Vancouver food impressions

[oakland barb]

We've always loved visiting Vancouver- such a nice change of pace and so close to the Bay Area. And the food has always been great. This trip (we gave in and stayed at the Four Seasons) had more ups and downs than past trips. First night we ate at Vij's. Not only was the food superb and ambiance fun but we were treated like long lost friends. We gave very serious consideration to returning but with only 3 nights decided to keep trying new things. One of my biggest complaints is that so few of the restaurants I wanted to go to were open for lunch. Ate a poor room service breakfast at the Four Seasons (although the crab cakes in the bar later were great!). Four Seasons usually do a great job with their food and we'd had a wonderful breakfast here a few years ago but this was almost inedible. My husband and I spent some time trying to figure out just what the hollandaise was made from. Skipped lunch, then the crab cakes and then dinner at West. It was amazingly empty for all I've read about the restaurant (and certainly compared to Vij the night before). I don't believe there were ever more than half the tables occupied. Dinner began beautifully with an "amuse" of a foamy asparagus soup with truffle oil (what's not to like?). My husband had the house salad (fine) and I went on to a few smaller preparations. I began with the foie gras parfait which was divine- when I got it. The waiter (who had a distinct attitude) brought the wrong dish insisting that he remembered my asking a question that made him assume I'd ordered it. I hadn't and had been clear (I know I'm not always and gladly admit it, but this wasn't one of those times). I don't like arguing with a waiter! There was a very pleasant young woman who seemed to be "helping" our waiter out and fortunately we saw more of her than him. Next course for me was the coq au vin- excellent! But the osso buco that followed must have marinated for days in rosemary as the whole dish was so overwhelming I found it inedible. My husband was hungry and ate it. I didn't complain because I was loath to incur the wrath of the waiter again. My husbands rib eye was very good but we were perplexed by the fact that it came "ready sliced" which not only cooled it rapidly but let the juices flow from the meat. Maybe there was something about this I missed. I ordered the sugar pumpkin ravioli after being told it was a house signature dish. One bite and back it went, waiter be damned!! Amaretti cookies. I felt like I was eating a strange dessert! It was again overwhelming in flavor and I don't like amaretti cookies. The waitress removed it this time, quickly and returned a few minutes later to tell me they were preparing the alternative ravioli of the night as we spoke. I was not asked if or what else I might want! We skipped dessert. Determined to give the place another try given the reputation we went for lunch the next day. Same fabulous foie gras parfait (although this time it had a nice sprinkling of salt over it- something I'd had to do the night before), onion soup- very good but reduced to the point of saltiness and my husband had a parsnip and apple soup- wonderful flavor but it cooled so quickly it must have been heated equally so. I don't think I'd go back.

Dinner that evening was Cioppino's. The restaurant was busy with the owner greeting only the tables of people he knew (or so it appeared). I had an asparagus and morel starter with "truffle mousse"- don't know how it was prepared but not the slighted hint of truffle taste despite the black shavings and the mousse was, well I don't know quite what, but tough and white. I had a crab and lobster pasta that was good- not great. My husband had venison "osso bucco"- again, fine. No dessert and wouldn't bother going back.

Most of this was a great surprise. We've eaten at Villa del Lupo many times but had heard it had slipped and wanted to try something new. Would have tried lunch at Lumiere, had it been open. Next visit Vij's, Vij's Vij's!! I'd love to know if anyone has had similar experiences at these restaurants!

[Fat Guy]

Can you tell us more about what you ate at Vij's?

[oakland barb]

Guess I got so carried away with how good everything was I neglected to mention it! I was very impressed with the chai offered to me as I stood at the wine bar. The area wasn't crowded (it was a Wednesday night) but bustling. We were served 3 different vegetarian hors d'ouvres brought around on a plate by one of the waitresses. The first was a tiny fried crispy samosa kind of thing that had been broken at the top and filled with tiny chopped sautéed vegetables, second was a little potato puri and I can't for the life of me remember the third! The wine list was fun in that all wines cost 8.50 a glass or 32.00 a bottle. Most impressive for me was the Merridale Cider they offered. We'd visited Merridale many years ago and were so impressed I spent some time trying to figure out if there were a way to import it to California.

Now I can tell you I'm glad I brought home a menu. We began with the Louisiana prawns in serrano pepper and coconut masala- wonderful tastes and prawns perfectly cooked (boy, am I tired of mushy crustaceans!). Along with that were the cauliflower and spinach fritters in coconut coriander curry (very good, crispy and fresh) and my favorite- "khoa" paratha with ginger-lemon chutney- this sounds simple but came with a sautéed green (dinosaur kale?) and was wonderfully tasty!

First main course was the tamarind marinated beef tenderloin with sautéed mushrooms, zucchini and shallots with roasted, spiced whole almonds. Beautifully sauced, excellent quality meat and the whole almonds - wow. Then the lamb popsicles in fenugreek cream curry with turmeric spinach and potatoes. I can't remember when I had a more delicious lamb dish. Although we could not move we gave in to ladoos for dessert. I'm generally not crazy about Indian sweets but these were delicate rather than leaden with a traditional, but not too sweet rose water flavoring. Hope I haven't gone on at too great a length, I enjoy food!

[forever_young_ca]

I live just outside of Vancouver & eat in many of the finer establishments on a regular basis. I agree Vij's is always good - a modern twist of ethnic east Indian. The wonderful combinations that they come up with are great.

Ouest - I have been there several times & enjoyed it. Last time I was there we were 4 in our party, one of which had the flu & had to leave part way throught the meal. The staff could not have been more accomodating. However, the next week we went back and while we enjoyed our meal the waiter had the superior attitude that I hate.

Have you tried the Bacchus Restaurant in the Wedgewood Hotel? I don't know if you have stayed at the Wedegewood, but I love it. It is a "boutique" hotel, small, very traditional in feel on Hornby. The lounge is dark wood panelled & serve great Martinis & traditional English tea. The head chef in the Bacchus trained at the Savoy in London and to my mind the food & service is fabulous.

[Johnathon]

As a Vancouverite who eats too much, I was sorry to hear about Oakland Barb's less than stellar experience in Vancouver Dining. I am also partly surprised.

Vij's has a lockdown on what works for them, it is always busy and always good. The changes in the menu are done just often enough so that you could return on a regular basis and always be introduced to a tantalizing new dish. In a city that rarely packs it's restaurants with diners each and every night, Vij's policy of no reservations is keeping them lined up at the bar waiting to dive into the latest creations from the kitchen.

The Four Seasons is just that, the Four Seasons. As good as it is capable of being, it is still a large hotel chain with a need to please many people and many tastes whether they are genuine interests or feigned likes and dislikes to see how high the staff will jump. The problem with this is like most large hotel groups, it lacks focus and direction.

This is where Vancouver restaurants shine in comparison. Each and every turn in the city is seemingly full of restaurants. The Good, The Bad and The Ugly. They are all there waiting to be tried. The Good are very good due to the constant hunt for the diner's dollar. There are many restaurants of high calibre and few patrons to keep them in the black. The ones that find the ring of power to make them successful deserve the attentions of diners as it is not easy to do here. I have seen many restaurants open that were very good and filled niches very well only to see them slink away silently due to whatever reason the crowds were not coming.

West (nee Ouest) has recently turned a few leaves in it's approach to the dining experience. All these changes have been based upon the physical environment and many additions to the menu in way of smaller plates for the the bar menu and extra tasting menus (I pity the kitchen staff that is required to have all of those menu offerings rolling out on a busy night!). Of all the times I have dined at West, I have never, ever had a dish that could be described as "inedible". The only inedible item I have encountered at West was my napkin, and at the end of an especially "saucy" evening, even that would be debatable!

The Parfait is always amazing, always. And I cannot recall one time it was served to me without a sprinkling of fleur de sel. The butternut squash and sage butter ravioli is a very tasty dish, at least to my taste. Considering these are the two items that have never left the menu, I would suggest that countless others continue to enjoy them as well.

Service on the other hand, everyone has bad days. The diner could be having a rotten day and is taking it out on everyone around them. The waiter would rather be snowboarding than serving that diner. The bartender could not care less about your request for a lime twist in your Evian because his dog has to be taken to the vet.

The point is, and this is only my opinion, that when you go to dine you want to be treated well. I do not mean having the entire wait staff fawning over you, but care and attention to detail and congeniality should be omnipresent. Bad days, trouble at home... who cares. There is a time and a place for everything and we can all testify to having to do something we would rather not be doing but still perform with the best of our ability because we take pride in what impressions we leave behind.

West has always been a bar of level of service that I use to compare when dining anywhere else in the world. Some are better, many are worse. But consistency is key.

I know I am sensitive to any Vancouver bashing and this is painfully evident in this post as I reread it, but I know what this city offers on a regular basis and I am one of the first to point out the variances from the norm. But I also have to say that an award winning restaurant does not get that way by serving inedible food, ever. The joy of dining is that is much like art, highly personal and extremely subjective, therin lies the crux of personal tastes against personal tirades.

Edited March 26, 2003 by Johnathon (log)

[oakland barb]

I'm most surprised that my food observations were considered a "personal tirade" and "Vancouver bashing". I was surprised by many of the meals we ate as we have had consistently good meals in Vancouver in the past. In my first sentence I mention that I've always loved visiting Vancouver. Perhaps I'm mistaken in the purpose of this forum, being new to it. Is it devoted strictly to the positive? I have given you my impressions and not passed them off as anything else. It's wonderful to have a place to learn of good food at home and elsewhere, and in my opinion, to find out what others do and don't care for. I'd greatly appreciate if the forum moderator could let me know if my initial posting was out of line.

[Lesley C]

Barb I'm with you on the overly sweet ravioli and the service at West. I had an arrogant sommelier who definitely added a negative edge to my meal there. And that ravioli is too sweet.

About that parfait, when it arrived in front of me at West I was overwhelmed with an incredible sense of deja vu. When I found out chef Hawksworth worked for Marco Pierre White, it hit me. What looks like the very same parfait, down to the sprinkling of sea salt, is in the 1995 MPW Canteen Cuisine book. The recipe is on p.57.

Johnathon no offense, but I think you overreacted to barb's post. Vancouver has a few exciting restaurants but it still has a ways to go.

["T"]

Barb:

You post em' how you see em'

A review is a review.

Don't worry about hurting anyones feelings, if all we are allowed to give are positive reviews then why bother.

"T"

[Coop]

I have been away on vacation so I may be coming to this discussion a little late. I find that oakland barbs post makes a lot of valid points. I love the food at West, but I believe that some would find thier flavours to be too powerful. As for attitude of the waiters, I think that this problem could raise it's ugly head in any successful establishment. Having met Chef H. last time I dined at West, he is the most humble, and willing to please restauranteur I have met.

As for the Vancouver scene, I can only compare it too the cities i have dined in lately, Palm Springs and Seattle. Believe me we have little to be ashamed of. One must always hope for more though.

[Johnathon]

Oakland Barb: Your post was in no way out of line in my opinion and is exactly what this forum is about. I agree completely with you that it is not an environment wherein only the soft caresses of compliment are meant be passed. Personal observations are just that, personal. As are the rebuttals and subsequent posts from others. We all have our opinions and we all have a right to share them. If anything, I have grown to expect such openness in this forum to learn about so many of the fine dining establishments in the world through the dialogue contained within this site.

Lesley C: No offence taken whatsoever! I have always valued the input you have given in this forum. You mentioned that you felt my post was an ?overreaction?. Absolutely!

I love food and I love the many incredible offerings Vancouver has to offer. In no way to I apologize for being so supportive of West and Chef Hawksworths? cuisine. I have been going to the restaurant since it?s inception and will continue to do so because of what they accomplish in the kitchen. Vancouver may have a ways to go, but I would like to know where it is supposed to go to? Bang for your buck, local ingredients that are requested all over the world, number of quality establishments based on population, number of ethnic communities contributing to incredible markets and fine cuisine, I have never been to a city that could compare to Vancouver based on these observations and the few people who actually live here. We are by no means Manhattan, Montreal or San Francisco Bay Area, but we (as Coop mentioned earlier) have absolutely nothing to be embarrassed by.

I closed my last post with an observation that I am way too sensitive to Vancouver criticism, especially of some of my favourite haunts and even addressed it as being painfully evident upon rereading my post, but I offer no apology for speaking my mind as I expect no apology from anyone else who gives and shares their experiences and observations. It is one of the many reasons this forum works as well as it does.

I have no problem hearing if someone finds a dish too sweet or too salty to his or her own personal tastes, but to describe something as ?inedible? is what got me questioning the criticism and where it was going.

And as a quick aside, the Vancouver magazine restaurant Awards were held recently and a number of restaurants mentioned in this thread have come away with Gold Awards. Vij?s for Best Indian, West for Best Contemporary/Regional Restaurant, and West for Restaurant of the Year. (This does not include the Bronze for last Course or the honorable mentions and Service Award given to their Restaurant Director.) If you have not been to Memphis Blues and love pulled pork, ribs and other gooey goodness, definitely check them out. Gold for (get this) Best Meat. Lumiere took Gold for Best French but did not manage to sustain itself in Gold for any other category.

[tighe]

Like Jonathan, it is hard for me to imagine that something served at West would be "inedible", but I also believe that there are times when people have bad experiences at otherwise great restaurants for whatever reason. Despite all the glowing reviews here and elsewhere, I had an unquestionably bad meal at Babbo in New York. Many people find this inconceivable, but my wife's dinner was almost inedible, litterally. So, I believe it happens.

I also wonder if we have some different definitions of "inedible" in play here. To me inedible means that eating the dish in question either causes significant physical pain or makes me gag. Some people would probably say that anything that they don't care to put in their mouth again is inedible. I also think inedible has a component of personal taste, there are a number of things that I can't stomach that other people absolutely relish.

In any case, just as it is very unlikely that I will ever go back to Babbo, oakland barb will probably never go back to West, and perhaps thats unfortunate for both of us.

[Lesley C]

I think Vancouver could use more chef-owned restaurants and from what I'm hearing from Vancouver food people, better local ingredients -- fish and seafood aside. I was surprised to see Lumiere's chef de cuisine is a Montrealer and how many chefs in Vancouver are from Quebec.

Vancouver needs more David Hawksworths, and David Hawksworths who own their restaurants. I'm also hearing you need a more sophisticated clientele. So that means you need more Johnathons. But Vancouver is a young city and it's evolving beautifully.

[annabel]

more Johnathon's ----- I'll drink to that!

You didn't mention La Regalade, Johnathon. Three time gold winner - Best New Restaurant, Best Bistro / Brasserie and Best North Shore. I haven't made it there yet, but am determined to get there soon. Lesley C will be pleased to learn its chef owned and operated, although Brigitte and Alain Raye are as French as they come! According to Van Mag. "rustic French country cooking is burnished with Alain's Parisian Michelin-starred resume" and "heart warming and heart-stopping full-flavoured French." Any egulleter's tried this one?

Another gold winner and chef-owned op is The Pear Tree (Stephanie and Scott Jaeger) 'Gold for Best of the Burbs' - I know that's a bit of a hokey category but I hear good things about this place all the time - agian - I haven't been, but I did try chef Scott Jaeger's BUTTER BRAISED PHEASANT WITH DOUBLE SMOKED BACON AND TRUFFLE HOLLANDAISE at the Chefs for Life dinner held at Blue Water in Feb and it was divine!!!

Vij's is always a favouite, Vikram is such a great host.

Hip-hip -horay for West!

Edited April 5, 2003 by annabel (log)

[oakland barb]

Please note that we did go back to West the following day and enjoyed lunch. The soups we had, a little saltiness aside, were excellent, as was the parfait. And, as Tighe has mentioned it, Babbo, one of my favorite New York restaurants, has it's up and downs as do most restaurants. I believe the disappointment in some of the food and the less than stellar service worked in combination to color my feelings about West. I also wasn't crazy about the dishes I perceived to be different just to be different. I do disagree with the waiter having a bad day scenario. I've worked in a service driven industry for way too many years and you just have to"get over it" and give the best service even on less than perfect days. If anyone cares for suggestions in the Bay Area (particularly the East Bay) let me know on the California forum. I'd love to know how my favorite places are received by Vancouverites. By the way, my kids thought "Cupcakes" sounded like just the place they'd want to visit (and they're 15 and 17). Fluffy white cake and fluffy, sugary icing certainly hit the spot at 3PM!

["T"]

La Regalade is a bistro. Great for lunch, especially in the summer on the back patio, but if you want fine dining as an evening meal Le Crocodile is a better choice.

The Pear Tree was nice but at the same time it didn't thrill me.

My favorite is still Lumiere. I am not a wealthy man so yeah, that wine list still bugs me.

[fresh_a]

Anyone know of a French couple (who owned the 6 Bosquet a couple years ago in Paris- great!) who bought a restaurant in Vancouver a few years back? Her name is Christine... I'd be really interested to know..

[Johnathon]

Lesley and Annabel, you two make me blush! And that, I assure you, is no easy feat.

I must echo Lesley's call for more Chef owned restaurants in Vancouver. La Regalade and Le Crocodile are prime examples of the Chef owned establishment, as is Piccolo Mondo (who also garnered awards for wine list - Italian). I did not mention La Regalade as I have yet to dine there, Le Crocodile on the other hand is testament to a surviving and thriving French Restaurant in Vancouver. Always a pleasure to dine there and I highly recommend a visit to anyone looking for Alsatian cuisine.

To expand on comments from Oakland Barb on service, I totally agree with you and that is what I had mentioned in my earlier post. I mentioned that even if the sky is falling, you put it behind you and do your best at your chosen profession. After all, if the "bad day" is really that bad, why are you at work? maybe a tad harsh but I agree with Barb that at this level of dining, service is crucial. A dinner can be brilliant but if the entire evening is not as memorable we will always focus on the things that went wrong which in turn taints the overall experience. In my mind, this is such a shame and completely unfair to those in the restaurant going out of their way to make the experience a memorable one to the diner. Sophisticated diner or not.

On that note, I have to say that some of the best service I have ever had came within two weeks of each other and covered each coast. The first was Alain Ducasse in New York and then followed up with a very memorable evening at Boulevard in San Francisco. The next time I am in the Bay Area, I will be sure to ask for some suggestions fron Oakland Barb as I will ask for some suggestions from Lesley about Montreal in May. The value of the input from everyone on this forum is invaluable, it is why I keep coming back to read up on the Good, the Bad and the Ugly in dining from those that actually care about what they consume!

[herbacidal]

as far as service goes,

if the person is at work that day, then everything else should be hidden.

pleasant to deal with, eager to please, etc.

they should also be an efficent/capable server, but it seems like it's almost too much to ask that someone is both pleasant and efficient.

that is the only way to build a service-business.

anything else (big test next day, taking dog to vet, broke up with BF, etc.) should be left behind and / or well hidden.

any service business (and increasingly every business is a service business), the product is not only the deliverable (toy, computer) but it is also how you deliver it.

in the restaurant business this is more important than other service businesses because of the extended time someone is with you.

the service, plus ambience, is how you engage the mind, which is the product. it's how you build the brand image of a restaurant.

barb's experiences at the four seasons is especially deplorable because of its status as a premium brand, and thus what she is paying for that experience/service.

great service and mediocre food will always win out over great food and mediocre service.

great service and great food is even rarer, which is why four seasons as a chain, has done well. quite disappointed to hear what she has told us.

sorry for the rant, needed to get it off my chest.

i've been a server, banquet server, caterer, busboy, owner's son.

[oakland barb]

Sorry Herbacidal, if I gave the impression that the service at the Four Seasons was poor. It was exemplary, as always. Very much my reason for staying there. Only bested in Vancouver by the time we stayed at the Metropolitan (which we have a few times) and left our young teenage kids at the hotel and took my mother to Villa del Lupo for dinner. My son (then age 13 ) wanted Chinese for dinner. The concierge told him the best restaurant didn't deliver but he (the concierge) would pick up whatever my kids wanted in his own car and bring it back- which he did, adding just the cost of the food to our room charge. That was beyond impressive.

As I work in the travel industry I can tell you service is the last frontier in hotels. You can only add so much thread count to the sheets so the service is what counts. Keeps me traveling to Four Seasons Hotels whenever I have the opportunity.

I expect a different level and quality of service in different kinds of restaurants. I never like incompetence but friendliness and sincerity go a long way to offset a lower level of professionalism in more casual restaurants.