Osterie d'Italia by Slow Food

[Craig Camp]

I have to say that it was great stuff for packaged proscuitto. Better then the packaged stuff they have in NYC.

And why do you say that Italian cuisine is on the way up? And I'm not saying that it isn't. Just what evidence is there that it is?

I think you are the only one saying it is not on the way up. This is like waking a sleeping giant. No other country has the range of high quality raw materials - both food and wine. The example of France is of course an inspiration, as well it should be. What the French have accomplished in the kitchen can only be awarded the highest respect.

Edited April 9, 2003 by Craig Camp (log)

[Steve Plotnicki]

Okay I'm going to give you an eye test. I said the following;

"And why do you say that Italian cuisine is on the way up? And I'm not saying that it isn't. Just what evidence is there that it is?

and then you said;

I think you are the only one saying it is not on the way up.

HELLOOOOO

I just said I'm not saying that. But I am holding it in reserve .

[Wilfrid]

Thanks for playing with Steve, Craig - I managed to get some work done today.

[Craig Camp]

Steve I don't need an eyetest. I am referring to your persistent and overall attack on Italian cuisine as anything beyond glorified home cooking. Do not confuse the issue by trying to limit the discussion to your last post as you have made hundreds (maybe thousands) on just this topic.

[Craig Camp]

Thanks for playing with Steve, Craig - I managed to get some work done today.

Always glad to help but my fingers are getting tired and I am getting a little paranoid.

[Bill Klapp]

Help is on the way, Steve. For lunch, try the squab salad with lightly smoked foie gras and pomegranate at All' Enoteca in Canale d' Alba, and polish off your meal with the meringue with rosemary gelato and warm wild strawberries. Then for dinner, drive to Torre Pellice (overshadowed by the French Alps, by the way, in case the urge to flee Italy strikes you when you encounter a local service station where you have to pay inside or suffer some similar indignity) and go to Flipot (just awarded its second Michelin star, and the chef isn't even French!), where you should try the antipasto comprised of rollatini of local brook trout and Swiss chard, a small filet of the aforementioned trout pan-fried in Alpine butter and a few local crawfish for good measure, and then fresh lavender creme brulee, lavender sformato (flan) or lavender sorbet for dessert. It is admittedly simple home cooking, completely devoid of any imagination or fusion, and the very but it sure is tasty and filling! (I suppose that you could take a bite of the fish and the lavender sorbet together, and create an interesting new flavor.)

[Steve Plotnicki]

Steve I don't need an eyetest. I am referring to your persistent and overall attack on Italian cuisine as anything beyond glorified home cooking

You Italophiles personalize these things so. Why is it an attack? It's just an analysis of the cuisine. Why about that would be an attack? Why isn't it just a fair analysis? And why is my analysis wrong? Where is the evidence to disprove it?

[Suvir Saran]

Help is on the way, Steve.  For lunch, try the squab salad with lightly smoked foie gras and pomegranate at All' Enoteca in Canale d' Alba, and polish off your meal with the meringue with rosemary gelato and warm wild strawberries.  Then for dinner, drive to Torre Pellice (overshadowed by the French Alps, by the way, in case the urge to flee Italy strikes you when you encounter a local service station where you have to pay inside or suffer some similar indignity) and go to Flipot (just awarded its second Michelin star, and the chef isn't even French!), where you should try the antipasto comprised of rollatini of local brook trout and Swiss chard, a small filet of the aforementioned trout pan-fried in Alpine butter and a few local crawfish for good measure, and then fresh lavender creme brulee, lavender sformato (flan) or lavender sorbet for dessert.  It is admittedly simple home cooking, completely devoid of any imagination or fusion, and the very but it sure is tasty and filling!  (I suppose that you could take a bite of the fish and the lavender sorbet together, and create an interesting new flavor.)

Stuck in Denver for personal reasons that are grave and serious, I wish I could have been in Italy enjoying the meal you describe.

Sounds wonderful and the desserts sound amazing.

Can you share more about them please?

Nothing like inspired simple home cooking for me.

It is that which I miss in Denver.

[Craig Camp]

Steve I don't need an eyetest. I am referring to your persistent and overall attack on Italian cuisine as anything beyond glorified home cooking

You Italophiles personalize these things so. Why is it an attack? It's just an analysis of the cuisine. Why about that would be an attack? Why isn't it just a fair analysis? And why is my analysis wrong? Where is the evidence to disprove it?

I would question your analysis because you seem to be outnumbered 6300 to 1 on this topic among eGullet members. It could be more now but that was the number of members a minute ago. No one is making this argument from the same position that you hold.

I would describe your attitude as an attack because in seems more of an attempt to prove the superiority of French cuisine, which you love, to Italian cuisine, which you don't love, than it is an attempt to really analyze the food of Italy. Your outright rejection of pasta as anything 'interesting' is proof that you do not have an open mind on this subject.

[Craig Camp]

Help is on the way, Steve.  For lunch, try the squab salad with lightly smoked foie gras and pomegranate at All' Enoteca in Canale d' Alba, and polish off your meal with the meringue with rosemary gelato and warm wild strawberries.  Then for dinner, drive to Torre Pellice (overshadowed by the French Alps, by the way, in case the urge to flee Italy strikes you when you encounter a local service station where you have to pay inside or suffer some similar indignity) and go to Flipot (just awarded its second Michelin star, and the chef isn't even French!), where you should try the antipasto comprised of rollatini of local brook trout and Swiss chard, a small filet of the aforementioned trout pan-fried in Alpine butter and a few local crawfish for good measure, and then fresh lavender creme brulee, lavender sformato (flan) or lavender sorbet for dessert.  It is admittedly simple home cooking, completely devoid of any imagination or fusion, and the very but it sure is tasty and filling!  (I suppose that you could take a bite of the fish and the lavender sorbet together, and create an interesting new flavor.)

Stuck in Denver for personal reasons that are grave and serious, I wish I could have been in Italy enjoying the meal you describe.

Sounds wonderful and the desserts sound amazing.

Can you share more about them please?

Nothing like inspired simple home cooking for me.

It is that which I miss in Denver.

Hey Suvir, thanks for dropping by the Italy forum. I owe you a visit!

[Steve Plotnicki]

Hey maybe I'm wrong. I'd be quite happy for you to prove me wrong because it means that there are more interesting places to eat in. Problem is, as many times as I ask you to put forth some evidence that interesting cooking does exist in Italy (outide of Vedat's list) you have offered zippo. Otherwise you could question anything you want. It's your reputation on the line when you do it. The big fressers who lurk this site can parse the good from the bad opinions about this stuff anyway they want. I'm quite happy for them to consider me wrong as long as I get to choose what I eat for dinner .

[Steve Plotnicki]

Bill - Sorry I missed your post. Flipot is one of the places I was looking at trying when I was there in October. But I'm going back for a few days this October and maybe I will try it.

[Suvir Saran]

Hey Suvir, thanks for dropping by the Italy forum. I owe you a visit!

You owe me nothing. You are far too kind and gracious. Thanks!

The Indian forum like India and most any other culture one tries to study, shall continue to live, a person or two or many hundred millions could be ignored by those outside that land, but they still matter where they live, thrive, die and breathe.. And knowing that is what makes India and its Indian forum on eGullet thrive... the beauty of Indias resillience and also the mysterious ways in which it affects you and changes you... I am told by my dear friend Gael Greene that Italy is quite similar. She is a fan of both these countries and their foods.... they also happen to be two cuisines that inspire me more than most any other... But then there are desserts.. and French desserts are my weakness.. and there are dumplings (of course Chinese) that make me stop doing whatever occupies me, so I can indulge in them totally and get lost into what all must enrich the Chinese culture that something so simple can be so powerful..... and so many other dishes from so many other cultures have similar impact on me ... The Indian forum would love to have your visits, but it would be just as happy thriving alongside a rich and lively Italian forum. That would be even better...

I would be happy just reading more of this forums great offerings from the amazing and rich world of Italian food and wine. If you can keep up this great work, you would make many like me very happy. You would owe nothing more to anybody.. If they enjoy your forum even half as much as I do.

I am all eyes and ears to learn from you and all others that share in this forum. I have loved Italian food... no matter what name people assign to it, home or haute, I am a fan and in love with it. And I thank you for this forum Craig.

[Craig Camp]

The big fressers who lurk this site can parse the good from the bad opinions about this stuff anyway they want.

Please forgive my ignorance. What are fressers and should I be afraid of lurking ones? Can they read my thoughts? They must be deities as they understand the basic truths of the food universe and can parse good from bad. Where does one go worship them? When will they stop lurking and reveal themselves?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Can they read my thoughts?

Just your words. That's enough.

Fresser is the Yiddish word for people with hearty appetites.

Let's ratchet this baby up a bit. Do you not agree that French wine is superior to Italian wine?

[hollywood]

Let's ratchet this baby up a bit. Do you not agree that French wine is superior to Italian wine? 

In the interest of a good fight, please don't agree.

[Craig Camp]

Can they read my thoughts?

Just your words. That's enough.

Fresser is the Yiddish word for people with hearty appetites.

Let's ratchet this baby up a bit. Do you not agree that French wine is superior to Italian wine?

Whew! That's a relief.

As far as the wine question do you mean now or twenty years ago as those seem to be the wines you are drinking - you lucky dog.

If you mean then, yes.

If you mean now, no.

The answer now is no because France just can't offer the broad range of quality wine styles offered in Italy. The only French wine Italy can't match Parker point for Parker point is Burgundy and this is no big deal because no one really makes great pinot noir or chardonnay other then Burgundy - nice yes, great no.

But to get to the heart of the matter I actually do not believe Italian wines are superior to French wines or vice versa (same for the food). What is the point in arguing that one is superior to the other when it is their differences that make them exciting and make them match certain foods in certain ways. In the past it was no contest, but it is no longer the past and France does not hold the elite position it once held. There are great restaurants all over the globe making food inspired by the local cuisine. World class wines are being made in California, Australia, New Zealand, South American and South Africa. Fine dining and fine wines are no longer under the control of one country but are a truly international phenomena.

[Craig Camp]

Let's ratchet this baby up a bit. Do you not agree that French wine is superior to Italian wine? 

In the interest of a good fight, please don't agree.

No problem.

[Bill Klapp]

False premise is the problem, Steve. I haven't found much evidence of analysis in your posts, much less fair analysis. The relative cleanliness of Swiss versus Italian streets in a border town somehow doesn't seem to advance the cuisine ball very far. A semantic debate centered on the word "interesting" didn't contribute much, either. Craig hit upon something very important a minute ago-the French culinary scene is in a state of some disarray, while the Italians, through initiatives like Slow Food, are defending a rich culinary heritage and preserving its best ingredients, while at the same time, a new generation of chefs are reinterpreting traditional recipes and those ingredients in exciting new ways.

The classic butter and cream-based haut cuisine has all but disappeared. Paul Bocuse's restaurant is more of a museum than a restaurant (but still very good, nonetheless). Cuisine minceur, probably motivated by the greedy desire to boost profits by offering less food for more money, has been dead for two decades. One of the current generation of elite French chefs, Bernard Loiseau, committed suicide recently, possibly because he suffered from depression, but not, as reported, because his restaurant had lost two points in the latest Gault Millau, but rather because his publicly-traded restaurant empire was losing money. So whither French cuisine? Fusion? Fusion certainly has a bright future. Take two or more cuisines that are not strong enough to make a statement on their own and do a mix-or-match thing. Spend a week in a noveau American city like Atlanta, eliminate the steak houses, the seafood houses and the ethnic restaurants, eat in every remaining touted restaurant in the city and tell me if you can honestly tell the difference among them (or remember any of them a week later). America may well have killed the viability of the fusion concept before the French have taken it up in earnest. What does that leave? A bunch of overpriced Paris restaurants flanked by a zillion bistros of ever-declining quality that open and close on a revolving-door basis? Gimmicky concept restaurants like Spoons? The answer is...YES.

That, and the simplistic, homestyle cooking in places like Burgundy, Alsace and Normandy. You know, chickens braised in red wine, choucroute, local cheeses, that sort of thing. And guess what, Steve? That is where people who REALLY know French food eat. Where the food has evolved to marry perfectly with the native wines. Where only fresh, local ingredients are used, and prepared in ways that showcase those ingredients. Not in Paris (or Milano, just to show you that I am even-handed about these issues), where they sell more Perigord black truffles each year than Perigord could produce in a decade. (And while I'm at it, I'll let you in on a little secret, Steve-most Perigord truffles come from a little town in Umbria called Norcia, which produces a superior product!) In short, places that seem to me awfully like the adjacent Northern Italian countryside. In Italy, it is enough to have one great ristorante, sometimes run for decades by the same family with change, to be sure, but no loss of quality over time. No publicly traded haut cuisine restaurant chains for these folks. The emperor has no clothes, Steve. Cover up before you catch cold!

[Bill Klapp]

Suvir, thanks, and I'll try to post some of my home cooking finds for your benefit from time to time!

[Steve Plotnicki]

Bill - Are you really John Whiting?

I'm just joking. You have made all political arguments. Stop talking about money and tell me about interesting food. All you gave me was a bunch of hyperbole about Slow Food chefs blah, blah, blah. Name dishes that are interesting and why they are interesting? Place them in the great continuum of cooking that has been going on for 100 years in France and Italy. As for black truffles, I don't know, when I was in Richeranches last year, those truffles sure seemed local.

As for "real French food," all you have done is say that home-style cooking is real food. Again, that's a political argument. The best cooking in France is not going on in places that serve home-style cooking. It's going on where highly trained chefs practice a certain type of culinary technique. Unfortunately in Italy the best food is going on in home style restaurants where the same level of culinary technique as France isn't expended. And I think that it is more then just my take on it. I think any objective analysis of the techniques they apply will find my analysis credible.

Now you might not like all that fancy technique. Just like people don't like the fancy technique that makes the ballet and opera what they are. But to deny it has any value is not a realistic statement. And when you call it "emperors new clothes," you begin to lose credibility IMHO. French cuisine has an entire level of culinary technique that is missing from Italian cuisine. That Italian cuisine hasn't created an equivelent, is in my opinion, a failing on it's part. Hopefully that is being corrected now. And if you don't think that is a fair and honest assessment of the culinary scene there, I'm afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree about it.

Craig - I was just joking. I don't drink enough Italian wine outside of Barolo to really be able to engage in the debate properly. But you can't be serious about Italy matching French wine for cabernet and merlot. Yes there are some good wines in Italy but they are not in the same league as the first growths. And I mean on a regular basis. I'm not saying it never happens.

[Bill Klapp]

And now to the wine question: neither country's wine can be said to be superior to the other's. There can be no meaningful debate about the greatness of the first-growth Bordeaux, but like any other wine-growing region on earth, the quality goes downhill (albeit slowly, over a huge number of wines) from there. I am not a big fan of Cabernet and Merlot-based wines, but only because they are not food-friendly. Sauternes, Barzac, Loire and Alsatian wines all have a place in my cellar. I give France the edge on sweet wines. White burgundies have no equal among Chardonnays, and great red burgundies are to die for, but entirely too few and far between. I am much enamored of Rhone wines, both north and south, because they are so food-friendly and because so many classic French dishes were created with them in mind. On the other hand, Beaujolais and most of the non-Rhone southern wines hit incredible heights of mediocrity, cheap though they are. Champagne is largely a matter of personal taste, but for me, it is vastly overrated. And that's French wine in a nutshell.

On to Italy: Barolo and Barbaresco are the equal of the best French wines, especially in the hands of the masters, such as Gaja, Giacosa, the Conterno brothers and even that new wave guy, Sandrone. You have the long aging issue of Bordeaux, but if you wait, you get to drink something that is more reliably pleasurable than, and shares many characteristics with, the best red burgundy. I am also a fan of Brunello from the best producers. Although they deliver near-term pleasure, I am sceptical of the so-called Supertuscans, most of which were fashioned for the American need for big fruit and instant gratification, and are grossly overpriced. As Craig suggested, the real edge for Italy is in the incredible diversity of its wines, both white and red, virtually all of which are vinified to complement the foods of their regions perfectly. Italy beats France hands-down on the everyday drinking wines-Barbera, Dolcetto, Arneis, the best Soaves and Pinot Grigios, Chianti Classico, the list goes on and on. The lesser Italians are also among the greatest wine values on earth. And in addition to all of that, you can grow high-quality Cab, Chard, Syrah and Merlot in Italy, and while there may never be an Italian Bordeaux, there are many which are better than their California cousins. On balance, I have situated myself perfectly in retirement-in the middle of the Barbaresco vineyards, which access to all of Italy's wine and food bounty, but only a few hours from the best French wine regions as well.

It should be noted that both countries produce vast quantities of truly dreadful wine, and on a per capita dreadful bottle scale, the French probably win this dubious contest. I like to think that there are a fair number of unscrupulous French wine producers (history certainly bears that out), whereas bad Italian wine is more often the result of the producer simply not knowing how to make wine!

[Steve Plotnicki]

I think that was a fair post. But I think you have slightly overstated the greatness of Barolo and Barbaresco. Both great, but they fall short of the best Burgundy and Bordeaux in my book. To me they are more the equivelent of Rhone wines, but I think they are bigger and better then Rhone wines are. That is a function of Rhone wines being for the most part, 20 year wines, and Barolo being long term agers.

But you're right about every day drinking wines. Outside of the Loire, France doesn't do a very good job with everyday wines. But then again, the country is focused on the luxury wine business because it is such a valuable business for them.

[Jim Dixon]

a little town in Umbria called Norcia

mmmmmmm....porky

Jim

[Bill Klapp]

Steve, sorry to disagree, but the best cooking in Italy is NOT going on in home-style restaurants. Surely you can't be so provincial as to believe that, at the top restaurants in Italy, the chefs have not received training and apprenticeships just as rigorous as those in France. It is true in both countries that, due to the extraordinary quality of the raw ingredients, chefs that have not been professionally trained can produce brilliant and innovative cuisine. It is equally true that most professionally trained chefs in both countries never hit the heights of the very best. I have to give it up for tonight, but I do want to throw you this bone-the French do invest infinitely more time in presentation, and if that floats your boat, fair enough. I much prefer great food on the plate and great art on the walls, but to each his own. I can appreciate, but cannot taste, technique and presentation. I leave you with a question-are white truffles interesting to you?