food before wine? never fine.

[tommy]

last night our food (apps) arrived before our bottle of wine was opened, even though i had asked twice.

acceptable?  inexcusable?

[glenn]

who was the perpetrator of this misdeed?

[TCD]

last night our food (apps) arrived before our bottle of wine was opened, even though i had asked twice.

acceptable?  inexcusable?

You say "our bottle of wine was opened" rather than "the bottle of wine was brought to the table (and opened)".  It seems that this is a BYOB situation.  If that is the case, it is shocking that the staff would not uncork the bottle soon after your arrival much less not until after the first course was brought to the table.  Knowing that you often bring your own corkscrew perhaps it wasn't a BYOB situation.  Even in that case, unless you failed to order the wine when the food order was placed, it is still inexcusable for the food to arrive prior to the wine.  Although this does happen even at the "best" of places, for example, three times to me at Tabla.

[tommy]

i am guilty, once again, of having thoughts in my head and assuming they'd magically come out in my post even if i didn't type them...yes, it was BYO.  to be fair, we did have a bottle of champagne to start with.  getting that opened turned out to be a chore as well, as we sat for 10 minutes before anyone even approached the table.  we finally ordered, and asked for the bottle of wine to be opened.  the apps then arrived before the bottle was tended to.  i had a stern word (something along the lines of "this needs to be opened *immediately*") with a manager type as he walked by, and he quickly took care of the situation.   but obviously not fast enough to take the bad taste out of my mouth.

[Rosie]

Where were you?

Always bring a cork screw. Many restaurants don't open the wine fast enough for me!  :D

[tommy]

la tour in ridgewood.  second and last time there.  i would have opened it myself, but we didn't have glasses either, so that would have been pointless.  although, i wasn't too far from drinking straight from the bottle.  at those prices, they really should get their act together.

[Rosie]

Ouch! Sorry to hear that about Latour. In any case although 99.9 % of BYO restaurants open your bottle they really are not suppose to by law. They aren't suppose to pour the wine either.

[Wilfrid]

It's a disgrace, tommy.  I send appetizers back if they get to the table before the wine is served.  I have even had appetizers arrive before I have ordered wine.  I don't know why it should be, but it can be hard to get a wine list and to get your ordered placed even in pretty good restaurants.

[tommy]

I don't know why it should be, but it can be hard to get a wine list and to get your ordered placed even in pretty good restaurants.

agreed.  even at places in NYC that you'd expect decent service from this is the case.  i am *very* careful to not order any food until the wine has been presented, opened, and poured.  sending back food is problematic unfortunately.

this brings up different issue:  have you ever ordered apps first and purposely waited before ordering entrees?  i find myself doing this often as i'm much better at pacing my meal than the kitchen is.

[Wilfrid]

Funnily enough, I adopted that practice as a firm policy on my only visit to Turkey.  One of the delights of local cuisine there are the little dishes of mezzes - hors d'oeuvres which you can order by the dozen.  They also have great fresh fish straight out of the Bosphorus.  My experience was that, if I ordered my whole meal at once, the fish would be presented about five minutes after the mezzes arrived.  I started refusing to order an entree until I'd done with the mezzes, which sent waiters into paroxyms of anxiety that I wouldn't spend enough money.  But I persevered.

In New York, frankly, I find the pacing problem to be the opposite.  I am getting tired of the hour's lapse between arriving at a restauarnt and putting the first forkful into my mouth.  Do you have to slow 'em down in New Jersey?

[tommy]

i don't think i would generalize and say that jersey is faster or slower.  and i also wouldn't generalize that all new york restaurants are too slow. (i know you weren't serious)

i've obviously found a mix of both in both states.  but generally, i do find that the food comes out too fast in NYC, which may be a function of the types of places i often find myself frequenting (mid-range stuff).  sure, jean georges and daniel will keep you sitting, but more often than not, your zoes, soho steaks, ethnic type places, miracle grills, ruby foos, etc, are prone to having really crappy timing, erring towards the quick end of the spectrum.

[TCD]

I don't know why it should be, but it can be hard to get a wine list and to get your order placed even in pretty good restaurants.

I've adopted the practice of not placing the food order until I'm ready to order the wine.  Hoping that the captain will return in a prompt fashion to take the wine order or will hold off on placing the food order with the kitchen is too great a risk at many places.  (tommy's approach eliminates the risk of getting the wine after the apps of course, but at most fine dining establishments the risk isn't all that great.) In the case where we will be having different wines with the appetizers and the entree I will often select the second wine at the same time as the first.  Sometimes I will order the second wine at the same time as the first asking that it be brought after the appetizers are cleared.

[John Whiting]

Sometimes I will order the second wine at the same time as the first asking that it be brought after the appetizers are cleared.

Occasionally I have had the wine waiter considerately (not pushily) ask if I want to order the second bottle early so that it will have time to breathe.

[tommy]

Occasionally I have had the wine waiter considerately (not pushily) ask if I want to order the second bottle early so that it will have time to breathe.

obviously the wrong place for me to ask, but do you believe that a bottle benefits from "breathing" if it remains in the bottle uncorked for 30 minutes?

[TCD]

do you believe that a bottle benefits from "breathing" if it remains in the bottle uncorked for 30 minutes?

yes, but not much.

[John Whiting]

Quote (tommy @ April 02 2002,17:26)

do you believe that a bottle benefits from "breathing" if it remains in the bottle uncorked for 30 minutes?

I ask to taste it and if I think it needs time to open, I ask that a glass (or glasses) be poured. It'll be ready quicker there, with more air exposure. This is one circumstance where I don't mind my glass being continually topped up.

With some wines, I suppose, one should phone in one's order several hours in advance.

:)