All About Bourbon Whiskey

[thirtyoneknots]

Gary Regan would probably classify that under New Orleans Sours.  There is a drink called the Lola Martini which consists of OP vodka, triple sec, cranberry juice, lime juice, and elderflower syrup.  Although it doesn't have bitters, there are at least six drinks in his New Orleans Sours list that do include bitters.

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Yeah he bases the NO Sours after the Crusta, which originates there, though I think Dr. Wondrich makes an excellent case for those drinks being derived from the Daisy category in Imbibe! I like Joy of Mixology as a teaching tool, but I feel like the 'families' are too limiting and often devolve into sort of not making sense at times (Squirrels, anyone?).

[Splificator]

I still like to maintain that sours+bitters = Crustas, eg Pegu Club and the like, even without the defining "crust" of sugar.

FWIW, I think the whole point of the Crusta, as opposed to the Sour, was that it only had an accent of citrus--it was basically an old-school Cocktail with just enough lemon juice (say, a barspoon) to give it a flavor of lemon, without any of the attendant sourness.

I think if one had to choose a model-drink for the Spirit+Sour+Bitters class (assuming it's strictly necessary to stake off yet another category), there would be no better candidate than the Pegu Club itself, particularly since it's a non-American drink. As far as I can tell, the bittered Sour wasn't a pattern that pre-Prohibition American bartenders turned to when inventing drink. A quick look through a couple of the cocktail compendia from the teens oly turns up the Raymond Hitchcocktail, and that uses orange juice instead of lemon or lime.

[thirtyoneknots]

I still like to maintain that sours+bitters = Crustas, eg Pegu Club and the like, even without the defining "crust" of sugar.

FWIW, I think the whole point of the Crusta, as opposed to the Sour, was that it only had an accent of citrus--it was basically an old-school Cocktail with just enough lemon juice (say, a barspoon) to give it a flavor of lemon, without any of the attendant sourness.

I think if one had to choose a model-drink for the Spirit+Sour+Bitters class (assuming it's strictly necessary to stake off yet another category), there would be no better candidate than the Pegu Club itself, particularly since it's a non-American drink. As far as I can tell, the bittered Sour wasn't a pattern that pre-Prohibition American bartenders turned to when inventing drink. A quick look through a couple of the cocktail compendia from the teens oly turns up the Raymond Hitchcocktail, and that uses orange juice instead of lemon or lime.

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This question may be impossible to answer but could greater levels of bitterness in the vermouths of old create a scenario where the Bronx or similar can be lumped here?

I understand that the Crusta in its original guise was meant to be a citrusy "cock-tail" but I can't help but feel like the Pegu and those that follow are it's conceptual progeny, even if nobody was aware of it when dreaming them up. Also, maybe I'm imagining it, but didn't the original Pegu Club cocktail call for Rose's Lime? Quite a different drink that way I'd imagine.

Would you then call drinks like the Leap Year or your own Gotham closer to the Crusta concept, or are bitters essential?

Edit: correct redundancies

Edited December 23, 2008 by thirtyoneknots (log)

[slkinsey]

On Dec 23 2008, 01:26 AM, thirtyoneknots said:

Also, maybe I'm imagining it, but didn't the original Pegu Club cocktail call for Rose's Lime?

See here for details.

[thirtyoneknots]

On Dec 23 2008, 02:27 PM, slkinsey said:

On Dec 23 2008, 01:26 AM, thirtyoneknots said:

Also, maybe I'm imagining it, but didn't the original Pegu Club cocktail call for Rose's Lime?

See here for details.

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Ok yeah I thought I remembered that. The accent flavor of lime is even more of an accent, and even less sourness that way. Not that it's necessarily the best tasting accent, but it indicates that sourness was not necessarily a desired quality of the original drink, much like the Crusta.

[tim g]

dont know if anyone here's a fan of knob creek but -

Because you’re such a dedicated friend and loyal consumer of Knob Creek® Bourbon, we wanted you to be the first to know about some big news here at the distillery. For the first time ever, we’ve actually run out of Knob Creek.

Because you and your fellow Stillhouse members have done such a great job sharing your love of Knob Creek and spreading the word far and wide, consumer demand for our bourbon has finally outstripped our current supply. And we’ve got nothing left to bottle until November. So, from the bottom of our hearts, thanks for nothing.

Of course, we could bottle the next batch a little early to make up for the shortage, but we believe Knob Creek must be aged a full 9 years in order to reach its true potential. So we’re just going to wait it out. If you happen to experience a shortage where you live, just remember that everything will be back to normal this November.

Since things are kind of slow around here, we thought we’d do a little housekeeping by updating our address books. You can help us out by clicking here and taking a minute to verify and/or update your current information. We’d hate to lose contact with any of our good friends.

We’ll be in touch soon. And again, thanks for nothing.

Cheers!

Your friends at The Knob Creek Stillhouse

Edited June 25, 2009 by tim g (log)

[shantytownbrown]

Stopped in to a local shop last night on the way home from work (one I almost never go to) just to see if they had any thing new/different in the bourbon dept...(it was my birthday this week and wanted to buy myself something); I happened to, that morning, see a listing (but not a review) about Old Forester Birthday Bourbon 2009 being available; never had or heard this juice prior, but did read that past bottlings were "sought after";

well..there it was on the shelf of this shop...quite dusty tho...hmm new bottling, just released, already dusty, then i noted "2007" not 2009...$37.99/750ml...ok.., worth a shot, he has three bottles, i take one, go home, look up reviews and see how it goes...

well the reviews i found first were of the 2009 bottling, and it has been panned (78 from Malt Whiskey mag, nose of a box of baby diapers)...but over and over in the bourbon forums "not like the wonderful 2007"!! Jackpot..!! I went to the store this morning to buy out the last two he had...(for gifts)...

I will hopefully be able to post a tasting later this weekend...

of note he has 5 bottles left of last years Knob Creek...36.99/750...he's in connecticut if there is anyone local interested...

shanty

[thirtyoneknots]

of note he has 5 bottles left of last years Knob Creek...36.99/750...he's in connecticut if there is anyone local interested...

shanty

Has Knob Creek changed appreciably lately? Not a brand I go to much but I have some friends who it may find it of note.

[shantytownbrown]

Honestly i am not sure, there was just some fuss about them running out this spring...the new batch is supposedely arriving soon...never new what the fuss was about..knob creek for me can be credited for peaking my interest in Bourbons, but havent been back to it in quite some time.

btw the Old Forester BB 2007...nose was a little mint and "aldehyde", taste was very smooth, leather, cinnamon and allspice, a little lighter type bourbon, finish was very clean..overall a good, but not a great bourbon, I will have to give it another chance, once the bottle opens up a bit more...

[vice]

Just came across this in the November Harper's Index:

Percentage change during the past year in U.S. sales of Wild Turkey specialty bourbons: +88 (source: Information Resources, Inc. (Chicago))

Bang up job for WT. It would be interesting to know what 'specialty' implies.

eta: wayward parenthesis

Edited October 25, 2009 by vice (log)

[Chris Amirault]

Has anyone here been using the Henry McKenna BIB? Very big and spicy, great for mixing (unless you're a Maker's fan).

[thirtyoneknots]

So I bought a new bottle of Weller's 107 (one of my very favorite whiskies) yesterday and the label and bottle are both new--more in line with the design of the 12 year (the bottle is identical). One thing I noticed when I got home with it though is that there is now no age statement declared on the label--a trend in Bourbon I am definitely not in favor of. I remember last year (I think) the standard Weller was unavailable locally for a couple of months due to the distillery being unwilling to compromise on the age statement. I wonder if they have abandoned this stance, or if they just couldn't find room on the new label. Anyone know anything about this?

[KatieLoeb]

Recently had the pleasure of tasting the Eagle Rare 17 year old as well as some other fine examples of the genre at the 2009 Philadelphia Whiskey Festival. Here's a list of what was available for tasting that evening. Pretty heavy duty lineup. I tried to stick to the bourbons and ryes with a few exceptions made for high end tequilas and a few other outliers. Pretty ridiculous lineup of scotch as well, if that's your thing. Lots of fine bourbons to be had. Got to see Fred Noe (of Jim Beam) again, who is one of the most interesting characters in the business of making bourbon as well as a heck of a fun fellow. Fred did a bourbon tasting for the staff at Striped Bass awhile back, and I've seen him a few times since. He's always the life of the party and is always happy to remake anyone's acquaintance. Must be fun to be him.

[KatieLoeb]

On a separate note, I made some Peach-Apricot tea infused bourbon for Thanksgiving cocktails. The bourbon is really good. I got a few tea samples from my local tea shop where I buy the Cinnamon Chai tea I'm currently infusing into sweet vermouth for the Mother's Ruin punch on the menu at the restaurant. The Peach-Apricot tea was meant for commercial use as an iced tea batch. But since we already have a tea service at work that management is happy with, I brought them home to mess around with. Each bag is good for a gallon of water. I used it to infuse a 1.75L bottle of Evan Williams by heating up a tiny bit of the bourbon in the microwave and soaking the tea bag in it for about 5 minutes. Then I added the rest of the bottle and let it sit for about 1.5 hours and removed the tea bag. I strained the bourbon back into the bottle through a gold coffee filter and added a split vanilla bean. Next day I added just 1/4 cup of spiced simple syrup to round it out and mask any hint of bitterness or tannins that might have come from the tea. I took a small sample in to work that evening and test drove it on some of my co-workers. It was a hit all around. Best iteration was most definitely in a julep. I made a batch of mint simple syrup to make insta-juleps and not tie myself to muddling all afternoon Thursday. But I think it'll be well received. I'll report back on any other cocktail creations that ensue...

[MattJohnson]

Just tried some Old Weller Antique 107. It was like 21 at the local store and I wanted to try something different. I was worried that the overproof-ness would be too much, but I had it neat and it was quite good. Great for the price. Anyone else a fan?

[KD1191]

Just tried some Old Weller Antique 107. It was like 21 at the local store and I wanted to try something different. I was worried that the overproof-ness would be too much, but I had it neat and it was quite good. Great for the price. Anyone else a fan?

Yes, had this the other night in Sam Ross's Paper Plane: equal parts bourbon, Amaro Nonino, Campari (I think Sam's recipe now calls for Aperol, but Campari is so much better) and lemon juice. Normally, Elijah Craig is my go to for that drink, but it could not be located. The Weller worked very nicely. Was definitely able to stand up to the Campari. As such, I imagine it would likely make a good Boulevardier as well.

Edited December 16, 2009 by KD1191 (log)

[thirtyoneknots]

Just tried some Old Weller Antique 107. It was like 21 at the local store and I wanted to try something different. I was worried that the overproof-ness would be too much, but I had it neat and it was quite good. Great for the price. Anyone else a fan?

Weller 107 is one of my all-time favorites but as I noted a few posts back I'm a bit concerned with the new label lacking an age statement. I haven't been able to conduct a blind test yest but it seems as if the newer stuff is a bit different. Hope it's my imagination but at any rate it's a great whiskey regardless. Works just about any way you please but I'm especially fond of this one over ice with lots of water. Great flask whiskey, too.

[brinza]

Weller 107 is one of my all-time favorites but as I noted a few posts back I'm a bit concerned with the new label lacking an age statement.

You mean it's no longer "Seven Summers Old"? That is ominous. Last year I had someone bring me back a bottle Pikesville Rye from Maryland (I know it's not made there, but I figured that they should be able to easily find it there), and it's my understanding that it used to be aged 4 years, but this bottle is clearly marked "This whiskey is 3 years old." I don't think I like this trend. I hope distillers aren't rushing to get product onto the shelves and cutting time off the aging process.

[MattJohnson]

Weller 107 is one of my all-time favorites but as I noted a few posts back I'm a bit concerned with the new label lacking an age statement.

You mean it's no longer "Seven Summers Old"? That is ominous. Last year I had someone bring me back a bottle Pikesville Rye from Maryland (I know it's not made there, but I figured that they should be able to easily find it there), and it's my understanding that it used to be aged 4 years, but this bottle is clearly marked "This whiskey is 3 years old." I don't think I like this trend. I hope distillers aren't rushing to get product onto the shelves and cutting time off the aging process.

Yeah, I looked at my bottle and it sported the label "7 summers old." Maybe thats ominous, however, whether 6 or 7 years old, I enjoyed my glass of it - so kudos to them if the got it out a year early.

If you can't tell the difference, then why the difference?

[thirtyoneknots]

Weller 107 is one of my all-time favorites but as I noted a few posts back I'm a bit concerned with the new label lacking an age statement.

You mean it's no longer "Seven Summers Old"? That is ominous. Last year I had someone bring me back a bottle Pikesville Rye from Maryland (I know it's not made there, but I figured that they should be able to easily find it there), and it's my understanding that it used to be aged 4 years, but this bottle is clearly marked "This whiskey is 3 years old." I don't think I like this trend. I hope distillers aren't rushing to get product onto the shelves and cutting time off the aging process.

Correct. As far as I could tell from a thorough examination of the label, there is no reference to the age of the liquor. Strangely the standard entry level Weller has also changed bottles (to the same shape as this one--both like the bottle for the 12 yr) and it still sports the 7 yr age statement. Hopefully this is my imagination saying it tastes different because I too have found the recent trend in dropping age statements to be more than a little alarming.

[lancastermike]

Sitting here looking at a bottle of Woodward Reserve Masters Collection Seasoned Oak Finish I got as a gift yesterday. And let me say, it is one hell of a gift. The story is that the oak used to make the barrels was aged 5 years before the barrel was made. It is also all supposed to be from the pot stills. I have yet to taste it but plan to tonight. dark in color 100 proof. No age statement of any kind. Read the press release and a couple of reviews. Anyone here tasted this stuff?

[db_campbell]

Weller 107 is one of my all-time favorites but as I noted a few posts back I'm a bit concerned with the new label lacking an age statement.

You mean it's no longer "Seven Summers Old"? That is ominous. Last year I had someone bring me back a bottle Pikesville Rye from Maryland (I know it's not made there, but I figured that they should be able to easily find it there), and it's my understanding that it used to be aged 4 years, but this bottle is clearly marked "This whiskey is 3 years old." I don't think I like this trend. I hope distillers aren't rushing to get product onto the shelves and cutting time off the aging process.

Correct. As far as I could tell from a thorough examination of the label, there is no reference to the age of the liquor. Strangely the standard entry level Weller has also changed bottles (to the same shape as this one--both like the bottle for the 12 yr) and it still sports the 7 yr age statement. Hopefully this is my imagination saying it tastes different because I too have found the recent trend in dropping age statements to be more than a little alarming.

As much as I enjoy Old Weller Antique, I'm more concerned with how this potentially portends for the remainder of Buffalo Trace's wheated (well-aged) Bourbon line, particularly many of the Van Winkle bottlings. Not that I frequent the 20 or 23 yrs terribly often, but the 10, 12 & 15 yrs are pretty marvelous.

[mkayahara]

Yes, had this the other night in Sam Ross's Paper Plane: equal parts bourbon, Amaro Nonino, Campari (I think Sam's recipe now calls for Aperol, but Campari is so much better) and lemon juice.

What's the Amaro Nonino like? I'd love to try the Paper Plane, but can't really justify another amaro in the liquor cabinet right now. I've got Ramazzotti, Fernet Branca, Cynar and Suze on hand for bitters; would any of them likely work as a substitute?

[EvergreenDan]

I've got Ramazzotti, Fernet Branca, Cynar and Suze on hand for bitters; would any of them likely work as a substitute?

I routinely use any "spicy" amaro. Ramazzotti works extremely well, and I'm sure Cynar would to. I've never tasted Suze and Fernet would be a whole different drink (and would dominate).

The Paper Airplane is a favorite of mine.

[EvergreenDan]

Hmmm, a little research and I realize that I've been making this "wrong" with Campari. I'll have to try it with Aperol. I believe Nonino is a milder amaro than Ramazzotti, so I'd expect a more delicate, less bold, drink. I also got the name wrong, so I'm going to continue to call the Campari version Paper Airplane, rather than Paper Plane. I also prefer it on the rocks. It mellows nicely as you drink it, changing in a pleasant way (unlike most other drinks which become a watery mess).