Thomas Keller's "Per Se" Pre-Opening Discussion

[Pan]

Sorry, mudbug, I also vote for the "Per Se is a totally sucky name" party.

And old French origins? For "per se"? It's pure Latin.

[Janedujour]

Hell they could have called it the Chinese Laundry or the Jewish Tailor and it would have been a better name.

Can we call it "Percy" instead?

I think he might have been afraid to refer to the new place in any kind of laundry context, thinking that us New Englanders would show up with pockets full of quarters to pay the bill!!

[herbacidal]

while i can imagine better names, I don't think "Per Se" is as bad as some think.

I do wonder who's gonna take over for Rouxel at FL.

[Jason Perlow]

Hell they could have called it the Chinese Laundry or the Jewish Tailor and it would have been a better name.

Personally, I like "The Jewish Tailor". Its the right neighborhood for it too. "The Garment Factory" works for me too.

[herbacidal]

while i can imagine better names, I don't think "Per Se" is as bad as some think. 

I do wonder who's gonna take over for Rouxel at FL.

i do see there's a thread on rouxel's successor at FL in pastry+baking.

[Schneier]

Sorry, mudbug, I also vote for the "Per Se is a totally sucky name" party.

Hear hear.

Bruce

[mudbug]

No problem, I'm suppose I'm just looking for those who don't like it to justify exactly why they don't like it and what their suggestions are...

Pan,

Also from the OED:

A Latin (Ital. and Old French) preposition, meaning Ôthrough, by, by means ofÕ; in med.L. and Fr. also in a distributive sense = Ôfor every..., for each...Õ: used in Eng. in various Latin and OF. phrases, and ultimately becoming practically an Eng. preposition used freely before substantives of many classes.

Edited October 13, 2003 by mudbug (log)

[docsconz]

I don't care what the name is, I still want to dine there this winter

[Pan]

No problem, I'm suppose I'm just looking for those who don't like it to justify exactly why they don't like it and what their suggestions are...

Pan,

Also from the OED:

A Latin (Ital. and Old French) preposition, meaning Ôthrough, by, by means ofÕ; in med.L. and Fr. also in a distributive sense = Ôfor every..., for each...Õ: used in Eng. in various Latin and OF. phrases, and ultimately becoming practically an Eng. preposition used freely before substantives of many classes.

I made at least one suggestion: Christophe Colombe, seeing that it'll be on Columbus Circle.

And for what it's worth, this is from www.m-w.com:

One entry found for per se.

Main Entry: per se

Pronunciation: (")p&r-'sA also per-'sA or (")p&r-'sE

Function: adverb

Etymology: Latin

Date: 1572

: by, of, or in itself or oneself or themselves : as such : INTRINSICALLY

Certainly, old French used what we'd consider "Italian-style" expressions no longer used in modern French pronunciation (and spelling), but essentially no-one is going to think "French" when they hear or see "per se," so I really doubt that went into anyone's thinking.

I guess, considering the meaning of the expression, Keller may be trying to make a claim of uniqueness for his new place. But is that likely to be highly valid, given that he already has the French Laundry?

[Lady T]

But is that likely to be highly valid, given that he already has the French Laundry?

Perhaps is this the loudest signal Keller could possibly send that he doesn't want this place compared to the FL -- that he wants it judged only on its own merits, whatever those turn out to be?

Futile hope, I'd think. Intriguing, though.

[Dave the Cook]

If I read this correctly (scroll to the last sentence of Russ' post), there will be some sort of announcement tomorrow.

[russ parsons]

yeah, i should have read other forums, but you guys kept me busy in mine. i've got a short piece on it tomorrow. lady t has hit the nail on the head as far as thomas' reasoning. as for myself, i'll reserve judgement. when he asked me what i thought, i told him i was afraid people would call it "purse". my suggestion, at which he scoffed, was "grace", first because it sums up the Keller dining experience for me and also because where i'm from, that's what folks say before they eat.

[Schneier]

I like "Grace" as a restaurant name.

Bruce

[russ parsons]

Thomas likes it as a bar name, which I can see. Hey, I'll go anywhere he puts together. Come to think of it "French Laundry" sounded like a pretty funny name 10 years ago, didn't it?

[Fat Guy]

Russ has escaped from his Q&A. I think that means he wants more questions!

[mcdowell]

There's a bit of information in today's San Francisco Chronicle on Per Se in Walden's The Inside Scoop column:

At 65 seats, it's about the same size as French Laundry, which has 62. It will be open for dinner nightly and lunch on Friday, Saturday and Sunday -- the same schedule as French Laundry. Per Se will also offer fixed price menus, as does French Laundry

Goes on to say that the French Laundry will close after dinner service on New Year's Eve, reopening next April or May.

[Fat Guy]

Thomas likes it as a bar name, which I can see. Hey, I'll go anywhere he puts together. Come to think of it "French Laundry" sounded like a pretty funny name 10 years ago, didn't it?

Yes, but my take on it is that the difference is that there's no way to interpret "French Laundry" as pretentious -- it's quirky, like so much of Keller's food -- whereas "Per Se" is going to be seen as so high-falutin' as to be off-putting to some. I know, as does anybody who has followed him closely enough, that Keller actually has a great sense of humor and can be self-effacing, but when you name your restaurant "Per Se" (or "Grace" for that matter) you're buying into a cult of personality situation that may not be productive from a public relations standpoint. The last thing Keller should be doing is coming into the city with people saying, "Who the hell does this pretentious schmuck think he is? Per Se? Give me a break." The name implies something ultimate, quasi-religious or philosophical, etc. He got bad advice on this one, and he doesn't have the excuses that Ducasse had -- he's an American and has worked in New York; he should know better. All New Yorkers really would have needed was to have the place named either "French Laundry New York" or some variant on Keller's name. And plenty of people were telling him that all along. Now you'll see the name Per Se routinely ridiculed.

[eliotmorgan]

At 65 seats it's the exact number as Ducasse (ADNY).

[bloviatrix]

The last thing Keller should be doing is coming into the city with people saying, "Who the hell does this pretentious schmuck think he is? Per Se? Give me a break."

I've got to disagree with you on this one. Keller's reputation is a given to those serious about eating good food, so they're going to dine there regardless of the name. I can't imagine there is anyone on this board who won't eat at the restaurant because the name is latin. And for the trendy types - they'll go too because of all the buzz surrounding the restaurant.

Keller could name the restaurant with a glyph a la "the artist formerly known as Prince" and it wouldn't make a difference.

[Fat Guy]

Keller's reputation could be poured into Ducasse's pinky, and look what happened to him. Ducasse survived, as will Keller, but it cost him plenty. The restaurant business is tough, even for those at its apex, and there are a lot of restaurants in New York City. A stupid name alone probably won't be a big deal, but if it's indicative of an overall presentation that involves the restaurant taking itself too seriously, well, New York can be a tough town for those who use too much Latin.

[eliotmorgan]

The last thing Keller should be doing is coming into the city with people saying, "Who the hell does this pretentious schmuck think he is? Per Se? Give me a break."

Who the hell does this pretentious schmuck think he is? Per Se? Give me a break," Fat-Guy writes.

Truer words on this topic and this place (NYC) could not be spoken in relation to restaurants. NYC is a scene town, the scene is more important than the food in most cases--Le Cirque spent a small fortune adjusting the height of its chairs after its patrons complained other diners couldn’t see them.

Ducasse was hanged, drawn and quartered because he tried to give NYC a level of luxury it hadn’t seen both on and off the plate, and New Yorkers, ultimately provincial, don’t take well to folks who surprise or, god forbid, instruct. They do have it all, right? Say’s so in the movies and the papers. We use to test anyone who claimed to have eaten there with the question, “But what did you think of the bar?” Most failed this, but it’s kind of like asking about Trotter’s extensive whisky selection.

New York’s 4 Star restaurants largely make money on a small clientele: bankers, consultants, tourists, and business travelers. The reputation—another matter-- is by the NY Times and those who fill out the Zagat Survey, most of whom have never set foot in the restaurant they’re reviewing. Such fraud can cost a restaurant hundreds of thousands of dollars, and can sink an upstart. Even Ducasse had evenings when fewer than 20 clients were served and unbeknownst to the general “foodie” public they had the best French food in America.

As long as Keller can avoid a Wm. Grimes “preview” and has the smarts to “democratize” his fare, and most importantly provide his PR people with some standard blurb about how he has learned a great deal from NYC or finds “inspiration” for his food there he’ll be fine. Then maybe the NY Post won’t claim folks were spitting his food out into their napkins.

Edited October 16, 2003 by eliotmorgan (log)

[BigboyDan]

Ducasse couldn't care less about ADNY (he can feed NYers in his sleep); he has to do business in the US to protect his name and its copywrite. Making money off know-it-alls is fun too...

There's only one reason for Keller to do anything other than the FL: money.

[eliotmorgan]

Ducasse couldn't care less about ADNY (he can feed NYers in his sleep); he has to do business in the US to protect his name and its copywrite. Making money off know-it-alls is fun too...

Did anyone ever teach you that vehemence doesn’t add cogency to an argument? Actually, Ducasse has his largest personal equity stake in ADNY and the newly opened Mix. I worked at ADNY until I recently moved from NYC. We can get more particular if you'd like. Now where does your knowledge of The Ducasse Group come from?

Edited October 16, 2003 by eliotmorgan (log)

[Fat Guy]

Ducasse couldn't care less about ADNY

That's certainly the perception the media tried to create, and in many cases they succeeded in painting Ducasse as patronizing and arrogant. Meanwhile, when you think about his accomplishments, you realize that a less arrogant and patronizing guy has never walked the Earth, except maybe a few characters in the Bible, and Ducasse never had the slightest need to open a restaurant in the US. He was already the world's most acclaimed chef, with however many Michelin stars he had (I think he was up to 12, and you don't get more by operating in the US). With Ducasse, the deck was stacked against him from the beginning because he was a foreigner and his restaurant was so apparently elitist. But he could have handled the PR situation a lot better and taken a lot fewer punches.

Likewise, Keller is already arguably the most acclaimed American chef. It should be a simple enough matter for him to take advantage of that, rather than have it work against him. Being an American, and a former New York chef, he could overcome the xenophobia problem simply by repeating over and over that this is his homecoming. Of course now he has to say "Per Se is my homecoming," which will make him sound like a putz, when he could have said, "French Laundry New York is my homecoming," which would have sounded just fine. In terms of combatting the pretentiousness and elitism claims, Keller also has a built-in advantage: his food is quite whimsical and he can play that up. Unfortunately, now he has to say, "The food at Per Se is quite whimsical." Yeah, right, that sounds convincing.

[Fat Guy]

NYC is a scene town, the scene is more important than the food in most cases

NYC is definitely a scene town, but the one thing I'd clarify here is that there are plenty of non-scene-oriented educated foodies in New York City. There are even enough to fill a 65-seat restaurant every night. But there aren't enough to fill the top 50 restaurants every night, not even close, so what happens is that even at the very top of the pyramid you have a dining room like ADNY filled with 10% scene-immune gastronomes and 90% people who don't care about the food very much and have come for a host of other reasons. So if you want to succeed in NYC, you have to play to the perceptions of the scene crowd, and if you want to be both a four-star restaurant and a scene restaurant you have to straddle a very precarious fence. If you don't perform that balancing act, you wind up like Lespinasse: four stars and bankrupt.