Proposal for New Food Court for Oakland

[marie-louise]

Oh boy oh boy-how cool would this be?

[SWoodyWhite]

Quoting: "The 185,000 square foot California Harvest Hall -- rivaling the size of Seattle's famed Pike Place Market -- is the centerpiece of a proposed $300 million expansion of Jack London Square that also includes a 250-room, four- star hotel; a seven-theater movie house; office space and 1,500 parking spaces."

Why does that sound like too few parking spaces?

[herbacidal]

Quoting: "The 185,000 square foot California Harvest Hall -- rivaling the size of Seattle's famed Pike Place Market -- is the centerpiece of a proposed $300 million expansion of Jack London Square that also includes a 250-room, four- star hotel; a seven-theater movie house; office space and 1,500 parking spaces."

Why does that sound like too few parking spaces?

probably b/c it would be.

how few too many would need to be determined when the office space square footage and sizes of all the other planned uses are determined.

i'm no urban planner (even though I might pretend to be b/c I like the field) but thus far, I'd say it's off by at least 300 spaces, even assuming it's near a transit stop or 2.

[Schneier]

Cool.

Bruce

[marie-louise]

Why does that sound like too few parking spaces?

There are a few big parking garages around that never seem to be filled.

[Hest88]

The economy's so bad that I wouldn't mind seeing anything that would bring more people to Oakland. Plus, the thought of a world-class food court (asssuming that's what it actually turns out to be as opposed to another place full of chain shops) is enticing. However, I must admit that I'll really miss the old-fashioned working warehouse feel of the area.

[herbacidal]

Why does that sound like too few parking spaces?

There are a few big parking garages around that never seem to be filled.

really? well, then maybe my statement is wrong.

are the garages public and free/minimal charge?

how close is "around"? a shuttle bus wouldn't be necessary, would it?

[marie-louise]

There is a garage under Barnes and Nobles and one over Yoshi's. If this is going where I think it is (where that old Jack London Village shopping center was), they should be just a couple blocks away. These are both less than a block from the current Sunday Farmer's Market. Sometimes the parking is free, sometimes they charge you a buck if you don't get a validation. I've never quite figured it thir policy, I think it depends on parking lot attendant mood.

I just love the idea of a waterfront market on each side of the bay. And the ferry dock is right there for each of them. Maybe in the not too distant future we could shop at one, then hop on a ferry to the other side to pick up something else?

Hest 88-I like driving by those wharehouses, too. Maybe they will be able to incorporate the feel of a working produce market into the retail area.

I really hope this happens.

[Gary Soup]

Quoting: "The 185,000 square foot California Harvest Hall -- rivaling the size of Seattle's famed Pike Place Market -- is the centerpiece of a proposed $300 million expansion of Jack London Square that also includes a 250-room, four- star hotel; a seven-theater movie house; office space and 1,500 parking spaces."

Why does that sound like too few parking spaces?

probably b/c it would be.

how few too many would need to be determined when the office space square footage and sizes of all the other planned uses are determined.

i'm no urban planner (even though I might pretend to be b/c I like the field) but thus far, I'd say it's off by at least 300 spaces, even assuming it's near a transit stop or 2.

I'd be curious to know how you came up with your numbers. 1,500 parking spaces sounds like overkill to me, except that it's probably meant to provide surplus parking for other nearby land uses.

Office parking peak demand is mid-day, while theater and hotel peak parking demand occurs during the evening. 1,500 spaces is way more than the theater and hotel will need. The magnitude of the office development is not specified, but given height and bulk limits in JLS (not to mention urban design considerations), it is highly unlikely to require 1,500 spaces. As for the Market Hall itself, it's likely to serve mostly workers in the area and others who visit JLS for other purposes. Remember, the SF Ferry Building Market Hall development provided ZILCH parking spaces.

I'm also not a urban planner myself, but I am a transport planner, and part of my daily grind includes parking studies.

As an aside, I have to wonder what the developers' concept is for the Market Hall, since they solicited Cost Plus and Dreyers for starters. Not exactly Sur la Table and Ciao Bella, but maybe they have something less foofy than the Ferry Building in mind. But what, exactly?

[herbacidal]

Quoting: "The 185,000 square foot California Harvest Hall -- rivaling the size of Seattle's famed Pike Place Market -- is the centerpiece of a proposed $300 million expansion of Jack London Square that also includes a 250-room, four- star hotel; a seven-theater movie house; office space and 1,500 parking spaces."

Why does that sound like too few parking spaces?

probably b/c it would be.

how few too many would need to be determined when the office space square footage and sizes of all the other planned uses are determined.

i'm no urban planner (even though I might pretend to be b/c I like the field) but thus far, I'd say it's off by at least 300 spaces, even assuming it's near a transit stop or 2.

I'd be curious to know how you came up with your numbers. 1,500 parking spaces sounds like overkill to me, except that it's probably meant to provide surplus parking for other nearby land uses.

Office parking peak demand is mid-day, while theater and hotel peak parking demand occurs during the evening. 1,500 spaces is way more than the theater and hotel will need. The magnitude of the office development is not specified, but given height and bulk limits in JLS (not to mention urban design considerations), it is highly unlikely to require 1,500 spaces. As for the Market Hall itself, it's likely to serve mostly workers in the area and others who visit JLS for other purposes. Remember, the SF Ferry Building Market Hall development provided ZILCH parking spaces.

I'm also not a urban planner myself, but I am a transport planner, and part of my daily grind includes parking studies.

As an aside, I have to wonder what the developers' concept is for the Market Hall, since they solicited Cost Plus and Dreyers for starters. Not exactly Sur la Table and Ciao Bella, but maybe they have something less foofy than the Ferry Building in mind. But what, exactly?

the key part there is the height and other restrictions. I wasn't aware there are any.

I'm not a transport planner, so that's still a leg up you have on me.

[SWoodyWhite]

Again quoting from the article: Plans for the Harvest Hall, to be located between Franklin and Harrison streets and the Embarcadero and Water Street, include a daily market of produce, meats, seafood, cheeses and baked goods; a professional cooking school; waterfront restaurants and smaller cafes to be run by local entrepreneurs; food-themed retail; and a chefs' hall of fame, which would induct chefs annually.

This is part of why I was asking about parking. And remember, I'm a SoCal boy, so I'm used to an environment that is pro-car and anti-walking. My point of view has a bias that probably doesn't match conditions in the Bay area.

The school won't affect parking that much. The restaurants and cafes, however, will logically draw people in from nearby offices for lunch, and if they're walking more than a block or two my own experience has shown that people will prefer to drive and repark. This could also prove to be an objection, from the customer's point of view, to using already established parking, particularly at night if the parking and walkways to and from the Hall aren't well lighted. Distance and perceived safety are major factors to be considered.

[badthings]

As an aside, I have to wonder what the developers' concept is for the Market Hall, since they solicited Cost Plus and Dreyers for starters.  Not exactly Sur la Table and Ciao Bella, but maybe they have something less foofy than the Ferry Building in mind.  But what, exactly?

Yeah, I have my doubts.

It would be nice to have any reason to go to Jack London though.

Along with a new ballpark for the A's at the Laney parking lot.

(owner-financed, of course. Maybe they could make Al Davis pay for it.)

edit:typo

Edited October 6, 2003 by badthings (log)

[marie-louise]

As I was nearing the Jack London farmer's market yesterday, I passed by a building "Cost Plus International Headquarters." So it makes sense that they'd be corporate sponsors. Dreyer's is also headquartered in Oakland, though they were bought by some big conglomerate a few years back. Not sure about where Safeway is based, but maybe that's their reason for being there.

I agree, a food court with a Safeway, a Cost Plus, and some Dreyer's ice cream does not appeal much! Throw in some cookies and pretzels and you could be in any mall USA. Hopefully they'll quietly invest as a community service [AKA tax break] to Oakland.