Trip to Italy 101

[tommy]

hi all.

i'm planning a last minute trip to italy. i know there's probably a lot of info on this board, but since i don't follow it, i'll have to go digging. in the meantime, i'd appreciate any comments regarding a first timer's visit to italy. we're planning on venice, florence/tuscany, and rome. we're looking at about 2 weeks i'd say.

thoughts on lodging, culture, travel, food, winery tours, sites, etc would be greatly appreciated. as you might imagine, we're not too interested in museums, but very interested in food and wine. although some culture would be nice too.

[Varmint]

Tommy is about to go to Italy, representing our country. And I thought our international relations were already problematic.

Just scour through the previous threads and don't be so darned lazy.

Regardless, I'm envious. Make sure you come through NC on your way to Italy. It's on the way, isn't it?

[Craig Camp]

Sorry tommy as of Sept. 1st the Italian forum became available only on a premium basis. We accept all major credit cards and cash under the table.

I'll check for your payment in the morning, but for now it is bedtime and the Italian office of eGullet is closed for the evening.

[tommy]

Just scour through the previous threads and don't be so darned lazy.

i think you'll find that this lazy american is more than happy to help people on the NY forum.

[slkinsey]

Some people I know run the Podere Toricella agriturismo right outside of Firenze. Cool place in the country, an easy drive away from Firenze. They make wine and olive oil, among other things. Should be interesting things happening around the time you'll be there. Nice place to stay and probably cheaper than staying in the city. I know several interesting restaurants and day trip-type places in and around Firenze I can tip you to when your plans firm up.

I know you're mostly interested in food-type places, but given that you have an interest in music and you'll be traveling around the birthplace of opera... you might think of taking in a performance in Firenze, Roma (also see here) and Venezia (also see here). Some pretty interesting possibilities and some very beautiful buildings.

[menton1]

You may be a bit ambitious for 2 weeks. And for Tuscany you would need a car. If you don't like museums, be advised that Venice IS a museum. Good restaurants in Venice require a lot of research, there about 15% good ones and 85% not so good ones. The food in Florence and Rome is very very good, though.

The Italy board should have a wealth of info for you, much more than we could say on one thread.

Also, beware of the star rating of hotels in Italy-- they mean very little-- sort of like a restaurant rating in the Bergen Record!!

[tommy]

The Italy board should have a wealth of info for you, much more than we could say on one thread. 

i agree. but perhaps a little advice on what a tourist should look out for, rather than restaurant specifics and such.

tips, such as yours, on where i should/shouldn't have a car would be great. as i say, i've never been, and have a bit of "cramming" to do as far as getting aquainted with the language and culture.

Edited September 23, 2003 by tommy (log)

[slkinsey]

Just out of curiosity, are you locked into doing Roma, Firenze/Toscana and Venezia in two weeks? Personally, I think you'd have a much better chance of soaking up Italian culture if you did something like 10 days in Firenze/Toscana with a car (in which case, as previously mentioned, I suggest you stay at an agriturismo or similar place outside the city) and then the last 4 days in Roma. With a car, you can easily day-trip around Toscana and also get to know the city well by using the Firenze area as your home base.

Three cities in two weeks makes for a fairly hectic schedule and doesn't allow you much time to get a feel for the place.

[Varmint]

I totally agree with Sam. I always prefer establishing a home "base" where I can totally unpack and relax. Take a few day trips, learn what Tuscany is all about. If you need to, visit one other city before you head back home.

The only thing is that you may want to stay in the city rather than the countryside, only so you aren't forced to drive for dinner. You do plan on drinking a little wine over there, don't you????

[tommy]

we're planning on flying into Milan (no flights were available to venice), and making our way over to venice rather quickly. we're flying out of Rome 2 weeks later. the rest is up in the air.

it has been suggested to drive from venice to florence, and then train it to rome. while i'm sure 2 weeks isn't ideal (hell, it's hardly enough for any vacation), i'm thinking we can get a reasonable amount in without rushing around or stretching ourselves.

[tanabutler]

Tommy, I have a ton of stuff I'll e-mail you, okay? Links and suggestions and just a buttload of stuff. Later today when I come up for air. I'm slammed with work right now.

[JosephB]

One thing is for sure, the car is a liability in all three cities you plan to visit. It costs a fortune to rent a car in Italy, especially if like me you can't drive a manual transmission. The best deal I got on an automatic (compact) was $100 per day. If you are rushing to Venice, you should take the train. When you're ready to leave Venice (2 nights), I would take the train again to Florence. I wouldn't drive because your goal is to explore Tuscany, which essentially begins in Florence and extends southward. I couldn't let you drive from Venice to Florence and skip Bologna on the way. But that's what you would be doing if you drive! After you've explored Florence (3 nights), then you grab a car and visit the wonderful towns of Tuscany. I would suggest 2 or 3 nights somewhere like Greve, which will give you a base to explore Chianti and visit Siena (beautiful place). From there I would spend 1 or 2 nights in or near Pienza (charming town), which is close to Montalcino and Montepulciano. Driving to Rome would be possible, but I would lose the car in Siena or Perugia (Umbria), and take the train. By my calculations you should have 3 or 4 days left for Rome. Not a bad first trip. I'll get back to later with some specifics on restaurants, etc.

Edited September 24, 2003 by JosephB (log)

[docsconz]

Tommy,

I agree with Joseph - no car in the cities (the roads are pure anarchy), but do have a car in the Tuscan countryside. We rented a villa just outside of Siena for two weeks. It was wonderful and even economical compared to a hotel. It was fun to be able to cook the local produce and meats and also to be able to explore various restaurants around Tuscany.

If you want to visit wineries and I do recommend doing so, it is best to make appointments ahead of time.Stephen Hobley's A Traveller's wine Guide to Italy and Carla Capalbo's The food Lover's Companion to Tuscany are good sources for winery contacts as well as other food products such as the pecorino cheese from Cugusi between pienza and Montepulciano. In fact go to Montepulciano, have lunch at La Grotta across from the lovely San Biagio church and try the wines at Avignonesi, especially the vin santo, which may be the finest dessert wine I've ever had.

I'll be in Italy with my son in early November. I can't wait.

By the way - Do you speak Italian? Unless you speak it very well, I suggest using English for most business transactions.

[tommy]

i have no plans on driving in any city. just figured to get from venice to florence it would be a nice drive.

and i certainly don't plan on learning italian. however, i generally try to get the "please", "thank you", "where is", etc down. that's the least one should do when traveling abroad, imo.

thanks for the responses. i've already reconsidered some items.

Edited September 24, 2003 by tommy (log)

[elyse]

Are you looking for food, or cool stuff?

[Craig Camp]

OK the Italian office is awake and tommy we thank you for your prompt payment. The cash was most appreciated - you should see the income taxes here!

There is a reason that it seems everyone's first trip to Italy includes Venezia, Firenze and Roma. They are spectacular cities and will give you great memories. The car question can only be answered by you. I have never found it difficult to drive in Italy (in fact I love it), but it is a pain to find your way around major cities while driving. The streets are poorly marked and parking is a sport for only the most aggressive. The trains are easy to use and an excellent way to travel between the major cities. In the cities taxis are easy to find and use. You also have to decide if you want an overview for your first trip or to steep yourself in the culture by staying longer in one spot. For a first trip I suggest an overview. I am certain you will want to return and then you can get your villa in the country. I am also guessing you do not speak Italian as this is your first trip, but this will not be a problem in the major cities. You are arriving at a great time as everything is still open the tourist rush is over. Be prepared for a little rain.

You will be flying into Milano (that's perfect into Milano and out of Roma) so I would suggest starting there to shake out the jet lag. You will arrive in the morning so let your hotel know so you can possibly get into your room. By the way a taxi from Malpensa to the center of Milano costs around $80.00. Take the shuttle bus for Euro 11 (the ticket office is right across from where you exit customs) to the central train station and take a taxi from there to your hotel. After a short nap you can take a stroll around the Duomo (cathedral - my favorite in Italy), Galleria and the Castello. Have a snack in a cafe in the Galleria - fun and restful people watching. Don't forget to take a spin on the bull's balls (read your guide). In the evening I would suggest Boccondivino for dinner (see Boot Camp in a few days). For some other spots look here.

Next morning you can take the train to Venezia. The train is the way to go to Venezia (that's how we go) as it takes you right into the city. Plan to spend at least two days here as it is a special place. See the pinned thread on Venezia to see where to eat. If you want to splurge stay at the Danielle - a special hotel. Plan on walking and walking and don't be afraid to wander. Then take the train to Firenze.

Toscana is the main place you will miss having a car because there are many places you should visit. Wineries (you need appts.) Siena, Lucca, Pisa and Montalcino. You'll want to spend 5 or 6 days here. Several in Firenze with several day trips to Lucca, Pisa and Siena. You can visit Pisa and Siena by train from Firenze. When in Toscana you will want to eat meat here! Then the train to Roma.

Roma takes a minimum of five days to touch it at all and a lifetime to really see it. There is so much here. Make sure you take plenty of time with the Vatican and a bus trip to the Catacombes is worth it. There is nothing wrong with taking a good guided tour or two.

For eating:look here,

here,

and here.

Don't forget to read this tip. Also these comments on restaurant guides will be helpful. There is some good general information here.

So that gives you a day in Milano, 2 days in Venezia, 5 or 6 days in Toscana and 5 or 6 days in Roma. Nice trip. Be sure to buy good guides to each city before you go and research what you want to see. Don't overplan leave a lot of time for strolling, eating gelato and sipping aperitivi at sidewalk cafes. You will be amazed by how many people speak passable English in these cities so you will have no trouble getting by. At all of your hotels they will speak perfect English (and German, Spanish and French) and they will be very helpful in giving you advice - except on restaurants because they will send you to safe places that tourists like. When it comes to restaurants avoid anything with a menu in 3 or more languages or with pictures of the food on signs outside.

When it comes to eating is is normal to order antipasti, a primo piatto (pasta or rice) and a secondo piatto (meat or fish) at both lunch and dinner, but it is also very acceptable to order only two of the above if all three is too much. Anyone who tells you portions are small in Italy is telling you a lie.

So that should give you a good start tommy...tommy...tommy...hey wake up!

[Varmint]

Good gosh, Craig. What advice. By the way, what's your thoughts on the bond market? Oh, and do you think the Cubs will hold off and make the playoffs?

Seriously, I think tommy will be owing you a big one after that advice. Now I need to figure out how to get to Italy!

[enthusiast]

can't compete on the typically amazing knowledge already displayed here but may i add a couple of things:

in Venice, try adjusting your clocks and getting up at dawn - you can wander round this most extraordinary place in relative peace and if, say, you want to look orund the Doge's palace you can arrive there just before it opens and get a chance to see it sans crowds. go to bed early, the place dies at 8-9pm if not earlier

Siena is the most perfect place and utterly unmissable.

don't know where you are on culture but you can get a bit sick of yet another madonna con bambino. in San Gimignano, slightly touristy but great place near Siena there are two must sees: the fresco on the left hand wall of the main cathedral depicting the last judgement - very refreshingly horrible, though not meant to put you off your food!

and, at the extremity of the town, a most serene monastery which the tourists tend not to get to with some beautiful frescoes and a splendid cloister, St Agostino - perfect for a quick nap after a good lunch and before a serious dinner.

[tommy]

having never read the italy boards, i'm really astonished at the wealth of information on them, and coming from their denizens. this is great stuff guys. thanks a million!

elyse, i'm looking for food and ideas and tips. sort of a "dummies guide to a first visit to italy".

Edited September 24, 2003 by tommy (log)

[slkinsey]

By the time all the Italophiles on these boards finish telling you about their favorite places and making sure you know to "ask for my good friend so-and-so" you should be in for one hell of an awesome trip!

[Varmint]

By the time all the Italophiles on these boards finish telling you about their favorite places and making sure you know to "ask for my good friend so-and-so" you should be in for one hell of an awesome trip!

or be more confused than when he started.

[tommy]

There is a reason that it seems everyone's first trip to Italy includes Venezia, Firenze and Roma.

but craig, we're gonig to venice, florence, and rome.

I am also guessing you do not speak Italian

not very much.

[Jim Dixon]

tommy,

I'll toss my recommendations for Venice into the pot...

We rode back to Florence on the train with an woman from Rome who worked for a convention organizer. She was fuming about how badly some of the optometrists (I think that was the group) were treated, and most of them were Italians. She was speaking, of course, about the restaurants.

Venice depends on tourist spending, but seems to hate it, although with some good reasons. The palce is overrun with daytrippers who strain the decrepit infrastructure but don't spend very much money. To maximize the dollar per visitor, more than a few eateries charge outrageous prices for mediocre food.

But there are great places to eat at reasonable prices. I've listed some we liked on my site, but you can find more by walking the neighborhoods away from San Marco. Judith would spot a crowd of teenagers or a few old men at the tables outside, and we knew we'd found a promising bacaro, a Venetian wine bar that serves tapas-like small plates called cicchetti.

I'll also recommend A Guest in Italy for finding a reasonably priced hotel in Venice. We've booked rooms at Albergo Doni, very close to San Marco, and also found an apartment for another stay through the site. One advantage to being near San Marco is the ease in finding your way back. Getting lost is a given, especially if you walk the outer neighborhoods, but there are usually signs pointing back to Piazza San Marco.

An early-morning walk through the Rialto fish market is amazing. I was badly jet-lagged one day and got up at 4 am. I drank espresso with the fish mongers at the only bar open, right next to the market, and watched ancient carts filled with baskets of wriggling shrimp being wheeled across the wet stones. The hardest thing is not being able to buy some of the fish to take home and cook.

Hvae a great trip.

Jim

[hollywood]

tommy,

What Craig said. Also, read this book. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books

It won't tell you anything useful but it is about Italy and it's a fun read.

As for the Vatican, after waiting in that interminable line (get there early), run do not walk past all the "stuff" and head straight for the Sistine Chapel. Forget the rest IMHO, there's much better stuff elsewhere if you want it. A trip to La Rosetta in Roma for a seafood feast is a requirement. You might want to look at Madonna's Like A Virgin video in prep for Venice. Be on the lookout for bootleg concert CDs anywhere--not cheap but generally good stuff. If kids with sheets of cardboard approach you, say near the Colosseum in Roma, cross the street or start flicking your bic at them (generally, they are pickpockets).

You don't strike me as a clothes guy but if you are some time roaming the stores (and some buying guide) in Milan might pay off. Women generally like deals they can get on Italian shoes. Prada has an outlet store near Tuscany or Florence, I forget. Ciao.

[tommy]

although i'm not totally against hustling about a bit, several people have suggested that 3 cities in 2 weeks is undoable. i think it's fine, but i'd like some more input.

would it be reasonable to fly into milan, head straight to venice and decompress there, and then after about 4 days just get on a train to rome to spend the remainder of the trip? also, would day trips outside of rome be worth it?

obviously we're still in the middle of getting together an itinerary.