Attacking Italian Restaurants

[Jaymes]

they actually prefer crap, if said crap is good looking.

And I guess that as an American, I am as susceptible to this as anyone else.

It may not be how I select a tomato, but, God knows, that's how I wound up with my first ex-husband.

[Pan]

I think most Americans simply have never experienced really good produce.

And I think you're wrong.

I think that in the summer, many Americans grow their own delicious tomatoes and other produce, and a great many more buy it from the various roadside stands and farmers' markets.

My assumption is that most Americans live in urban areas, but I guess upon reflection, I think more are in suburbs. And by "really good produce" I mean Italian or near-Italian quality. Some California produce is quite good, but in general, not up to Italian. But I think that, having no way to measure what percentage of Americans have had really good produce or what "really good" is, we'll have to agree to disagree.

[John Whiting]

I think that the sad truth about American eating and buying habits can be summarized in a few brief statements.

1 Statistically, the mass of the American populace is not seriously interested in the flavor of their food in a critical or comparative way.

2 Average Americans shop by car, and so want to go to a single large store where they can buy everything they need.

3 Economies of scale have produced an expectation of cheap food which has turned into a demand.

4 Americans have adopted a life style which leaves little time for cooking, and so they buy their meals ready made. (Surveys continually bear this out, and the trend is accellerating.)

5 A prosperous and vocal minority resists these trends and has gradually set up alternative sources. They are not cheap. The traditional food of peasants can now be afforded only by the rich.

I say America -- but all of the above are increasingly true of the rest of the world as well. America was the first of the modern industrialized countries to become really prosperous, and so they got there first. WalMart is the largest corporation, not only in America, but in the world, and it's still growing. Globally, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. To paraphrase P.T. Barnum, no one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the buying public.

[Jaymes]

2 Average Americans shop by car, and so want to go to a single large store where they can buy everything they need.

As opposed to shopping on foot, or via tube, bus, taxi, etc., and therefore not minding the additional 5-10 so miles to go to the farmer's markets?

[Jinmyo]

2 Average Americans shop by car, and so want to go to a single large store where they can buy everything they need.

As opposed to shopping on foot, or via tube, bus, taxi, etc., and therefore not minding the additional 5-10 so miles to go to the farmer's markets?

I shop (in Canada) by car so that I can hit five different stores in an hour.

[Jaymes]

2 Average Americans shop by car, and so want to go to a single large store where they can buy everything they need.

As opposed to shopping on foot, or via tube, bus, taxi, etc., and therefore not minding the additional 5-10 so miles to go to the farmer's markets?

I shop (in Canada) by car so that I can hit five different stores in an hour.

Right. I simply couldn't GET around to my favorite farmer's markets (never mind out to the "pick it yourself" farms) without my car. I don't understand this one at all.

[John Whiting]

I didn't make any of my statements up. They occur repetitively in survey after survey. (I have to read a lot of them these days.)

Some of you, I'm sure, use your cars to shop around. You're the lucky ones who can afford the time and the gas. Statistically, Americans are one-stop shoppers, and it's most likely to be Wal-Mart. Except in prosperous neighborhoods, the other supermarkets survive only by imitating them.

I haven't even mentioned the sad fact that something like a quarter of Americans (and Brits) can barely afford the cheapest and worst of the supermarket products. Their kids will probably demand branded junk food, so they can't afford to experiment with food that will probably have to be thrown away.

Here's an interesting quote from a food industry executive a few years ago:

"Two hundred years ago everybody made their own clothes. Nowadays we haven't time to do that -- we go out and buy our clothes. Nobody makes their own clothes unless it's their hobby. The same thing will happen with food: I estimate that in about 50 years time dinner will be something people will go out and buy, and nobody will cook, unless it's their hobby. We in the food industry are working towards that."

[robyn]

I think most Americans simply have never experienced really good produce.

And I think you're wrong...

My assumption is that most Americans live in urban areas, but I guess upon reflection, I think more are in suburbs. And by "really good produce" I mean Italian or near-Italian quality. Some California produce is quite good, but in general, not up to Italian. But I think that, having no way to measure what percentage of Americans have had really good produce or what "really good" is, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Gosh - how many arguments like this can you guys have ?

The simple fact of the matter is that different countries do certain things better than others. Is the food in Italy better than the food in the US? Yes. Is the plumbing in the US better than the plumbing in Italy (or most of the rest of the world for that matter). Yes.

So what do you want? A great tomato - or a great shower. I have found unfortunately that you're unlikely to find a country where the average person has easy access to both.

Of course - there are countries that don't do *anything* well - but Italy and the US aren't two of them. Robyn

[Pan]

Hmmm...I don't remember having any problems with taking showers in Italy, nor has that always been trouble-free in the U.S. But I'm not going to argue about plumbing!

Anyway, though, I take your point.

[slkinsey]

By the way I had some stinco di asino just the other day.

Did you really?! You are the only other American I know, besides me, who has eaten asino. What did you think? Personally, I could live without it.

[Pan]

I have to admit I've always found "stinco" a funny word.

[slkinsey]

The simple fact of the matter is that different countries do certain things better than others.

This, I think, is a statement that begins to get back on track towards the heart of the matter. The fact is that, in terms of what is available to the average consumer, ingredients in Italy tend to be better than the ingredients in America. The fact of the matter, which is readily apparent to anyone with familiarity with the two cultures, is that food is simply much more important to the average Italian than it is to the average American. I don't think that anyone who has spend significant time in Italy, particularly in a capacity other than as a tourist, could argue that this is not the case. Food, and specifically a pride in the qualoty of local ingredients, is one of the most important aspects of being Italian to an Italian. There are many things that are important to Americans about being American, but great food and local food traditions would have to be pretty low on the list.

Whereas an average Italian would refuse to buy second-rate fish, and would rather go without, an average American will buy the second-rate fish because it's the best they can get and they want to have fish. This fact is illustrated in a number of Jaymes' arguments and is a fundamental difference between the Italian outlook and the American outlook. As I have said before, I think a certain amount of this is due to the fact that it is extremely difficult to eat truly regionally in America (as nicely illustrated by jwagnerdsm's project to eat "only Iowa" for a year. As a result, I think it is the case that a very large percentage of Americans have never eaten any truly first-rate ingredients. The percentage of Americans who shop at farmers markets, or who pay twice as much to eat organic, free range eggs is truly minute. Even assuming that every American has eaten a truly pristene, vine-ripened tomato at its very peak... it's pretty clear that eating this kid of thing on a daily basis is not of primary importance to most Americans.

So... this is one aspect of the question "why doesn't Italian food taste the same in America?" At the average neighborhood restaurant level, it is quite clear that the Italian establishments in general use better ingredients. So, they don't taste the same because the ingredients here are not as good. This is also due to the fact that the average Italian restaurant in America is expected to offer, say, fried calamari and linguini with clam sauce regardless of whether there are any fresh calamari available or whether any nice fresh clams have come in.

At the highest levels, I think the difference is more a matter that the food tastes different (although perhaps not inferior) because 1) locally-sourced foods taste different depending on the source; and 2) Italian restaurants in America have to cater to American preferences and customs to make money.

[slkinsey]

I have to admit I've always found "stinco" a funny word.

Heh. And "stinco di asino" is even funnier, when you think about it.

[Craig Camp]

By the way I had some stinco di asino just the other day.

Did you really?! You are the only other American I know, besides me, who has eaten asino. What did you think? Personally, I could live without it.

It is quite popular for large dinner parties and is served all the time at local festivals - alway on huge mounds of steaming polenta.

Actually I think it is quite tasty, but a bit rich.

[Fat Guy]

Well, for me at least, the ingredients issue is put to bed. I'm of the opinion, and I believe the facts support that opinion, that a well-financed restaurant chef in a major city outside of Italy can get excellent local products as well as top-quality intact air-shipped products from most anywhere.

But I think we may have missed a point that needed to be discussed before that one: I'd be interested in exploring the commonly made assertion that Italian food is totally dependent on high-quality local ingredients. I began to suspect that this was bullshit when I started thinking about pasta. For one thing, the raw material is being imported. For another thing, there is no particular need for regional production. And perhaps most importantly, it seems there are countless pasta dishes that don't depend particularly on the excellence of fragile hard-to-ship local ingredients. Especially when you consider that Parmigiano-Reggiano, middle-market Italian olive oil, and made-in-Italy dried pastas are common fixtures in supermarkets throughout the industrialized world, I would think that many pasta dishes are not all that geographically dependent.

[vserna]

Victor: I'm more than happy to accept your list, arguendo as they say, because for the purposes of this discussion I think it proves the point I'm trying to make: that we need to move past the claim that the ingredients in Italy are categorically better than elsewhere. If we took your shortened list of ingredients, a savvy chef with Italian sensibilities, and a few pantry staples (either imported from Italy or found here at equivalent quality levels), we could produce year-round excellent menus at a very respectable level of diversity -- more diverse than the menus at most restaurants in Italy, to be sure. (By the way I want to learn more about the sushi trade with Spain; is there any information in English on that?)

To approach this from another angle: Does Italy import agricultural products? And if so which ones? I know Italy imports plenty of wheat from North America -- mostly from Canada, I think. So we can say that pasta in Italy is largely based on an imported product. What are the other major products flowing into Italy, if any? Are they going to have to import olive oil this year on account of the lousy harvest?

Several responses...

1. I am not defending the idea that Italy, little Italy, has all the best ingredients in the world, even though it does have the greatest tomatoes by a mile. But I do believe western Europe as a whole, with three main agricultural powers (France, Italy and Spain), has the richest portfolio of top-notch ingredients in the world; more than the USA. There is also more popular resistance to industrial uniformity of foods in Europe (not to mention genetically modified ones...) than in the USA.

2. More on bluefin tuna from Spain to Japan...

http://www.harvard-magazine.com/on-line/0902130.html

3. Yes, Italy imports American wheat; who doesn't? But top-quality pasta is made of durum wheat, and I think Italy is a pretty huge producer of that type of wheat. Also, Italy is the world's largest importer of Spanish olive oil (Spain being the world's largest olive oil producer) and for centuries all of this olive oil has been bottled in Italy under Italian brands. Of course this does not refer to top-notch single estate extra virgin olive oil from Umbria or Tuscany, which is indeed utterly local, but to the main "Italian" brands everyone is familiar with throughout the world.

[cdh]

1.[...]There is also more popular resistance to industrial uniformity of foods in Europe (not to mention genetically modified ones...) than in the USA.

I'm skeptical about the first half of this assertion given what I keep hearing about the mad homogenizers in Brussels. Europeans did elect them didn't they... so they do represent a majority of europeans, don't they?

[slkinsey]

Yes, Italy imports American wheat; who doesn't? But top-quality pasta is made of durum wheat, and I think Italy is a pretty huge producer of that type of wheat.

The best durum wheat is grown in North America in the largest volumes, and I think >80% of Italian-made pasta asciutta is made with North American wheat.

[balex]

1.[...]There is also more popular resistance to industrial uniformity of foods in Europe (not to mention genetically modified ones...) than in the USA.

I'm skeptical about the first half of this assertion given what I keep hearing about the mad homogenizers in Brussels. Europeans did elect them didn't they... so they do represent a majority of europeans, don't they?

nicely put

[balex]

But I think we may have missed a point that needed to be discussed before that one: I'd be interested in exploring the commonly made assertion that Italian food is totally dependent on high-quality local ingredients. I began to suspect that this was bullshit when I started thinking about pasta. For one thing, the raw material is being imported. For another thing, there is no particular need for regional production. And perhaps most importantly, it seems there are countless pasta dishes that don't depend particularly on the excellence of fragile hard-to-ship local ingredients. Especially when you consider that Parmigiano-Reggiano, middle-market Italian olive oil, and made-in-Italy dried pastas are common fixtures in supermarkets throughout the industrialized world, I would think that many pasta dishes are not all that geographically dependent.

A lot of other ingredients are not that local -- e.g. Pachino tomatoes in Milan or whatever. I think there is a specific problem with pasta asciutta in the U.S., but we don't have that problem here in the UK, and we have a similar Italian restaurant problem.

I reiterate my contentions that I made above that got lost in the American produce bickering, that one of the key issues results from the fact that people rarely eat a primo and a secondo, and that the chefs make things too complicated because of the way the restaurant market changes so rapidly in major non-Italian cities.

[Jaymes]

Whereas an average Italian would refuse to buy second-rate fish, and would rather go without, an average American will buy the second-rate fish because it's the best they can get and they want to have fish.

A thoughtful and non-judgmental post. The truth without arrogance and condescension and sweeping condemnation.

Thanks, Kinsey.

[slkinsey]

But I think we may have missed a point that needed to be discussed before that one: I'd be interested in exploring the commonly made assertion that Italian food is totally dependent on high-quality local ingredients. I began to suspect that this was bullshit when I started thinking about pasta. For one thing, the raw material is being imported. For another thing, there is no particular need for regional production. And perhaps most importantly, it seems there are countless pasta dishes that don't depend particularly on the excellence of fragile hard-to-ship local ingredients. Especially when you consider that Parmigiano-Reggiano, middle-market Italian olive oil, and made-in-Italy dried pastas are common fixtures in supermarkets throughout the industrialized world, I would think that many pasta dishes are not all that geographically dependent.

There are several things here:

1. Although the wheat to make the pasta is being imported, the production is taking place in Italy. At the mass-production level, it it quite clear to me that the Italian producers make a markedly superior product than the North American producers.

2. Beyond that, it is a fact that Italians care more about the quality of the pasta they are eating and care more that the pasta be prepared correctly.

3. Those two things aside, it is certainly true that one can use imported Italian pasta, imported San Marzano tomatoes and imported Italian olive oil to make a dish that tastes virtually the same as it would in Italy.

4. So, why is it the case that pasta dishes like this in America often don't taste the same? First, take a look at #2 above, which drastically increases the porobability that the pasta will come to the table at something other than peak done-ness. Second, as I have been saying before, one has to understand that Italian restaurants in America have to cater to American tastes to a certain degree if they want to make money. This means several things: A) it will likely be a much bigger portion of pasta; B) the pasta will usually have much more sauce; C) there is a significant probability that the pasta will be a "piatto integrato" containing significant emounts of protein, rather than being a simple primo.

5. #3 above notwithstanding, the majority of Italian pasta dishes are difficult to precisely replicate in the States because of issues having to do with ingredients. This doesn't strike me as too difficult to understand. It would be difficult to make pasta con le sarde in Milano that tasted like it does in Sicilia.

I think there are two separate issues here that are getting confused here. The first question is "why can't we make Italian food here that tastes exactly the same as it does in Italy?" To my mind, the clear answer is ingredients. The second question is "why don't we usually find Italian food here that tastes as good as it does in Italy?" That's a more complicated question, and while I think ingredients play a part, there are several other factors involved having to do with the cultural importance of food, regional preferences, etc.

[menton1]

Guy Jones of Blooming Hills Farm in upstate New York

Tim Starck of Eckerton Hills Farms in Pennsylvania

Cherry Lane Farms of Roadstown in Bridgeton, NJ

Mario Batali stands by them too; they are his three primary vendors at Babbo.

This illustrates my point!! In Eurpoe, a good tomato is readily available to everyone a short distance from their home;

In the US, 280 million people can not possibly be served by 3 tomato farms--

And yes, I also think that most Americans have never tasted good produce...

[sammy]

On the question of "Have most Americans tasted a great tomato," how does that bear on the inquiry?

Because the implication is that Americans are served crap in crappy restaurants because Americans cannot tell the difference between "good" food and crap, and when they can, they actually prefer crap, if said crap is good looking.

....and is served in huge quantities.

[balex]

Guy Jones of Blooming Hills Farm in upstate New York

Tim Starck of Eckerton Hills Farms in Pennsylvania

Cherry Lane Farms of Roadstown in Bridgeton, NJ

Mario Batali stands by them too; they are his three primary vendors at Babbo.

This illustrates my point!! In Eurpoe, a good tomato is readily available to everyone a short distance from their home;

In the US, 280 million people can not possibly be served by 3 tomato farms--

And yes, I also think that most Americans have never tasted good produce...

Europe is a bit too broad -- it is perobably easier to find good tomatoes in New York than it is in London or Stockholm.