Alice Waters in Saveur

[rgruby]

Hello,

I just read the Alice Waters in Italy article in Saveur and, well, I have a question. A concern even.

OK. the article revolves around AW and some Chez Panisse folks going over to Italy to cook for a slow food gathering. (I'm ok with that - in fact, sounds good to me!)

But then, the hosts are snobby - at first, the kitchen sucks (no grill!), and some of the ingredients are no good - if only they had their purveyors back home.

Now I'm starting to get a bit cranky. I thought the whole deal with the organic/local food movement was to show up, see what's fresh and cook with that. Apparently not, at least not in Italy. (Just as an aside, perhaps Ms. Waters now knows what the rest of us feel like when we - without a well-developed network of purveyors - try to buy organic. Up here in Toronto, the stuff often looks like it's been run over by a (non-organic) SUV or worse).

Apparently AW wanted to cook peaches (or pears, or some other fruit that starts with P - I'm too irritated to look it up) and when she got to Italy, despite the fact that they weren't very good, she went ahead anyways.

So, am I missing something, am I just a nutty old crank? Or is it a bit weird that someone espousing a cook organic, cook local philosophy would show up somewhere, and cook local produce that wasn't at its best just because she wanted peaches or pears or persimmons or ...?

OK, end of rant. Still intend to eat at CP should I ever find myself in Berkely. And, to be fair, I'm sure that organizing this thing and pulling it off half a world away was not easy. Perhaps they were told the peaches / pears/ persimmons were exquisite that time of year in Turin and they got there and they weren't. But still - Alice wants fruit that starts with P - and off they go, despite the fact that the fruit is not so good. Bugged me, given what I know of her philosophy.

Cheers,

Geoff Ruby

[Jinmyo]

When one's cooking is intimately tied to place and season, outside of that context there is often little one can show to anyone else. Except perhaps how to be willing to learn.

[Busboy]

So, am I missing something, am I just a nutty old crank?

Apparently its Alice who's become the old crank.

Probably still in a bad mood over the Jeremiah Towers book.

[Mark Sommelier]

I will repeat the old chestnut about Alice Waters:

She's not a cook, she's a shopper.

[bourdain]

Tower refutes even that.

[babyluck]

I've always thought her dim since I read her quote in Culinary Artistry when she was asked to summarize Japanese cooking. She said something like "all those little deep fried things, and those cute little dipping sauces." I've been waiting for her to redeem herself and I still am.

[Jinmyo]

Tower refutes even that.

Ha ha ha.

[GordonCooks]

I'm halfway through "California Dish" and it doesn't paint a positive picture of AW at all.

I’m indifferent about AW but am always suspicious of anyone with a sycophant-type following that espouses every recent culinary original as a “Chez Panisse” dish.

Edit: And Vice-Versa I should add.

Edited September 12, 2003 by GordonCooks (log)

[FoodMan]

I've never eaten at CP, and never met AW. I want to know, can she cook???? Is it worth going to CP on my next trip to CA?? Or is she just way overrated??

FM

[Rachel Perlow]

I can't exactly answer that question, but ever since I heard that they occasionally offer just a piece of fresh fruit for dessert, a plucot was what I recall (the excuse being this is a new type of fruit, enjoy it in its natural state), I've lossed my desire to go there. Jeez, do something with it, even if all you do is cut it up into slices and serve with some whipped cream. If another restaurant, say Gramercy Tavern or Judson Grill, want to show off a particular fruit they'd most likely serve it three ways, like in a tart, a sorbet or ice cream and maybe some raw as a garnish. A whole piece of fruit in a bowl?! I can get that at the (new age fancy) supermarket or gourmet store.

[bilrus]

It is probably overrated, but it is also worth going.

This is coming from someone who has only been to the upstairs cafe once, so take it for what it is worth. I enjoyed that meal enough that I am planning on going back in November to try the dinner downstairs.

[MatthewB]

Why the Alice-bashing?

And why the bashing from folks who have never eaten her food?

[FoodMan]

Why the Alice-bashing?

And why the bashing from folks who have never eaten her food?

Mathew-

I do not see any bashing from people who never ate her food...I was just asking a question.

FM

[MatthewB]

Mathew-

I do not see any bashing from people who never ate her food...I was just asking a question.

FM

I wasn't referring to your post.

And there's definitely Alice-bashing in this thread.

[Busboy]

I dined once at Chez Panisse and it was extraordinary. As I recall:

Blonde Lillet -- just forced on me as an hors d'oevre. Luscious.

An omlette-thingy encircling a variety of vegerabled including eggplant, onion, green pepper and others, each vegetable very lightly cooked in a slightly different style, so the flaver overlapped and cascaded.

Fish served in a wonderful broth with a puree of fresh cilantro.

Roasted duck leg

Wonderful peaches -- could have been served without accompaniment (except for the Hungarian Tokay we had ordered) but instead has a little champaign gelee going.

It was wonderful.

Of course, Alice wasn't in the kitchen. (Alice Doesn't Live Here Any More).

So, I find Alice a little irritating, too, but I cut her some slack for owning, if not running, a good joint.

[Jinmyo]

Mathew-

I do not see any bashing from people who never ate her food...I was just asking a question.

FM

I wasn't referring to your post.

And there's definitely Alice-bashing in this thread.

I think it's just Icon-Alice that is being bunged about a bit.

I don't think that the fact she has had a large and good influence can be questioned. But there are questionable miracles that have been attributed to her. And the didactic and doctrinaire tone that she is at least represented as having over the last years also begs for a bit of bungeree.

[MatthewB]

And the didactic and doctrinaire tone that she is at least represented as having over the last years also begs for a bit of bungeree.

I have no interest in enshrining Ms. Waters in any way.

But I'd like to see what she's *said* & *done* discussed when critiquing her.

To go on second-hand info & blurbs is simply unfair.

[schaem]

I think the comments about Alice being in the kitchen or the question, "Can she cook?" are a litlle mis-informed. I don't think she was ever in the kitchen. I don't know that anyone ever thought she "could cook".

[Jinmyo]

And the didactic and doctrinaire tone that she is at least represented as having over the last years also begs for a bit of bungeree.

I have no interest in enshrining Ms. Waters in any way.

But I'd like to see what she's *said* & *done* discussed when critiquing her.

To go on second-hand info & blurbs is simply unfair.

I understand. And agree.

And stand by what I've posted, none of which was about her as such.

[Rachel Perlow]

To go on second-hand info & blurbs is simply unfair.

While that's true in general, the blurb in question was from someone I know and respect his opinion about food. And, I'm aparently not even agreeing with this person. As you can see below, he liked the fact that the dessert was a piece of fruit in a bowl. I am saying that I would not prefer to experience a piece of fruit that way at a restaurant.

Just to be clear, I wasn't bashing AW herself, but describing my reaction to a dessert described in this thread:

I ate there, expecting absolutely *no* culinary wizardry.  No artful little asides.  No intellectual references, and no brilliance.  It was clear to me from what I'd read and what i was seeing when I arrived that Chez panisse doesn't deal in such.  What I did expect was simple and straightforwrd preparations of great seasonal raw materials that were carefully selected and sourced.  This is what I received.  Hell, my dessert was a Pluot in a wooden bowl.  That's it!  But for me, based upon what I already knew about the place, it was enough.

I'm thinking of this post. Now, the poster actually liked the fact that it was just a pluot was served in a wooden bowl. But, to me, if that's what she wants to do -- source and select the finest ingredients -- then she may as well have it be a fancy gourmet store instead of a restaurant.

[FoodMan]

I think the comments about Alice being in the kitchen or the question, "Can she cook?" are a litlle mis-informed.  I don't think she was ever in the kitchen.  I don't know that anyone ever thought she "could cook".

Ok let's assume I've never heard of Alice Waters. Please explain to me what DOES she do?? I was under the impression that she was a Chef.

FM

[MatthewB]

FWIW, I hope this thread continues--as a discussion of the article that prompted the original post.

I visited multiple bookstores earlier this morning & none have the October issue on the stands.

[MatthewB]

I think the comments about Alice being in the kitchen or the question, "Can she cook?" are a litlle mis-informed.  I don't think she was ever in the kitchen.  I don't know that anyone ever thought she "could cook".

Ok let's assume I've never heard of Alice Waters. Please explain to me what DOES she do?? I was under the impression that she was a Chef.

FM

In Letters to a Young Chef, Daniel Boulud makes a strong argument that successful "Chefs" must do much more than "cook." But what does Boulud know?

Edited September 12, 2003 by MatthewB (log)

[fresco]

I've never dined at her restaurant, and likely never will. From all that I have heard and read, Waters has styled herself as an evangelist for fresh, local produce. It seems almost trite now, which is probably a testament to her success.

My direct experience is that she not unique in featuring fresh fruit unadorned as a dessert. A lot of people are eager to bypass more elaborate confections to sample the best and freshest, including, if some recent threads are any indication, folks who post on eGullet.

[GordonCooks]

My direct experience is that she not unique in featuring fresh fruit unadorned as a dessert. A lot of people are eager to bypass more elaborate confections to sample the best and freshest, including, if some recent threads are any indication,  folks  who post on eGullet.

Serving a beautiful Valencia Orange for dessert is very "Chez Panisse".

Getting the idea from a chinese restaurant is not.