidence at his trial was coerced into doing so when his lawyer promised to bring him KFC every night.

Around and near the Atlanta Federal Penitentary are conspicuous croppings of Church's Chicken, Wendy's, Krystal, and of course McDonalds. Is this a coincidence?

And if we agree that prison food can help reform prisoners, are we also looking to reform taste? Maybe the difference between a murderer and a scholar is the difference between a Bic Mac and a steak tartare.

[fresco]

I did notice that many death row prisoners choose fried chicken as their last meal. But then again, the location of the states where the death penalty is being carried out may have a lot to do with this.

[Mayhaw Man]

I did notice that many death row prisoners choose fried chicken as their last meal. But then again, the location of the states where the death penalty is being carried out may have a lot to do with this.

Then again, it may be the quality of the fried chicken available to the condemned.

[Mudpuppie]

One thing child psychologists say is that food should never be used as punishment or reward. I agree. Further, eating is a basic human right by virtue of the fact that it’s a human need. My feeling is that, contrary to what a lot of people believe, inmates shouldn’t be stripped of basic rights or needs.

That said, while eating is a right, eating well isn’t necessarily. Eating well is something we’ve evolved into, though, and it’s something we take for granted. (No more acorns or carrion. Now we have BK and El Bulli!!) (I’m proud that those two institutions will probably never again show up in the same sentence.)

So has eating well become a basic human right? I think so.

Would supplying prisoners with mo’ betta food contribute to, or constitute, prison reform?

Nah…. The system’s broke, broke, broke. The food’s just a small part of it.

[Pan]

Food never used as a reward? Is it wrong for someone to treat you out to a special dinner to celebrate a birthday, wedding, promotion, graduation, or some other milestone or achievement? Or was there something I didn't understand about your point?

[robyn]

Perhaps here, Burger King would be a good idea.In fact--all the Burger King they want.. Less agile, more easily-winded felons and flabbier, slower-moving recidivists might be a real step in the right direction!

Perhaps you ought to read more about correctional facilities budget issues. One of the largest these days is health care costs (medicare/medicaid don't take care of prisoners). You could buy an awful lot of prime rib for the cost of a kidney transplant. Robyn

[robyn]

OK - let me try this without being ad hominem. A bunch of you here are lawyers - and some of you are expressing concern about what prisoners eat. If you're conservative - I will note that we have about 78,000 prison inmates in Florida - and most of them are scum (I did some criminal defense work - not white collar). If you're liberal - I will note that we have 365 people on death row - and most need lawyers to help them in post-conviction appeals (the public defender only handles the first post-trial appeal). So I really don't see that food is an issue that's terribly important.

I will also note that the prison that's closest to me is Starke (where a lot of death row inmates are housed). I don't know how many of you have ever been to Starke, Florida. There's not much that can be grown there (it's very rural - but it's basically "cattle country" - an area where cows graze before they're sent to the finishing lots in Texas). And the 2 fanciest restaurants in town are Woody's BBQ and Cedar River Seafood (both local chains where the expensive meals are less than $10). So I doubt the average prison worker in Starke (yes it is pretty much a "company town") is going to be very receptive to a whole lot of food-oriented stuff.

On the other hand - one of the new prison things that's about to be started here in Florida is a voluntary "faith based prison". I think it's kind of stupid (and probably unconstitutional) - but I know there's a lot more support for it state-wide than any possible "reform" that has to do with food.

I suspect that Florida isn't unique in terms of its prisons. When I was in college - I tutored kids in a reform school in upstate New York. The area where it was located was similar to Starke (but colder).

Anyway - if you're a lawyer - and you care about prisoners- there are a lot of things you can do that are about 1000 percent more important than food. And - if you don't care about prisoners - I'm sure you don't care about their food either. Robyn

[Fat Guy]

Having never been incarcerated (though I did come close once when a federal judge got really pissed at me), I can't really imagine what it's like, but I can make an educated guess. I assume my primary concern would be avoidance of rape. After that, I'd generally wish to avoid violence being done to my person. But assuming those things could be avoided, and assuming I'm out of appeals, stuck in prison, basically healthy, and just sitting around in a cage for 23 hours a day for years on end without much to do, I imagine minor differences in food quality would seem pretty damn important to me.

[Chad]

Robyn, you make some excellent points. And you obviously have a lot of experience with the system. There are millions of other things that attorneys (wherever they may fall on the political spectrum) could be doing to influence prison systems.

However, Adam (adrober) has chosen this topic to write about. He's decided to combine his interest in food with his love of the law for a particular paper for a particular class. And he raises some interesting questions.

There have been myriad ways in which politicians, prison administrators and social welfare people have tried to influence prisoner behavior. For example, the original Stairmaster was designed in the 1800s as a way of keeping prisoners occupied (and worn out, one presumes) as a way of punishment. Others have tried faith, education, harsh discipline, isolation, et al -- all in the name of modifying prisoner behavior. Some of it has worked. Most has not.

But has anyone ever really examined the role of food in prisons?

I'm not saying that a good meal or two is going to change the heart of a serial rapist. There are some people beyond redemption. But I think the role of food in such a restricted environment is worth exploring. With so many other variables of human interaction restricted, food grows to inordinate imporance (much as it does on eGullet ). Just read Cell Block Cuisine, part 1 and Cell Block Cuisine, part 2 to see how food is elevated even in (I presume) a minimum security prison.

There is a lot to be explored here.

Is food the be-all and end-all of prison life? No.

Will the quality of food change the life of a prisoner? Probably not.

Can the quality of the food in a prison affect prisoner behavior? Probably.

Can food be used as reward and punishment? Yep. But should it?

All questions worth trying to answer.

Chad