Greek V Turkish Food

[Jason Perlow]

I think there is a bias against complex spicing in Greek cusine when compared to Turkish, but that goes back thousands of years.

I've had different examples of Greek pastry -- and yes in Turkish cuisine there appears to be more variety, but to say they take less care with their ingredients and preparation and have less refined cuisine for that reason, well, is bullshit. Greece has some of the best olive oil in the world, and the best seafood. Maybe they subscribe to the less is more philosophy when it comes to complexity of the dishes.

[Steve Plotnicki]

You're talking about things that happened about 2500 years ago. I think Turkish and Greek cuisine are a bit more contemporary then that don't you think?

[Jason Perlow]

You're talking about things that happened about 2500 years ago. I think Turkish and Greek cuisine are a bit more contemporary then that don't you think?

Modern Greek cuisine still is heavily influenced by lot of stuff going back to Apecius, Steve.

[hollywood]

You're talking about things that happened about 2500 years ago. I think Turkish and Greek cuisine are a bit more contemporary then that don't you think?

Maybe not if they are doing it right.

[Jason Perlow]

Bullshit to what? You don't think Turkish food is more refined then Greek food or you don't think the reason is that Turkey had an aristocratic/monied class that drove a more refined cuisine?

Yes.

[g.johnson]

I actually think Plotnicki’s probably right about this. The Ottoman Empire was the Turkish Empire, run from Istanbul. I assume that the wealth of the empire flowed back to the Turkish aristocracy and could have helped foster a more elaborate aristocratic style of cooking.

[hollywood]

I actually think Plotnicki’s probably right about this. The Ottoman Empire was the Turkish Empire, run from Istanbul. I assume that the wealth of the empire flowed back to the Turkish aristocracy and could have helped foster a more elaborate aristocratic style of cooking.

Okay, but if the watchword is "contemporary," then how is that past wealth an influence?

[Jason Perlow]

I actually think Plotnicki’s probably right about this. The Ottoman Empire was the Turkish Empire, run from Istanbul. I assume that the wealth of the empire flowed back to the Turkish aristocracy and could have helped foster a more elaborate aristocratic style of cooking.

The Ottoman Empire is what became of the Roman Empire, which attributed much of its higher culture to the Greeks.

As you were saying?

[Steve Plotnicki]

What Glyn said.

I challenge you to name just one Greek dish that isn't just rustic peasant food. If you can name just one, I will buy you the Doner Kebab of your choice. This contest ends in 60 seconds.

[Jason Perlow]

What Glyn said.

I challenge you to name just one Greek dish that isn't just rustic peasant food.  If you can name just one, I will buy you the Doner Kebab of your choice. This contest ends in 60 seconds.

How exactly do you qualify rustic peasant food? Virtually all meat in Greek culture was reserved for the upper class. Its preferred to be served in simpler ways.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Times up. If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it.

[Jason Perlow]

Yeah, I am sure the Onassis family would appreciate you calling them peasants!

[g.johnson]

Okay, but if the watchword is "contemporary," then how is that past wealth an influence?

How long do cultural influences last? We need Balic on this, but I suspect that contemporary Greek and Turkish cooking looks little like Greek cooking in 500BC, whereas contemporary Turkish cuisine will be similar to that found at the end of the Ottoman empire, less that 100 years ago.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Sorry games over.

[Jason Perlow]

Sorry games over.

I agree, you can go pick up your toys and go home now.

[Priscilla]

Priscilla,

I'm not sure what the Turkish carrot dish is, but I wonder if it's related to the Tunisian dish Ommouk Houria (a carrot dip/salad with made with garlic and either coriander and harissa or mint and capers, or some combination), which definitely takes carrots 'to a new level' for me. The carrots are boiled, crushed and added to the dressing and, if my Tunisian friends are anything to go by, plenty of garlic and olive is added.

Priscilla and wgallois--havuc koftesi?  Havuc is Turkish for carrot I believe.  I've only had one version of it--fritters of carrot, apricot, pine nut served on a bed of coarse pistachio sauce.  Incredibly addictive.  Was your's a dip or spread?

For others interested, allow me to recommend a book I used "Timeless Tastes--Turkish Culinary Culture," about 67 Euros, beautifully illustrated and researched.

The carrot dish I had was a room-temp veg salad, one of a range available at the (now closed) restaurant. Not a dip, in the way of hummus or baba ganouj. Carrots sliced thinly on the bias, cooked not too quickly in olive oil with garlic, thick yogurt added. Salt. Really something, it was, especially with the Mrs. Owner's puffy flatbread.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Now I get to eat two doner kebabs for diner tonight by myself. But to show you what a sport I am, you can still have the doner kebab of your choice on me anytime you want. Just tell me where and when.

[Jason Perlow]

Now I get to eat two doner kebabs for diner tonight by myself. But to show you what a sport I am, you can still have the doner kebab of your choice on me anytime you want. Just tell me where and when.

Jersey. We have better ones here.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I'm not afraid of Jersey. I have E-Z Pass.

[vmilor]

The Ottoman-Turkish aristocracy of the last century was essentially pan European (through inter marriages) and very international in orientation. The dis-elitisation process has been in full swing in the country since 1946(transition to a multi-party system) but the refined and complex cuisine, to the extent it survived, owes very much to the Ottoman celebi(gentleman) tradition and cross pollination when young members of this class studied in France.

Best cooking in the country though is mostly executed by private chefs cooking in villas. We owe it to the Greeks that they are the ones who ventured to become the first restaurateurs, circa 1950-60, focusing esp. on seafood meze and fresh fish. I think they had more sensibility vis a vis seafood and handled it well. They were also very good in the art of serving.

[Fat Guy]

I've just gone through The Glorious Foods of Greece: Traditional Recipes from Islands, Cities, and Villages,

by Diane Kochilas, and quite aside from the topic of discussion here I was completely blown away by the scope of the book. I received a review copy awhile back. I was amazed then, but I put it aside and never did anything with it. This is a must-have cookbook for those who are interested in authoritative, definitive cookbooks.

Anyway . . . there's way too much in here to summarize. But if you click through to Amazon and you follow the "Look Inside" link and check out the excerpt pages (not the cover pages or indices, but the actual excerpt) you'll get a good taste of the geographic overview.

The rest of you can sort this topic out. I'm going to cook something from this book. "Quails in Bread," now that looks interesting. Wonder where I can get quail at 12:30am.

[vmilor]

Quail in rice pilaf (an Ottoman recipe) was a favorite dish of mine cooked by grandma. but she has passed away and I can not find it in any Turkish restaurant. If you see a recipe for this PLEASE post the source. By the way 12:30 is not quail but grappa time even if I am waking up at 5 a.m. tomorrow. Cheers.

[Steve Klc]

If you liked that book, as I did as well, you'll really be blown away by the quality and scope of Claudia Roden's The New Book of Middle Eastern Food. More relevant than ever with the rise of mezze.

Edit by Jason Perlow: Amazon Link

[Jaymes]

Sorry games over.

I agree, you can go pick up your toys and go home now.

I'll say one thing for you New Yorkers....

Y'all are a damn hard bunch of dogs to keep under the porch.

[Fat Guy]

I have and like the old version but I'll have a look at the updated one next time I'm at B&N. Thanks. I've also got the Wolfert and Helou books here but I'm too lazy to open them. Maybe tomorrow. Oh, the Periyali book is probably worth looking at too. This is developing into quite a pile.

(Edit that, Jason, ya bastard!)