Brining, then drying, then marinating?

[KennethT]

Over on the Countertop Rotisserie forum, I decided to get a small inexpensive rotisserie, primarily to cook small birds for my wife and myself.  For the machine's maiden voyage, I was planning on doing kai yaang (thai grilled chicken) from Pok Pok as I've had it in the restaurant in NY many times and always enjoy it - it is very similar to some of the great grilled chickens I've had in Thailand...  Serious Eats put the recipe here, http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2013/11/andy-ricker-whole-roasted-chicken-game-hen-recipe-from-pok-pok-cookbook.html but I also have the book.

 

The recipe calls for brining the bird overnight, then stuffing, and air drying in the refrigerator for 12 hours.  I don't quite understand the purpose of this - I understand that letting it sit open in the refrigerator will help dry the skin - I used to do this with ducks and it worked great - but why brine beforehand?  I've always thought that most of the flavorings put in a brine don't really affect meat flavor very much - except for the salt... but am I off base?  Can it really add flavor and not just salt?  Would that flavor dissipate in the 12 hour drying session?

 

Then, after the bird is dried, it is marinated in soy/fish sauce/sugar for a couple hours.  Why do this if you just spent 12 hours trying to dry the skin?

 

If you're not going to overcook the bird, why brine in the first place?  And if you're going to marinate in a wet marinade for a couple hours, why take 12 hours to dry the skin beforehand?

[Martin Fisher]

46 minutes ago, KennethT said:

The recipe calls for brining the bird overnight, then stuffing, and air drying in the refrigerator for 12 hours.  I don't quite understand the purpose of this

 

My guess is, to better equalize the salt/sugar/flavor throughout the meat.

Having said that, you could opt for an equilibrium brine and pump the bird well—that would ensure faster brining and probably better distribution of flavor.

After brining, I dry the skin with a hair dryer that's specifically devoted to culinary purposes. 

 

Edited January 17, 2018 by DiggingDogFarm (log)

[Okanagancook]

Maybe he is after some textural changes with the brine then marinade.  

[FeChef]

why not just combine the brine and marinade and let it soak overnight, then let it dry in the fridge for 12 hours then cook it.

[btbyrd]

I checked the recipe in Pok Pok, and while it's more detailed (and comes with the story behind the dish) it doesn't explain the rationale behind the process. But from reading the recipe, I think some of the confusion may come from the "marinade" -- which is basically a mix of soy and fish sauce with a bit of sugar and water added in. This "marinade" is to be brushed onto the skin before the last round of drying in the fridge. Since it's brushed on as a surface treatment (to already dried out skin), I don't know that the final "marinade" process runs the risk of waterlogging the skin or undoing all you'd done in the the prior 12-hour drying step.

 

As for including flavors in the brine, it's true that most of the larger flavor particle can't penetrate into the interior of the meat very far, but the skin and the meat just underneath it will benefit. And the salt will still do its magic for the meat deeper down. Brining isn't just insurance against overcooking. It improves the flavor and texture of the final product, and helps the protein hold onto water as it cooks.

[KennethT]

Thanks @btbyrd for weighing in.  I have the Pok Pok book too - but I just posted what was available online so those who didn't could see it.  Once you've said it, it makes sense that a surface brushing shouldn't really undo 12 hours of drying - especially since it'll get a couple more hours of drying afterwards.  Last night, I made an equilibrium brine for my 1.2# poussin and about 4 cups of water in a ziplock bag to cover, thinking that the brine would probably affect the texture, if not flavor so much.  I didn't bother with the lemongrass since I didn't have it handy, and any store relatively close to me gouges me a $2 a stalk.  I'll use it for the stuffing, but not in the brine.  I did crush up a couple garlic cloves and some peppercorns though.  Personally, I don't think the flavorings of the brine are very essential since the chicken is dipped into a very flavorful sauce while eating - it's not typically eaten "naked", so subtle flavors would probably be lost.

[Captain]

I try to brine chicken in particular all the time.  Makes for moist meat. Especially if BBQing.  The only real important factor is salt & water.  Salt helps the water penetrate the meat, anything else is just value adding.

[Okanagancook]

Salt also changes the protein structure in the meat making it more tender.

[Duvel]

6 hours ago, Okanagancook said:

Salt also changes the protein structure in the meat making it more tender.

Not necessarily. More often that not salt firms up the meat ...

[KennethT]

At the end of the day, it worked quite well. Actually one of the tastiest birds we've had in a long time... Definitely worth the effort.

[Okanagancook]

On 2018-01-19 at 11:34 PM, Duvel said:

Not necessarily. More often that not salt firms up the meat ...

A longer treatment with salt may result in firmer meat but according to Harold McGee, page 155 On Food and Cooking, salt has two effects.  Moister meat and more tender......It disrupts the structure of the muscle filaments dissolving parts of the protein structure that supports the contracting filaments and can partly dissolve the filaments themselves so when cooked they can’t coagulate into normally dense aggregates, so the cooked meat seems more tender.

[FeChef]

4 hours ago, KennethT said:

At the end of the day, it worked quite well. Actually one of the tastiest birds we've had in a long time... Definitely worth the effort.

Hey, if it worked, why question it? Apparently somebody knows more then most of the posters in this thread, including me. I do like the idea of a soy sauce and sugar marinade, but i would consider that a glaze.