Rick Bayless and Burger King - Part 1

[fresco]

1220mg is a little less than half a teaspoon.  Which is a lot for one sandwich.

how much sodium is in a sandwich, say, like this one.

Probably about 1000 mgs, and that's just the bread.

This whole thing is much easier to take with a gram...er, a grain of salt.

[MatthewB]

Rick Bayless doesn't disagree with Rick Bayless.

Matthew, you've already been offered the opportunity to refute the claim of hypocrisy and you've refused. Now you're back denying it even though you can't or won't answer the arguments. Make a choice: either explain why Bayless's ideological history is compatible with his current sellout views, or stop embarrassing yourself by repeating a point you refuse to support.

Right back at you.

I haven't seen anyone--including you--actually *establish* the claim of hypocrisy.

Lots of accusations. Lots of grand claims. Lots of rhetoric.

But no establishment. None.

Not sure who exactly should be embarassed, but I'll not decide that for others.

[tommy]

this is kinda like debating religion and abortion and stuff. lots of fun.

[Fat Guy]

I haven't seen anyone--including you--actually *establish* the claim of hypocrisy.

Sorry Matthew but you can't run away from what's in black and white. Bayless's contradictory statments have been extensively documented on this thread, are here for all to see, and do not bear repeating. Yet you continue to deny what's in plain sight. Last time I confronted you, this is what happened:

Then perhaps, Matthew, you will enlighten us as to how the Chefs Collaborative and Frontera Farmer Foundation missions and proclamations are ethically compatible with a Burger King endorsement. Is it because putting a chicken sandwich on the menu is "a step in the right direction"? That argument has, I think, been dispensed with already. Is it because Burger King, unbeknownst to us, is actually an enlightened and vigorous proponent of local, seasonal, artisanal, sustainable, environmentally sound ingredients and agriculture? Or is it for some reason that has thus far eluded us?

FG, thanks but this bait isn't very appealing.

I'll pass.

Now we're right back to square one: you denying everybody's claims without making or defending any of your own. That's not what a debate is about, Matthew. How about having enough respect for your fellow eGulleters to actually make an argument, or at least having enough respect for us to stay out of an argument when you say you will?

[hannnah]

1220mg is a little less than half a teaspoon.  Which is a lot for one sandwich.

how much sodium is in a sandwich, say, like this one.

Ok. After a look around, it seems 1220mg isn't so much when you're looking at sandwiches with cured meats. For comparison purposes, a 6-inch Subway BMT (salami, pepperoni, and ham) has 1900mg of sodium.

There's no cured meat on the Burger King chicken sandwich, though. And I seriously doubt they're brining the filets.

[MatthewB]

I haven't seen anyone--including you--actually *establish* the claim of hypocrisy.

Sorry Matthew but you can't run away from what's in black and white. Bayless's contradictory statments have been extensively documented on this thread, are here for all to see, and do not bear repeating. Yet you continue to deny what's in plain sight. Last time I confronted you, this is what happened:

Then perhaps, Matthew, you will enlighten us as to how the Chefs Collaborative and Frontera Farmer Foundation missions and proclamations are ethically compatible with a Burger King endorsement. Is it because putting a chicken sandwich on the menu is "a step in the right direction"? That argument has, I think, been dispensed with already. Is it because Burger King, unbeknownst to us, is actually an enlightened and vigorous proponent of local, seasonal, artisanal, sustainable, environmentally sound ingredients and agriculture? Or is it for some reason that has thus far eluded us?

FG, thanks but this bait isn't very appealing.

I'll pass.

Now we're right back to square one: you denying everybody's claims without making or defending any of your own. That's not what a debate is about, Matthew. How about having enough respect for your fellow eGulleters to actually make an argument, or at least having enough respect for us to stay out of an argument when you say you will?

Sorry, FG, that's not the way debate works.

Once someone can legitimately establish the claim of hyprocrisy, then I'll attempt to refute it.

But there's nothing to refute. The Emperor has no clothes. (Though you hold an opinion to the contrary.)

I'm more interested in debate founded in generally accepted philosophical principles of argumentation rather than debate that's decided via rhetoric.

And, I'm not really sure about your claim that I'm being disrespectful. But I respect your right to hold your opinions.

[Fat Guy]

Matthew, you're free to continue to humiliate yourself in this manner, but your patent refusal to say anything makes your position rather ridiculous. The arguments have been made. You won't answer them. No matter how they're phrased, throughout something like 300 posts, you refuse to admit they exist. Fair enough. If you won't live up to your own commitment to stay off the thread on account of your failure to have anything to say, I suppose the best move is for the rest of us -- and I believe it's telling that every single other person on this thread has been willing to engage the arguments of those who disagree with him or her -- to ignore you.

[slkinsey]

Here is a nice definition of hypocrisy:

Hypocrisy is the act of pretending to have beliefs, virtues and feelings that one does not truly possess. The word derives from the late Latin hypocrisis and Greek hupokrisis both meaning play-acting or pretence.

A classic example of a hypocritical act is to denounce another for carrying out some action whilst carrying out the same action oneself.

Has not the Chef's Collective been sharply critical of the business practices and culinary philosphies of fast food chains such as Burger King? Bayless' act of putting his name, image and imprimatur behind the marketing efforts of a company whose business practices run entirely counter to the principles and philosophies that are espoused and promoted by an organization of which he is a founding member, and which principles and philosophies he himself has taken a leading position in publicising, would seem to fit the highlighted section above fairly closely. Nothing that we have read or seen thus far on this subject would seem to support any other conclusion.

[tommy]

Ok. After a look around, it seems 1220mg isn't so much when you're looking at sandwiches with cured meats.  For comparison purposes, a 6-inch Subway BMT (salami, pepperoni, and ham) has 1900mg of sodium. 

actually, for comparison purposes, Subway's 6 inch roasted chicken breast sandwich has 1000 mg sodium.

but i don't think the CC wants to hear about fast food either way.

[hjshorter]

yeah, not to mention kids just love a baguette, some figs, and a bit of salami for lunch. 

Actually, my kids would eat it, but it means a special trip because our regular grocery store doesn't carry figs. And they don't have a drive-through.

[Fat Guy]

but i don't think the CC wants to hear about fast food either way.

Hey, Tommy, I'll be the first to say the CC people are bunch of nutty communists. But you know what? Rick Bayless is one of them. So while I think it's entirely fine for you to take as many swipes as you like at the CC, and while I'll join you, this thread isn't about your or my Burger King endorsement. It's about comrade Bayless's endorsement of an evil captialist sandwich.

[hjshorter]

There's no cured meat on the Burger King chicken sandwich, though.  And I seriously doubt they're brining the filets.

I thought most commercial frozen chicken breasts were brined?

[tommy]

but i don't think the CC wants to hear about fast food either way.

Hey, Tommy, I'll be the first to say the CC people are bunch of nutty communists. But you know what? Rick Bayless is one of them. So while I think it's entirely fine for you to take as many swipes as you like at the CC, and while I'll join you, this thread isn't about your or my Burger King endorsement. It's about comrade Bayless's endorsement of an evil captialist sandwich.

i'm not taking swipes at the CC. what i'm saying is that i don't think 1220 mg of sodium is all that much, compared to other sandwiches. threads like this tend to become about more than one thing, and i think one of the discussions going on is sodium-related. personally, i'm salty enough.

pret a manger black pepper chicken sandwich on bloomer bread: 1247 mg

[MatthewB]

Matthew, you're free to continue to humiliate yourself in this manner, but your patent refusal to say anything makes your position rather ridiculous. The arguments have been made. You won't answer them. No matter how they're phrased, throughout something like 300 posts, you refuse to admit they exist. Fair enough. If you won't live up to your own commitment to stay off the thread on account of your failure to have anything to say, I suppose the best move is for the rest of us -- and I believe it's telling that every single other person on this thread has been willing to engage the arguments of those who disagree with him or her -- to ignore you.

FG, it's your site, your ball, & your rules.

And I will abide by your rules. (Even when I disagree.)

[hollywood]

Paradoxically, the worse the sandwich is [and no, I haven't tasted one] the less hypocritical the endorsement of it is. Same with Mizrahi and Target, Halston and Penny's, any celebrity and just about any politician you can think of (hmmm...what's that do for Arnold on Arnold?). If it's really bad everybody knows it's a paid endorsement. It's more insidious if the product actually has some merit but to a thinking person is beneath the standards of the endorser. Somewhat off topic: didn't the FTC crack down for a while on celebrity endorsers of faulty products and services? Wonder if this would qualify for their scrutiny? Didn't Cybill Shepherd do ads for the meat producers while [at the time] acting like a vegan?

[Fat Guy]

what i'm saying is that i don't think 1220 mg of sodium is all that much, compared to other sandwiches.

I agree.

[hjshorter]

and I believe it's telling that every single other person on this thread has been willing to engage the arguments of those who disagree with him or her -- to ignore you.

I've been waiting for someone to address the points that Matthew has been making. I don't think the claim of hypocrisy has been substantiated and no one is willing to discuss relativism.

I have a big problem with the CC and their dogmatic approach. It seems to me to be about fresh, organic food for some, and those that can only afford a BK sandwich are screwed until they make organic food affordable, not to mention available at every grocery store and fast food joint on the planet. Screw providing any alternative to Whoppers, because there is no such thing as progress in incremental steps, is there?

[hannnah]

There's no cured meat on the Burger King chicken sandwich, though.  And I seriously doubt they're brining the filets.

I thought most commercial frozen chicken breasts were brined?

I think they're sprayed down with a solution that's got salt in it as part of the freezing process, but I meant the soak-in-seasoned-solution-overnight kind of brining. Should have been more specific.

[slkinsey]

...Mizrahi and Target, Halston and Penny's...

One of the big differences between Bayless and people like Mizrahi and Halston, is that I don't think Mizrahi went around spouting off philosophies about clothing and the clothing business that are completely inimical to the kinds of clothing one finds at Target and Target's business practices.

A better example might be someone who strongly promotes American-made automobiles and efficient, safe automobile design signing up to endorse a Japanese SUV that is slightly less prone to rollovers and gets marginally better mileage because it is a "step in the right direction."

[FoodMan]

It's like a vegetarian endorsing KFC

It's like Roxanne eating a grilled cheese sandwich at Denny's

It's all about the money, RB is doing a commercial for cash. Why is it hypocritical?? Because, from what I read in his books and watched him say on TV, he would never have voluntarily walked into a BK joint if there was no money involved. I am not trying to demonize him or make him seem like the culinary equivelant of the antichrist, what he did is a sell-out pure and simple.

FM

[fresco]

If Bayless does not believe what he said in his endorsement, and if his endorsement flies completely in the face of everything he stands for, then of course he's a hypocrite.

But I am willing to believe that he believes what he said and that he truly does see this new sandwich as a step in the right direction.

I also refuse to believe that BK was able to pay Bayless enough money for him to turn his back on his long held beliefs--that is, Bayless at least is convinced that his endorsement is not a violation of what he says he stands for, although many others may not be.

[fifi]

Quote from RB's reply:

I am genuinely impressed with the honesty of flavor and texture in the

salsa, the diversity of ingredients (when’s the last time you saw poblano

chiles on a fast-food menu?), the freshness of the roasted peppers and

onions (they are delivered fresh to each restaurant—not frozen), and the

crispy integrity of the bread’s crust. I found the flame-grilled flavor

satisfying and the portion-size on target—especially for every-day eating.

On target, too, are the 350 calories and 5 grams of fat in each sandwich.

Why am I having a hard time believing that RB ate the same sandwich that is being sold on a daily basis. Why am I having a hard time believing that roasted peppers and onions are being delivered fresh? Possibly there is a bag of refrigerated mush that was once peppers and onions? How can that be? The delivery trucks have separate refrigerated sections? Why would a BK risk refrigerated food? "Crispy integrity of the bread's crust"????? NOT THE ONE I GOT!

I am afraid that RB's reply only caused me to further question the whole situation.

[ronnie_suburban]

The delivery trucks have separate refrigerated sections?

Not sure about the BK trucks but I know of at least a few carriers that offer separate controlled temperature zones on the same vehicle.

=R=

[jilly rizzo]

Living on Reds

Vitamin C

and Cocaine

all a friend can say

is it's a fucking shame.

[hjshorter]

Won't the quality of any item depend on the restaurant - Who the suppliers are, how they handle the food and how they prepare it? Yes, consistency is always cited as a hallmark of fast food, but I find the quality varies to a surprising degree from place to place.

I'm willing to believe that the sandwich Bayless ate was substantially better than what you're going to get at the drive thru. It was the ideal Sante Fe chicken sandwich.