Greek V Turkish Food

[peterpumkino]

Peter - The fish is fresh at the Greek restaurants in NYC,

When I say 'fresh' Steve I mean straight from the sea onto the plate as you would get in a beach area in Europe - you can really tell the difference. That's the only way to eat fish - it's fresh and that's wonderful.

When I lived in Key Largo on the Florida Keys I was amazed to find I couldn't get a whole fresh fish as I would get in Spain or Greece or Italy etc etc. Served whole, complete with head and tail, no sauces, not fried, no messing with it, just brought to the table and you debone it yourself. I asked a waitress and she opined that Americans don't like their fish to taste 'fishy' (honest to God, that's what she said). Could it be the potential lawsuits from diners swallowing bones?

Maybe it's just me but I didn't find the food in China not very consistent and generally not great. Maybe this could be yet another thread!

ps having said that the best fish I have ever eaten was in Apen, Colorado a couple of thousand miles inland! This was the baked cod at Matsuhita's (sp?) at Little Nell's- same ownership as Nobu's. That could be a thread too: Best Fish Meal I've Had In The World!

Edited February 25, 2003 by peterpumkino (log)

[Elissa]

I've recently eaten in two Turkish restaurants in NY that were both remarkably good, though not expensive. Does anyone here know the Turkish Kitchen or Galata?

[anil]

Wow, I take a few week off visiting and a great debate starts

Much of what is Turkish food is influenced by the era of the Ottomans -

As a center of trade and immigration through last two centuries and before, IST adopted everything of value and importance.

None of the Greek cities had that thing going - The immigration was also very limited. One look at Topakapi Palace's kitchen would give one an idea - Imagine thousands of pieces of chinese ceramics all devoted to the palace's kitchen. Hundreds of cooks, from all over the world cooked meals for the Sultanate -

Spice Bazzar, an amazing place (not in its prime glory - but still fascinating, working bazzar ) It allowed for turks to use and experiment with different herbs and spices.

Even in the most touristic places in Greece I've not seen vendors speak that many languages, as few in the spice bazzar - One in fact spoke three indian languages - Does business with South Asian spice boards and its ilk.

The diversity of restaurants from all over the world in Istanbul is substantial compared to those in Athens.

Yes, in the current era, turkish dishes one finds in Istanbul are more nuanced than say in Greece.

(....to be continued....)

Edited March 8, 2003 by anil (log)

[hollywood]

Come back. This was just getting really good.

[Gavin Jones]

These cuisines are just poor reflections of the high point of the Persian empire.

[VivreManger]

Without really examining the question, I have always felt that most of the great cuisine traditions of the world are ultimately reflections derived from lavish imperial court life. The French, the Chinese, and the Ottomans did in fact have such culinary cultures and the cuisines that have developed within each setting draw inspiration from that centuries-long tradition. I am not arguing that everything within Turkish, French, or Chinese cooking is a reflection of court cuisine or that countries without such a tradition, i.e. Italy, cannot produce great food, but rather that an imperial kitchen creates models for cooking, a lavishness and intricacy of preparation that creates a standard and raises the bar for all who follow, even after the empire has long disappeared.

In addition as Anil has persuasively argued, the role of great imperial capitals as entrepots, centers of world-girding cosmopolitan trade and exchange, supplies the diverse knowledge and ingredients that inspire imagination and experimentation in the kitchen.

I remember a meal in a simple Turkish restaurant more than twenty years ago, not far from Topkapi, near the old palace of the Ottoman grand vizier. The dish of the day was eggplant puree with baked lamb. The dish was simple, but profound in its combination of textures and colors. Purple eggplant was peeled and rendered white. A vegetable that can be bitter and tough was pureed into a creamy consistency, off-white in color. I have not studied Ottoman cooking, but the transformations involved to create this dish struck me as embodying in a simple and modest fashion, intricate lessons derived from the kitchens of the court.

A far better example of this is Tavuk Gogsu (the second g is a silent lengthener of the previous vowel -- the v is pronouced like a cross between u and w), beaten creamed chicken breast pudding. I posted a brief recipe of this a few days ago within a discussion of kazan dibi, bottom of the pot pudding -- I think it was in the general cooking forum.

I have often mused as to what inspired the inventors of this pudding into combining overcooked, mashed chicken breast with buffalo milk, sugar, and rice flour in this rich creamy confection. It would require a kitchen capable of experimentation, where the expectations of the patrons demanded constant imaginative innovation.

Much of Greek cooking -- the deserts in particular I would argue -- is derived from these Ottoman traditions. Musakka is in fact an Arabic word. Ottoman cooking combines central Asian traditions that spread eastward and westward -- bulkogi is the Korean variation on what became westward doner kebab -- with the Near Eastern and Mediterranean traditions. Persian and Indian rice and pomegranate dishes were alien to Central Asian Turkish spit-roasted techniques, but were combined as the Turks moved westward through Iran and India to Anatolia. Fish which is understandably a staple of the marine culture that is island Greece was also integrated into this Ottoman amalgam. On the other hand the pig-based cuisine of Serbia -- and Serbian converts to Islam were influential in Ottoman administration for centuries -- was barred from influencing the Ottomans because of religious prohibitions.

Thus Ottoman cooking represented a lavish synthesis of the distinct regional traditions -- central Asian, Greek, Arab, Persian, etc. which the Turks knew and integrated into their empire.

Unfortunately the break-down of the old empires has meant a certain loss of culinary cosmopolitanism, but great culinary tradiions are never completed abandoned.

[Yvette]

Being the culprit who started this thread (remember, way back in Spain I asked, "Am I the only person in the World who thinks that Greek cuisine is the only one that is better outside of the mother country than in") I do have a couple of comments.

I really  love having a plateful of prawns or some fish on a Greek island's moonlight bay, drinking Retsina with a lovely female companion. Honestly, for me there is nothing better. But how much of this is actually the food? Certainly the Retsina helps as does the company to say nothing of one of the best settings in the World ...........but the food? Lets face it even a half-baked chef faced with fresher-than-fresh fish has a real problem ruining it (that maybe explains, Steve, why you say the Greek food in NYC is not so good - simply said, the fish isn't fresh) but it's NOT the cuisine per se.

Furthermore the quality of meat in Greece (IMHO) is horrendous so ANY Greek food sampled outside of Greece must be superior as the main ingredient has to be better as it cannot get worse!

So my point, Tony, is whilst Greek food might not be great in the UK (actually, because of the quality of meat in the States, it's good in the U.S.) at least it's better than Greece itself when you take away the atmosphere, the Greek Island, the company, the bazouki player in the background, the Retsina, the old men playing Backgammon, the Ouzo, the Mama taking you into the kitchen and showing you the food etc etc.  (sounds a bit like "What have the Romans done for us apart from.........").  I've actually been in a place described above and the Moussakka was micro-waved!  But with the atmosphere, the drink and the pretty woman who gives a f*** about the food!!!!

As one who has not only lived in both Turkey and Greece and last year spent my hols touring Greece and gulleting in Turkey I think the food is far, far better in Turkey. Much more variety and the meat is much better. I admit it though, the coffee is identical - only the names are changed.

PS I do want to be clear in that I am referring to 'normal' restaurants around Greece and not food cooked at home.

I'd have to agree with you that the quality of ingredients contributes significantly to the quality of the end product and this this would have to influence people's opinion of Greek food wherever they experience it - we (two chefs of Greek background) had Greek restaurants in Australia for several years and were often complimented by Greeks saying our food was better than what they had recently experienced in Greece.

By the same token, there are lots of types of vegetables (especially leafy ones) that Greeks eat that are not unavailable in commercial quantities in Australia, so if your experience of Greek cuisine is restaurant-based you're not likely to get to try them, some dishes just don't keep well for service in a commercial setting, some dishes are way too intricate to produce on a large scale, and some ingredients are too damn expensive!

I agree with what you said about the setting, etc contributing to the whole dining experience - some of my most memorable meals in Greece have been more about the the company, the ouzo and the scenery than the grilled goat chops, salad and bread.

I wonder though about why people having this burning need to rate cuisines one over the other using a scale based on the 'refinement' of the dishes and/or the 'purity' of the culture. Greeks have an amazing history that includes contact with their neighbours, as do many cultural groups, and this is bound to have an effect on the food they eat. Does evolution of a cuisine render it of any less value?

In my opinion, Greek cuisine varies as much as French cuisine does. Do we question the origins of French dishes originating from areas close to the Spanish/German borders? And find me two Greeks who agree on the finer details of how to make one of the dishes they consider to be traditionally Greek...

Just a note...Greeks eat a number of kinds of bread other than pita so why do people think it not authentic to be served 'bread' in a Greek restaurant. I think it's interesting when people not of a particular culture dictate what's authentic within that culture's cuisine and what's not. I once had a heated dsicussion with a restaurant critic who commented in a revue of our restaurant that he didn't think serving potato with Greek food was very authentic...go to Greece and see if you don't get potatoes with meals - sometimes you even get potatoes with your rice!!

[Steve Plotnicki]

I wonder though about why people having this burning need to rate cuisines one over the other using a scale based on the 'refinement' of the dishes and/or the 'purity' of the culture.

Yvette - Thanks for your very nice post. The answer to your question is that it's the capitalist perspective and manner of doing things. Everything nice and ordered to reconcile with market valuation. That is why Michelin stars, Robert Parker ratings, and other things that give a clear and concise way of communicating quality are popular. What I might ask you in turn is, why are some people so resistant to that concept? Because saying Greek cuisine is inferior to Turkish cuisine is not a very remarkable statement. That's because when you are in the mood for Greek cuisine, well nothing will replace it and that is when all of the things ancillary to the cuisine like environment make a difference. But what does that have to do with an ackowldegment that Turkish cuisine incorporates finer techniques and ingredients. It is just a basis for discussion. In fact, quite often we actually learn something from these exercises.

[Tonyfinch]

I wonder though about why people having this burning need to rate cuisines one over the other using a scale based on the 'refinement' of the dishes and/or the 'purity' of the culture.

Yvette, most people have no "burning need " to do it. It's like picking your top ten pices of music or top ten books and arguing about it. It's a fun thing to do but ultimately not something anyone has a "burning need " to do unless they are getting paid to do it (food guides, for example, and they rank order restaurants, not cuisines) or unless someone is so insecure that they need to convince themselves that their preferences are "right" and, by definition, anyone else's alternatives are "wrong".

But that's their problem and you need not concern yourself with it.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Yvette, most people have no "burning need " to do it.

Actually most people do. Which is why the guide books that are the best sellers have rankings and ratings in them. Even the most popular newspaper criticism of restaurants has a star system which tries to create a nice, neat order to things.

[Tonyfinch]

Yvette. In London the Greek restaurant scene is woefully stagnant. One restaurant stands out, but the rest are mired in a sixties time warp and are serving sub standard formulaic food to an ever diminishing clientele. Why do you think this is? Do you have any thoughts on why Greek middle classes and business people do not seem to see food and restaurants as a ripe area for development away from the old Greek Cypriot model. I don't think the argument about non-availability of ingredients can apply to London

I believe that the best of the cuisine has never been showcased, at least in London restaurants. Why do you think the Greek entrepeneurial classes seem so uninterested in selling it?

Edited March 8, 2003 by Tonyfinch (log)

[peterpumkino]

I believe that the best of the cuisine has never been showcased, at least in London restaurants. Why do you think the Greek entrepeneurial classes seem so uninterested in selling it?

Because, Tony, I simply don't think there is a great cuisine in Greece when you take away the ouzo, the wonderful location, the plates etc - there's not much left. Your contention that there is one (count 'em, one) good Greek restaurant in London that is an example of great Greek food is like saying that Zaika is an example of great Indian food. (Simon I am NOT knocking Indian food!).

Great post Yvette but surely your comment that Greeks complimented your Greek food in Australia as better than in Greece is exactly the point I made when this thread started. I asked if I was the only one that thinks that Greek food is one of the cuisines that isactually better outside of it's native country?

Also I notice that no one (SP?) has addressed my previous question as to why you cannot get a fresh fish, broiled, and slapped, complete with bones and head, on the table in the US?

Edited March 9, 2003 by peterpumkino (log)

[Tonyfinch]

Because, Tony, I simply don't think there is a great cuisine in Greece

Well I never described it as "great cuisine" but there is definitely a cuisine there that is far more varied and interesting than is to be currently found in restaurants. I have two cookbooks that I picked up in Greece that are chock full of interesting recipes that have never made their way anywhere near a Greek menu in London. I just wonder why not.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Because, Tony, I simply don't think there is a great cuisine in Greece when you take away the ouzo, the wonderful location, the plates etc - there's not much left.

Kind of like Italian when you take away the vino .

[Elissa]

Beyoglu, the Turkish rest on 3rd in the 70's, is really quite good. Would anyone like to argue about this there? BTW: though it seems contrary to intuition, I haven't found any good wines from Turkey or Greece. Dull, muted spices; watery or brutal. Retsina is of course fun to drink on a hillside encrusted with white villas overlooking the Mediterranean, and it cuts through those light fries, fish and lemon flavors: but is it potable elsewhere?

[VivreManger]

Do you know if Beyoglu has tavuk gogsu -- the chicken breast rice milk pudding on the menu? I have yet to find it anyplace outside of sweetshops in Turkey.

[Elissa]

Thus Ottoman cooking represented a lavish synthesis of the distinct regional traditions -- central Asian, Greek, Arab, Persian, etc.  which the Turks knew and integrated into their empire. Unfortunately the break-down of the old empires has meant a certain loss of culinary cosmopolitanism, but great culinary tradiions are never completed abandoned.

Just called Giorgios (sp?, 212 650 0850, 1431 Third Ave) at Beyoglu and he said he does not make Taruk Gogsu, nor has anyone ever asked for it before. He has not seen it in NY either and though he could make it, his cuisine integrates Turkish with Greek and Armenian or Jewish.

Edited March 9, 2003 by lissome (log)

[peterpumkino]

I have two cookbooks that I picked up in Greece that are chock full of interesting recipes that have never made their way anywhere near a Greek menu in London. I just wonder why not.

Tony, I don't think they've made their way anywhere near a Greek menu in Greece! Alright, maybe some, maybe.

And as for SP's 'hilarious' comment on Italian cuisine I'll give it the credit it deserves (although it was quite funny).

[Tonyfinch]

I haven't found any good wines from Turkey or Greece. Dull, muted spices; watery or brutal.

Lissome, the Greek wine industry is undergoing a revolution at the moment. They've brought in a new appellation system and used EC money to invest heavily in technology and agricultural improvements and bring in outside expertise. New small high quality wineries are opening up and the bigger companies have committed themselves to driving up standards.

Turkish wines are still the pits.

[anil]

Also I notice that no one (SP?) has addressed my previous question as to why you cannot get a fresh fish, broiled, and slapped, complete with bones and head, on the table in the US?

If this is in context of the Greek Restaurants in NYC, I would hazzard a guess that diners are squimish about dealing with it. The new seafood restaurant Thalassa in Tribeca will serve you just that if you ask - As would Captain's Table in Astoria (this was eons ago I gather it has now closed or changed hands).

Also in many places a 1-1/2 ln lobster, simply steamed is served chopped and neatly placed - back in Maine, it was served whole.

Many of the 1st generation greeks in NY are also not quite versed in eating smelts- sauteed; when in season

[Steve Plotnicki]

Pumpkino - I'm not sure what you mean? There are lots of places in the U.S. where you can get a whole fish that has its head on and which hasn't been fileted.

Edited March 9, 2003 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

[anil]

Beyoglu, the Turkish rest on 3rd in the 70's, is really quite good. Would anyone like to argue about this there? BTW: though it seems contrary to intuition, I haven't found any good wines from Turkey or Greece. Dull, muted spices; watery or brutal. Retsina is of course fun to drink on a hillside encrusted with white villas overlooking the Mediterranean, and it cuts through those light fries, fish and lemon flavors: but is it potable elsewhere?

While mezes in Beyoglu (3rd & 81st) are excellent ,the main course have not kept up- I have noted that most turks at the upstair seating prefered to just get a bottle of Raki - hence little or no interest for turkish or other wines.

Pasha on Columbus &71st ?, on the other hand has a more balanced menu - A tad bid expensive.

Then there is Efendi on 55th & 2nd, which is a small turkish place - No reservation and quite crowded at times.

Edited March 9, 2003 by anil (log)

[peterpumkino]

Pumpkino - I'm not sure what you mean? There are lots of places in the U.S. where you can get a whole fish that has its head on and which hasn't been fileted.

In the Florida Keys (where I lived for four months) it's VERY difficult and, as I said on asking a waitress why, she replied that Americans don't want their fish tasting 'fishy'! She also said that Americans (in general) have no idea how to debone a fish and also find it repulsive with the head on - poor dears!

Avil I was referring to restaurants in general. For me there is nothing better than sitting by the Med (or Aegean) and getting a freshly caught fish which had just been broiled slapped on the plate head and tail, everything. No fancy sauces - at the very most a little oil (I refuse to say 'dribble'!) or just some lemon juice, and that's it! For me a much better meal than a Michelin 3-star.

Most Americans have never tasted that and it's a shame.

Edited March 10, 2003 by peterpumkino (log)

[oraklet]

These cuisines are just poor reflections of the high point of the Persian empire.

now the babylonians, they could cook.

[marlena spieler]

Having lived on the island of Crete and visited different parts of Greece and Cyprus, I am a huge enthusiast of Greek food and despair of those who distain it, and denigrate it in favour of Turkish food which is also delicous and varied and wonderful and I am a huge enthusiast of. Both cuisines are similar and different, share the vegetables and fruits that grow in the area, and share a Byzantine heritage. But they are also so very different from each other.........

I'd like to say, however, that i think The Real Greek is the most overrated greek restaurant in london. and the real greek souvlaki outpost expensive with very rude and un-knowledgable waiting staff.

Vrisaki, in North London is more real, and you'll be surrounded by greeks, lebanese, israelis, eygptians, etc instead of yuppies. go. eat. drink. break a few plates.