Sourdough bread confession and attempted breakout.

[Norm Matthews]

I thought I had  been making sourdough bread for around forty years.  I thought.  Maybe I was fooling myself.  The recipe was called King Arthur Flour Rustic Sourdough bread.  It says it is sourdough bread and it is from King Arthur Flour for goodness sake.  But here is the the problem.  The ingredients are sourdough starter, flour, water, salt, and sugar and yeast.  Yes store bought yeast.  I read somewhere years ago that you can make sourdough starter using store bought yeast because it is a hybrid and cannot reproduce itself in its hybrid form but will revert back to its original wild yeast form. I had heard that when commercial bakeries made sourdough, they used the starter for flavor and regular yeast for dependability. Now I don't know if that is still true today as it might have been a while ago before fast rising yeast was developed.  I found conflicting opinions on whether or not that is cheating. If I have sinned, forgive me.  I want start doing more stuff with my sourdough starter besides  the same loaf I have made since forever. It  was easy, dependable and everyone, I mean everyone likes it. 

 

Now that sourdough has become popular, there is more information about it out there and also the recipes are easier to find.  So I started fermenting flour and water to get 100% wild yeast. I made three starters. One with whole wheat flour, one with AP flour and one with rye flour.  They all started and I grew them all for a while. I ended up keeping the rye starter but have been feeding it with AP flour since then, so now it is just white flour starter. 

 

In the pictures, the round loaf and the French bread loaf are the same sourdough recipes I have always used but without any yeast other that what was grown in the new starter. The recipe is one cup starter, 1 1/2 C. water, 2 teaspoons saltr, 1 Tablespoon sugar and about 5 cups of bread flour.  I say about because, since everything else was measured by volume, 5 cups isn't always exactly enough.  This time the dough was a little wetter and stickier than normal which means it had higher hydration and so the air bubbles are a little bigger than before.  The round loaf was baked in a preheated cast iron Dutch oven. 

 

The recipes for the sourdough apple fritter bread  and the sour dough pancakes with the notes and that came with them are at my blog. I am not sure I am allowed to post them here.  I think the fritter bread would be improved with the addition of chopped pecans. The blog address is at the bottom of the page.  

 

I welcome your thought and comments.

[MaryIsobel]

Jumped on sourdough bread during Covid. I've baked bread for years but had never done soudough. I like the taste of sourdough but honestly the babysitting got to me and now I normally just go with a classic french loaf, or a no knead boule made in a dutch oven or foccaicia. Not that I would ever turn down a loaf of sourdough - especially if it were enjoyed in San Fransisco. As a kid, when I was 9, we sailed from Vancouver to Southampton and stopped in San Fransisco. My mom was insistent that we found sourdough bread, so that and a few other things were are picnic before getting back on the ship.

[TdeV]

Norm, I've tried using sourdough, but with less success than you. These loaves all look delicious. So do the photos on your blog dated 02 September.

 

 

 

[Norm Matthews]

2 hours ago, TdeV said:

Norm, I've tried using sourdough, but with less success than you. These loaves all look delicious. So do the photos on your blog dated 02 September.

 

 

 

Thank you.  Your post made me realize that I forgot to post the recipes for today on the blog.  They are there now.

Edited October 1 by Norm Matthews (log)

[ElsieD]

I have had zero luck maintaining a sourdough starter.  I have tried a number of times with the same result.  I still make bread, but not with sourdough starter.  

[Norm Matthews]

@ElsieD Maybe you could try the recipe called King Arthur Flour Rustic Sourdough Bread.  It is very reliable and I didn't attempt to keep sourdough going in the last year. What I did was to mix equal amounts of water and flour with a two teaspoons of commercial yeast, feed it for two or three days then use that "aged yeast" in place of actual sourdough in the recipe.  It makes good bread.  I bake mine on a double French loaf pan and brush them with egg and sprinkle with sesame seeds just before they ot into the oven.PS that recipe also uses store bought yeast to assure a quick and good rise without relying on the sourdough or aged yeast for anything but flavor.

Edited October 2 by Norm Matthews (log)

[ElsieD]

57 minutes ago, Norm Matthews said:

@ElsieD Maybe you could try the recipe called King Arthur Flour Rustic Sourdough Bread.  It is very reliable and I didn't attempt to keep sourdough going in the last year. What I did was to mix equal amounts of water and flour with a two teaspoons of commercial yeast, feed it for two or three days then use that "aged yeast" in place of actual sourdough in the recipe.  It makes good bread.  I bake mine on a double French loaf pan and brush them with egg and sprinkle with sesame seeds just before they ot into the oven.PS that recipe also uses store bought yeast to assure a quick and good rise without relying on the sourdough or aged yeast for anything but flavor.

Thank you.  I've read the recipe and the sourdough starter instructions and will try it.  

[TdeV]

@ElsieD, the baguette pan from King Arthur fits in the Anova steam oven. I have some copper sheets which go under the pan which behave like a baking pan. I've made baguettes twice, not very successfully.

 

I'm looking to Norm to help me figure out how to do this right 🙃

[ElsieD]

14 minutes ago, TdeV said:

@ElsieD, the baguette pan from King Arthur fits in the Anova steam oven. I have some copper sheets which go under the pan which behave like a baking pan. I've made baguettes twice, not very successfully.

 

I'm looking to Norm to help me figure out how to do this right 🙃

I have a three loaf baguette pan and I just checked and it too fits in the Anova.  Are those copper sheet pans?

[Norm Matthews]

53 minutes ago, ElsieD said:

I have a three loaf baguette pan and I just checked and it too fits in the Anova.  Are those copper sheet pans?

Not copper. The bread pan have is steel. The pictured one was from King Arthur, but I bet you can find one on Amazon for less

[haresfur]

Bottom line: is there a difference in taste?

[Maison Rustique]

I was given a starter from a friend (she made it from scratch) who passed away a few years ago so it is special. With all the moving stuff, I did not have time to maintain it, so dried it. I'm anxious to re-hydrate and try it after I get moved.

[Norm Matthews]

@haresfur and others, I did not expect people to want to copy me. I expected a heated discussion calling me names and decrying my methods. I have read that some bakers age their yeast on a regular basis. It gives the bread it makes a more complex flavor. It is not real sourdough but to me it does resemble sourdough very much.  I did not mention the details of aging yeast but you should use 1 cup of dechlorinated water at room temperature, 1 1/2 cup flour and 2 tsp. yeast.  Every day pour out half and add back the amount of water and flour you discarded, and in three or four days you will have yeast aged enough to use in a sourdough recipe. If you use just flour and water, without yeast,  it will start to ferment on its own from natural wild yeast that is present everywhere, in about a week or two and you will have real sourdough starter.  Using commercial yeast is a quck start way and some people will tell you it isn't real sourdough but I can't tell much, if any difference and using it with the addition of store-bought yeast will give you a good tasting loaf of bread and be more predictable.  

 

@Maison Rustique The first sourdough I got in the mail was dehydrated and it revived well.  If you did not use high heat to dry it, it should revive and be as good as before. I kept it alive for sevral years and refrigerated without feeding it very often it when I did not plan to use it again for a while.  You can also freeze sourdough starter. Just don't get it hot. 

Edited October 2 by Norm Matthews (log)

[AlaMoi]

some of the best sourdough starter I've used . . . 7 day 'creation time' using buckwheat flour.

especially good twang/taste to the bread.

[ElsieD]

3 hours ago, Norm Matthews said:

I did not mention the details of aging yeast but you should use 1 cup of dechlorinated water at room temperature, 1 1/2 cup flour and 2 tsp. yeast.  Every day pour out half and add back the amount of water and flour you discarded, and in three or four days you will have yeast aged enough to use in a sourdough recipe. 

 

@Norm Matthews I was about to mix flour and water together to make starter as per KAF but I like the looks of your method for making starter.  2 questions - what king of flour do you use and why 1.5 cups of flour to 1 cup water vs. 1 cup flour to 1 cup water?  And i take it that you use instant yeast?

Edited October 2 by ElsieD
Added the last sentence (log)

[Norm Matthews]

@ElsieDKAF used those measurements by volume. I used those too until last month when I visited more recent sites to get some different recipes. They say to use equal parts by weight and those measures by volume are fairly equal by weight.  ( I don't imagine a pioneer woman in a sod hut on the prairie used a scale to get weight exactly down to the gram)   I like the consistency of that mix better.  The flour depends on your taste.  AlaMoi used buckwheat.  That sounds good.  I tend to use all purpose flour because it is neutral compared to others and you can use other flours in your recipe with it if you want something different. 

 

I did use instant or rapid rise yeast but now I am trying to develop my skills to handle making more varied recipes using just the starter.  In the future, if I need to make bread for an occasion and i absolutely need it done it a couple of hours, I will use the recipe with instant yeast added. I use the starter for the taste and the yeast for dependability.  Come to think of it, the two new recipes I tried, used starter and used baking soda and baking powder for the levening. Isn't that more or less the same thing?

Edited October 2 by Norm Matthews (log)

[Tropicalsenior]

@Norm Matthews I've created more starters than I can count and I've always had good luck just with flour and water but eventually I, too, neglect them and they die. I'm not a good babysitter for sourdough. Also, I have the disadvantage that I make all my bread in a small countertop oven. I have a large oven that will reach the high temperatures but because of the tropical heat here I don't like to use it.

I have also started using the preferment method and although it doesn't give me a full sourdough flavor it does make a big difference. The day before I make my bread I make a mixture of one cup white flour, one teaspoon yeast and about 3/4 of a cup of water. I usually make it about 18 hours before I am ready to bake. It may not be the best bread in town but I'm certainly happy with it.

This was today's result.

These are some rolls from last week.

[Norm Matthews]

@Tropicalsenior  Wow!  Your breads look very good.  I have not been able to get good slash marks on my only-sourdough starter breads.  I did not know the term was preferment.  I just called it aged yeast. A long time ago I read that commercial yeast cannot reproduce itself as the hybrid it was made, and will revert back to wild yeast if kept alive by repeated feedings.  I don't know if that is as true with newer instant yeast or not. When someone gets some sourdough starter from me, I tell them "it's not a pet, it's ok if it dies. It isn't hard to start another one.  I have not been in touch with other sourdough bakers before now.  I didn't realize there are so many of us.  Up to now it has just been trial and error for me.

[Tropicalsenior]

@Norm Matthews almost all of my bread baking has been trial and error. I've developed my own method of doing things and I don't have the technical know how to explain why it works but it does work for me. I'm happiest with the results that I get from the simplest bread recipes.

When I was trying to make sourdough bread, I came across a YouTube Channel called Baking with Jack that explains sourdough inside out. He's a little tough to take to begin with because he's pretty intense but he does have a lot of common sense advice on maintaining a sourdough starter and using it. For a beginner it's well worth watching the whole series. I also learned a lot from him about shaping bread and slashing it. I'll start you off with this video about sourdough myths.

I also found a good article about preferments that you might be interested in.

One thing that I have learned in my old age is that many home Bakers make a big mistake in the amount of yeast that they use. A lot of us think that if a little yeast will make it good, more yeast will make it better. It's just not true. The less yeast you use and the longer the rising time, the better the flavor and the better the texture of the bread. Bread baking is a game of patience. You have to let it do its own thing in its own time.

[Norm Matthews]

@Tropicalsenior Thank you. I will look at the videos later today

[Tropicalsenior]

On 10/1/2025 at 2:26 PM, MaryIsobel said:

I like the taste of sourdough but honestly the babysitting got to me

Maybe this video, 50 Ways to Kill Your Starter will give you some inspiration. Seems that it's a lot tougher than we think it is.

I found this when I cleaned my freezer today. It looks like I might be back in business. I thought that I had tucked some in there as a backup when my starter was going good but until now I couldn't find it.

[Norm Matthews]

@Tropicalsenior I enjoyed the first video a lot.  What I liked the most was number 7 "Sourdough should"  Like people telling you what sour should be or else it isn't "real" sourdough. I think @MaryIsobel should watch it too as it addresses "my sourdough died" as probably a mistaken diagnosis of the reality of the sourdough condition.  The one on preferments left me more confused about what it is and if it ever isn't something, if you know what I mean.  I want to keep the bake wth Jack so I can watch the other episodes..

[Tropicalsenior]

@Norm Matthews I'm glad that you enjoyed the video. His other videos are well worth watching. I subscribed to his channel years ago and I have learned a lot from watching them. He keeps things simple and explains why something works in language that isn't so technical that it goes right over the head of most home Cooks. It's good to pay particular attention to his videos on shaping bread and slashing.

I've learned that there is a small window when the bread has risen enough to slash. You don't want it to rise too much because you wanted to have enough to give it oven spring so that your slash opens deeply in the oven. I found giving it a good mist of water when I first put it in the oven and maybe 5 minutes later keeps the crust soft enough that it will continue to open up.

What I got from the article on preferment was that almost all the methods, biga, poolish, Masa Madre and sourdough combinations are all preferments. I think that I have used them all with varying results and success. Now, I prefer to just keep it simple and mix up flour, water, and a little yeast and leave it overnight. The next day when I make my bread I subtract the amount of those ingredients from the total amount of ingredients in the recipe. It hasn't failed me yet.