Deep-frying with unrefined oils

[benjamin163]

Hello all,

I was doing some very top line research into cooking oils but it's opened up rather a large can of worms so I thought I'd put the question out there. 

Are there any unrefined oils out there that can cope with deep frying?

I understand the need for an oil with a high smoke point and I understand that refined oils are the most stable when heated past 170 ad above.

But given that refinement seems such an awful process (bleaching, deodourising etc) I wondered if anyone had found an unrefined oil that could hold up to the task. eg unrefined palm oil seems like it's a robust alternative but I don't know if the taste or colour affects the food too much.

Any thoughts gratefully received.

[AlaMoi]

ghee is good to 252'C

[rotuts]

@benjamin163

 

'' I was doing some very top line research into cooking oils  ''

 

what did you find from that work ?

[liuzhou]

Lard

Beef fat

[Rickbern]

I thought it was an interesting question so I did some googling, which is another way of saying take this with a big grain of salt, but avocado oil is available unrefined. 
 

not much deep fat frying in my tiny kitchen ,

 

https://www.simplyrecipes.com/your-guide-to-avocado-oil-5196580#:~:text=Extra-virgin avocado oil retains,flavor is much more subtle.

[benjamin163]

10 hours ago, rotuts said:

@benjamin163

 

'' I was doing some very top line research into cooking oils  ''

 

what did you find from that work ?

here's what I've garnered...

Cooking fats come in two basic forms. Saturated fats and non saturated fats.

Saturated fats are solid at room temp and are mostly animal fats eg butter, beef dripping, lard etc.

Unsaturated fats are liquid at room temperature and are mostly from 'vegetable' matter (olives, corn, palm etc) or seeds such as sunflower.

These unsaturated fats have some health benefits. They help drive down cholestorol. But to make them workable in a kitchen for frying they need to go through a process which involves filtering, bleaching and deodourizing. If you want to use these oils again and again at high temperatures - for instance if you are cooking in a fast food restaurant - the processes the oil goes through are more and more astringent.

There are unsaturated fats available on the market that haven't been through this process because the ingredients which make them have been processed without extracting the oils from the seeds or vegetables using heat and chemicals. This is called cold filtering and the benefits are clear inasmuch as many nutrients remain in the oil and it doesn't have these nasties in it.

However, because they haven't been through this refinement, they usually have a much lower smoking point so aren't suitable for heavy duty frying.

So whilst these cold pressed oils (or 'virgin' or 'extra virgin' as they are often referred to) are brilliant for adding to salads or even indeed for rubbing onto skin (!), they become rancid when heated to temperatures that work for knocking up some onion bhajis or doing a bit of southern fried chicken. In fact from what I gather, the overheating of these oils again and again changes the molecular structure in such a way that all the perceived benefits of using an unsaturated fat disappear (I need to do some more digging here).

So I wondered if there was an unrefined non saturated fat that could be heated and still retain all the perceived health benefits.

Now then. It seems that, despite popular wisdom, unrefined olive oil can be heated to roughly 200c without smoking. This is pretty good for frying so I wonder why so many people say NEVER to fry with extra virgin olive oil. However, the taste is obviously extremely pronounced. This is in contrast to, say, a sunflower oil which has a neutral taste and is therefore better for frying things like a southern fried chicken breast or something. But whilst a refined sunflower oil can be heated to 250c happily, an unrefined one goes wrong past 107c. No good.

So my question was, has anyone successfully used an unrefined oil (ie one that hasn't had tons of chemicals used in the extraction) to fry their food successfully.

It seems avacoado oil can be heated unrefined to high temperatures. I havn't come across it though. Also palm oil. I have never used that either. Unrefined palm oil looks extremely red and it sounds like it has all sorts of gunk in it when it hasn't gone through the refinement process which I wonder if it makes unsuitable for cooking. 

The upshot of all this is I feel like the real health solution to the problem is not to eat deep fried food! But if, like me, you hanker after it every now and again, this is an unsatisfactory resolution. That's why I've started digging and put the question out there. I must say though that the little I have garnered is really worrying, especially if you are someone who likes fast food or processed food on an industrial scale. It seems like the oils used in these restaurants and factories might well be really awfully bad for us. I know that it's not exactly rocket science that too much fried food is bad for you. But the oils used on an industrial scale in particular almost don't seem like oil at all and it's amazign we don't know more about them given they are so prevalent in many people's diets. 

A lot of what I'm learning has come from a brilliant book called 'Swallow This - serving up the fast food industry's darkest secrets'. The whole book is brilliantly written and there is a whole section on oil which much of the above has come from. I have been in touch with Frymax to ask them some of these questions but have received no reply from them even though I went through the correct channels and was told someone would get back to me.

Anyway, I just want to enjoy my lovely fried food at home on a non industrial level and wondered if anyone has cracked the oil problem or if we just have to accept that refinement with all its nasty sounding side effects is the best way. 

On a side note it does amaze me that something perceived as so natural like oil for cooking goes through such an extreme process without us being any the wiser. Look at a bottle of veg oil, read the label. Absolutely no information about the process and the chemicals involved. It seems like refined oil is nowhere near as benign as it looks or sounds.

 

 

[benjamin163]

14 hours ago, AlaMoi said:

ghee is good to 252'C

Ooh you're so right. I love cooking with ghee. But I was wondering if there was a non saturated fat that could do the job as well as ghee can. 

 

[benjamin163]

8 hours ago, liuzhou said:

Lard

Beef fat

Thank you for the suggestions. Both are amazing for taste and performance but I am wondering if there is a non saturated fat which might work nearly as well.

On a side note, it seems that in the 'olden days' before we refined our oils on an industrial scale, beef fat is what all our fish and chips were cooked in. Can you imagine how delicious those fish and chips must have been? The stuff used now doesn't resemble oil as we know it in any way apparently. 

[benjamin163]

4 hours ago, Rickbern said:

I thought it was an interesting question so I did some googling, which is another way of saying take this with a big grain of salt, but avocado oil is available unrefined. 
 

not much deep fat frying in my tiny kitchen ,

 

https://www.simplyrecipes.com/your-guide-to-avocado-oil-5196580#:~:text=Extra-virgin avocado oil retains,flavor is much more subtle.

Thanks so much for your reply. My scant investigations have uncovered the same oil as an alternative.

Have you ever cooked with it? Does it have a pronounced taste? Is it prohibitively expensive?

I shall investigate. 

But I would say your approach of not doing much deep fat frying at all is the way forward, depressing as that sounds 😂

I don't do an awful lot myself but when I do I love it and I would love to know how I can do it in the most natural way possible. I shall try avacado oil and report back.

[liuzhou]

On 9/11/2024 at 4:42 PM, benjamin163 said:

Can you imagine how delicious those fish and chips must have been?

 

I don't have to imagine. Many of the better fish and chips places in the UK still use beef fat.

 

 

Edited September 16 by liuzhou (log)

[AlaMoi]

the obvious solution to the problem is a diet that is not 100% deep fried.

everything in moderation - using a refined oil now and then is not going to kill you.

 

btw, the advice of not using extra virgin for frying is because of cost and also...all the aroma&lipsmacking tasty stuff is destroyed by the heat.

costs a lot and brings nothing to the table....

 

I also spun a lot of wheels on 'the best' oil - many more variables than just the 'refined' issue.

there is no "one and only best answer" to all the health claims.

 

this is what I collected

225F.......    107C.......    Canola oil, unrefined
225F.......    107C.......    Flaxseed oil, unrefined
225F.......    107C.......    Safflower oil, unrefined
225F.......    107C.......    Sunflower oil, unrefined
320F.......    160C.......    Corn oil, unrefined
320F.......    160C.......    Sunflower oil - high-oleic, unrefined
320F.......    160C.......    Olive oil, extra virgin
320F.......    160C.......    Peanut oil, unrefined
320F.......    160C.......    Safflower oil, Semi-refined
320F.......    160C.......    Soy oil, unrefined
320F.......    160C.......    Walnut oil, unrefined
330F.......    165C.......    Hemp seed oil
350F.......    177C.......    Butter
350F.......    177C.......    Canola oil, Semi-refined
350F.......    177C.......    Coconut oil
350F.......    177C.......    Sesame oil, unrefined
350F.......    177C.......    Soy oil, Semi-refined
360F.......    182C.......    Vegetable shortening
370F.......    182C.......    Lard
390F.......    199C.......    Macadamia nut oil
400F.......    204C.......    Canola oil, Refined
400F.......    204C.......    Walnut oil, Semi-refined
405F.......    207C.......    Olive oil, High quality(low acidity) extra virgin
410F.......    210C.......    Sesame oil
420F.......    216C.......    Cottonseed oil
420F.......    216C.......    Grapeseed oil
420F.......    216C.......    Virgin olive oil
420F.......    216C.......    Almond oil
425/437F...     218C.......     Red Palm Oil, virgin
430F.......    221C.......    Hazelnut oil
440F.......    227C.......    Peanut oil
440F.......    227C.......    Sunflower oil
450F.......    232C.......    corn oil, Refined
450F.......    232C.......    Sunflower oil - high-oleic, Refined
450F.......    232C.......    Peanut oil, Refined
450F.......    232C.......    Safflower oil, Refined
450F.......    232C.......    Sesame oil, Semi-refined
450F.......    232C.......    Soy oil, Refined
450F.......    232C.......    Sunflower oil, Semi-refined
450F.......    232C.......    Coconut oil, Refined
460F.......    238C.......    Olive pomace oil
468F.......    242C.......    Olive oil, extra light
490F.......     254C.......     Rice Bran oil
495F.......    257C.......    Soybean oil
510F.......    266C.......    Safflower oil
520F.......    271C.......    Avocado oil

 

[haresfur]

It is weird that avocado oil is a specialty item here, only sold in small bottles and cost prohibitive for deep frying. We grow a lot of avocados and a lot are dumped in good years. Seems like a natural to produce more oil. 

 

I mainly fry in rice bran oil or grapeseed oil

[Rickbern]

Just read an article about this sugarcane oil, you may find it interesting. Kinda rich for my blood though 

 

https://www.zeroacre.com/page/zero-acre-cultured-oil#43038820499679

 

from the article:

 

Made from fermented South American sugar cane, the oil has a high smoke point (485 degrees Fahrenheit), is supposed to be less prone to oxidation than seed oils, with more stability so needs changing less often, enhancing the bottom line. It’s over 90 percent monounsaturated fat. It’s neutral, quite light and doesn’t produce greasy results. Coqodaq in Manhattan uses it for the rafts of chicken it fries. Swizzler in Washington, D.C., Stoa Bar in San Francisco and the private club 55 Seventy in Dallas are some other devotees. 

Edited September 16 by Rickbern (log)

[IndyRob]

On 9/11/2024 at 8:54 AM, AlaMoi said:

the obvious solution to the problem is a diet that is not 100% deep fried.

 

Bastard!