avant garde cuisine in san francisco

[mikeczyz]

i'm going back to san francisco for one night in november. what are your picks for forward thinking cuisine in the city?

mike

[inventolux]

Zilch, OK perhaps Roxannes if you can get out there.

Edited October 9, 2003 by inventolux (log)

[mikeczyz]

Zilch, OK perhaps Roxannes if you can get out there.

that's what my research indicates as well. you been out there lately? looks like i might 'settle' for the fifth floor.

mike

Edited October 9, 2003 by mikeczyz (log)

[inventolux]

I have had good, solid experiences at the 5th, but I wouldnt label it avant garde. Roxannes is more cerebral to me, which is what I prefer.

[mikeczyz]

I have had good, solid experiences at the 5th, but I wouldnt label it avant garde. Roxannes is more cerebral to me, which is what I prefer.

have you been to roxanne's? the raw food movement holds only slight interest to me. i might see i can somehow squeeze the laundry into my schedule. if i can somehow get a reso.

mike

[mixmaster b]

I have had good, solid experiences at the 5th, but I wouldnt label it avant garde. Roxannes is more cerebral to me, which is what I prefer.

have you been to roxanne's? the raw food movement holds only slight interest to me. i might see i can somehow squeeze the laundry into my schedule. if i can somehow get a reso.

mike

I had a very interesting and enjoyable meal at Roxanne's in July. Raw food is not of particular interest to me, either, but the meal was still worthwhile. Many of the techniques are very unusual, and could perhaps be considered avant garde.

The best things I had were the coconut "noodle" pad thai, a coconut soup, and a lovely hierloom tomato salad. It had the most miniscule baby herbs on it.

If you are after unique cooking, it is a good place to go. However, some of SF's other restaurants might be more enjoyable from a "wow, that's delicious" perspective.

I wonder what Micheal Minna will be up to at the St Francis. Maybe not avant garde, but should be interesting.

[elizabethnathan]

Lorca

[elizabethnathan]

also manresa. it's outside the city though.

[klinger75]

Mike, I am not sure if George Morone has settled his shoes yet, and the name of where he was going is slipping my mind, but i feel he has been one of the more consistent chefs in SF over the years.

I wouldnt classify his food as avant garde, but a wonderful meal indeed.

Also a good meal at Zuni last time I was there( May 03)

I hope all is well with you.

Touch base soon

Klinger

[rshorens]

Isa at 3345 Steiner Street between Lombard and Chestnut is always good

Enjoy your trip!

Roz

[mikeczyz]

Mike, I am not sure if George Morone has settled his shoes yet, and the name of where he was going is slipping my mind, but i feel he has been one of the more consistent chefs in SF over the years.

I wouldnt classify his food as avant garde, but a wonderful meal indeed.

Also a good meal at Zuni last time I was there( May 03)

I hope all is well with you.

Touch base soon

Klinger

i may do zuni for lunch. i do have one lunch to use. i may go back to chez panisse cafe where i had an EXCEPTIONAL experience. i have business to attend to in berkeley so it makes perfect sense. who knows! so many choices, and so little time.

and this manresa place. i seem to recall an article where i heaard about all sorts of off the wall offerings, like scrambled eggs with maple syrup. kinda like alain passard at arpege.... was he recently reviewed by gourmet magazine? i think he was....earlier this year

mike

[Pan]

and this manresa place.  i seem to recall an article where i heaard about all sorts of off the wall offerings, like scrambled eggs with maple syrup.

Sounds wonderful to me!

Then again, most things with maple syrup would sound great to me (short of garlic with maple syrup and such-like), especially if it's Grade B.

[Gary Soup]

What the F is "forward cuisine?" Soylent Green?

[mikeczyz]

What the F is "forward cuisine?" Soylent Green?

forward THINKING cuisine

mike

[oscubic]

I'm not crazy about the Zagat guide but Roxanne's food rating dropped from a 25 when it's initial rating came out to a 21 currently. A little bird told me that they've had a lot of problems keeping staff...

[ExtraMSG]

From a look at their website, it's some of the prettiest culinary flagellation you could probably get your hands on.

Just remember keep your chewing to a minimum, you wouldn't want to break down any of those precious proteins. And for Nature's sake don't drink tea unless it's iced, you wouldn't want to accidentally cook anything in your stomach.

PS:

What the F is "forward cuisine?" Soylent Green?

As long as soylent green is people....tartare. Edited October 13, 2003 by ExtraMSG (log)

[chefg]

I have had good, solid experiences at the 5th, but I wouldnt label it avant garde. Roxannes is more cerebral to me, which is what I prefer.

Second that, go to Roxanne's, in my opinion the most forward thinking restaurant in the country...????? How creative do you have to be when you can't "cook" anything?! Pretty creative.FYI I may know some people at TFL.......

[ExtraMSG]

Second that, go to Roxanne's, in my opinion the most forward thinking restaurant in the country...????? How creative do you have to be when you can't "cook" anything?!

So then if you make biscuits and gravy with sawdust and sap, that'd be really avant garde?

Just from a culinary standpoint, shouldn't what is forward thinking only be praised if its form suits its function. The function of the culinary arts should always be foremost to please the palate, shouldn't it? Take your use of aromas at Trio. The reason that is so impressive to me is because it serves a purpose not only to entertain or to be clever, but to actually enhance the flavor of the food.

Roxanne's seems to be about ideology more than the palate. Obviously the restaurant is providing a very useful service and niche for those who have chosen that lifestyle. But for a non-raw-foodist to consider what they do as forward-thinking is a mistake. It's backward thinking. Would you be forward-thinking to toss out all fruits and vegetables from Trio? Should that impress us? It'd be no less difficult to create dishes that satisfied customers' varied hungers. Would an Atkin's restaurant that never served carbs be forward-thinking? Isn't it at best just a service for a niche group, like Kosher delis, or at worst ideology getting in the way of good food, like Muslim countries that ban pork?

I think people are too willing to praise something because of its ideology. I see the same thing up here at Higgins (in Portland, OR). Everything's organic and local. Yay. That's great. Now does it taste good? People overrate Higgins, which is a decent restaurant, because they like what it stands for. Well, I want a restaurant that stands for good food. And when someone says it's an avant garde or forward thinking restaurant, I want the best food, not ideology.

That said, I haven't been to Roxanne's. For raw foodists, it sounds like a great choice. But for the rest of us...

[mikeczyz]

That said, I haven't been to Roxanne's.  For raw foodists, it sounds like a great choice.  But for the rest of us...

Just to play devil's advocate, how do you know the food at Roxanne's doesn't both serve the niche group of rawists, and taste great? I admit, I am skeptical as to how good the food can taste, but then again, i've been eating cooked meat my whole life. I think it'd be an interesting experience.

mike

[ExtraMSG]

Just to play devil's advocate, how do you know the food at Roxanne's doesn't both serve the niche group of rawists, and taste great? I admit, I am skeptical as to how good the food can taste, but then again, i've been eating cooked meat my whole life. I think it'd be an interesting experience.

It may be good. I imagine it is. I imagine it's *really* good for what it is. However, my point is more that it being raw food should give it little if any special consideration as "forward thinking". They're not trying to make better tasting food and thus have moved to raw food. They're limiting themselves to raw food because of ideology, politics, pseudo-religious zeal, etc, and then trying to make something edible or good from there. That's not "forward thinking".

Like I said, no one would be calling a restaurant avant garde if it was an Atkin's diet version of the same thing. Why does Roxanne's get the praise? Because raw food is the flavor of the month.

[lizard]

Just some intel from a bay-area insider...

RE: Roxanne's, the service may be spotty due to some high turnover in their staff. Locally, there's a movement to boycott it due to their alleged ill-treatment of their employees. I'm not taking sides on this one, but you might want to do some digging before you commit to trekking up to Larkspur.

RE: TFL, they're closing in Jan. to go open their NYC location (name TBD), so resos of any kind are hard to come by, regardless of who you think you know. The 2-month window of reservations is shrinking, so unless you've worked with Chef Keller personally, they probably won't give up a manager's table.

Good luck!

[mikeczyz]

Just some intel from a bay-area insider...

RE: Roxanne's, the service may be spotty due to some high turnover in their staff.  Locally, there's a movement to boycott it due to their alleged ill-treatment of their employees.  I'm not taking sides on this one, but you might want to do some digging before you commit to trekking up to Larkspur. 

RE: TFL, they're closing in Jan. to go open their NYC location (name TBD), so resos of any kind are hard to come by, regardless of who you think you know.  The 2-month window of reservations is shrinking, so unless you've worked with Chef Keller personally, they probably won't give up a manager's table.

Good luck!

do you have any other information regarding the treatment of their employees? feel free to pm me

mike

[inventolux]

Just some intel from a bay-area insider...

RE: Roxanne's, the service may be spotty due to some high turnover in their staff.  Locally, there's a movement to boycott it due to their alleged ill-treatment of their employees.  I'm not taking sides on this one, but you might want to do some digging before you commit to trekking up to Larkspur. 

RE: TFL, they're closing in Jan. to go open their NYC location (name TBD), so resos of any kind are hard to come by, regardless of who you think you know.  The 2-month window of reservations is shrinking, so unless you've worked with Chef Keller personally, they probably won't give up a manager's table.

Good luck!

do you have any other information regarding the treatment of their employees? feel free to pm me

mike

Im sure every restaurant has the occassional disgruntled employee. In fact, when it takes 2 weeks to produce pistachio cheese, conventional kitchen wisdom is nil. You will have some digruntled classically trained employees that believe fermented legumes are the apocalypse of gastronomy. For me, I dont want the apocalypse of gastronomy, just the repudiation of philosophical judgement. Its OK to dislike a restaurant or the ideology of its leaders, but respect for its purpose is key.

[ExtraMSG]

In my experience, a place that has so much leftist ideology built into it often is a better employer but with more disgrunteled employees. The employees often come with the same ideology as the business and with higher expectations too. And almost no employer can (in fact, probably no employer can) meet the idealist expectations of the left. I imagine that rule increases the closer you get to cities like SF, too.

[matt t]

mike,

for a unique beautiful meal go to Burma Superstar on Clement st right around 4th and 6th streets. the food is unique, delicate and powerful. Semi "hole-in-the-wall" always a 20 minute wait but worth checking out. I have worked in the city for the past 8 years at a top 100 restaurant in the city. While there is much to check out for a couple of day visit, cutting edge only lasts for a month or so.