Technique: Egg Batter Dough – Problems with the making of...

[ThePieman]

Hi folks,

my question is technique oriented as I am badly in need of correction and/or instruction. I cannot find any workable recipe for, "Egg Batter Dough" that once fried has the external texture and internal features that I'm looking for, its really quite the mystery to me and has been for now close to 6 years. So, I've come here looking for help.

 

So...

1. a deep fried dough, a pastry if you will.

2. the dough is an egg batter dough.

3. external texture is crinkly due to frying not due to additional items rolled onto it, eg. semolina, or polenta.

4. the dough is approx. 4-5 mm thick after frying.

5. when cool it is hard and firm, i.e. it does not collapse as if entrapped air has escaped.

6. the dough is rolled, filled, sealed, and blanched in a deep fryer, or perhaps oven baked. 

 

What I've done so far.

a) tried various recipes from the web, to no avail.

b) take it back to absolute basics starting with a simple pasta dough (2 : 3 – flour : eggs)

c) modify this basic recipe by making a batter (2 : 1 – eggs : flour)

d) separate the whites and beat them to stiff peaks, fold in the yolks and flour to make a batter, then add the remaining flour to make the dough.

e) same as (d) but make a batter with the yolks and flour and fold the whites in.

f)  same as (e) but swap out one of the eggs for water – makes the most excellent airy batter for dipping and deep frying things, really, top shelf.

 

Results.

:- plain pasta dough is firm but does not have the external texture I'm looking for.

:- the egg batters became progressively more leavened, soft nice eating texture when hot, but collapsed when cold.

:- the egg and water produced better results for the external texture, but same problem with the softening of the dough on cooling.

 

What am I missing? What am I doing wrong? My next planned step is to lightly beat the whites before folding them into the batter, but don't fully understand what I'm doing, I feel, in order to know where to turn to next. Would love some help. Cheers and thanks for reading this far.

Edited October 10, 2016 by ThePieman
spelling, word substitution (log)

[Kerry Beal]

I'm assuming this dough is something you have encountered before and that is why you are after it. Can you show us the picture of a product that is encased in this dough to clarify what you are after? 

[ThePieman]

2 hours ago, Kerry Beal said:

Can you show us the picture of a product that is encased in this dough to clarify what you are after? 

I certainly could, but am not sure on the protocol.

 

The relevant products are the Chiko Roll and the Cornjack (I believe possibly rolled in semolina). Both are Simplot Products. Both are derided due to the "unhealthy" image. However, that being said, the technique of such a dough is of great interest to me. The above efforts with small modifications, have produced some very soft, enjoyable frying doughs in their own right and are well worth pursuing in and of themselves. The meringue batter, I read about in a post war cookery book, and eye openengly delightful, again in its own right. 

 

However, they are not my target goals, just very interesting tangents.

[Anna N]

http://www.chiko.com.au

[Kerry Beal]

Looks like an eggroll pastry - the kind that uses the egg in the pastry - perhaps try a few of those.

[ThePieman]

13 minutes ago, Kerry Beal said:

Looks like an eggroll pastry - the kind that uses the egg in the pastry - perhaps try a few of those.

Yes is does, to some extent.

 

However, after six years research, egg roll pastry doesn't have the same outside texture, nor does it have the same dough characteristics and structure, even though this dough was "invented" to be more robust that spring rolls back in the day. Many people do use spring roll wrappers for this purpose but, it's a bit like trying to substitute butter layered filo for puff pastry to make Hors d'oeuvre cups. It'll do, if you're not too fussy.  

 

But, making the Chiko Roll is not my end goal here, understanding the pastry is. By nailing the technique for the pastry, it doesn't matter in the end what gets wrapped inside it, it'll all be super tasty.

[robirdstx]

Just off the top of my head, maybe it does matter what is wrapped inside. Perhaps the inside ingredients affect the result on the wrapper.

[ThePieman]

 

1 hour ago, robirdstx said:

...maybe it does matter what is wrapped inside. Perhaps the inside ingredients affect the result on the wrapper.

 

That's a fair point. To give a comparison, the Chiko Roll contains a rather thick, non-juicy cabbage, barley, mutton and vegetable mix. It is soft, gummy, and pasty in texture. whereas the Corn Jack is a looser, creamed corn filling, that is moister, and less viscous as a filling. 

[Kerry Beal]

Can you give us an ingredient list from the packages?

[Kerry Beal]

It looks kind of bready - is there a clear seam on one side and is the folded over end clearly a part of the wrapper?

 

These stock photos make it look like it might be battered, wrapped then battered again before frying.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Kerry Beal (log)

[Kerry Beal]

I assume you saw this recipe? 

[ThePieman]

20 minutes ago, Kerry Beal said:

I assume you saw this recipe? 

Yeah, eh-hmmm... I wrote that. 

[Kerry Beal]

1 minute ago, ThePieman said:

Yeah, eh-hmmm... I wrote that. 

Well there you go - it seemed to suggest you already had the answer!

[ThePieman]

Not quite. The dough was quite, bready, which is not characteristic of the original Chiko Roll. Thus whilst the presentation is, "a" take on the Chiko Roll, however it is not a good take, as far as the dough goes. The filling was, for lack of a better word, goood.

 

As you search the web, you will run up against my past efforts, Baitlayer blog & Villatempest blog, (I don't think I'm spread further than that)  be that as it may, solo work is... solo work and I need help, that's why I'm here.

 

Australians know the Chiko Roll well. There have been a few, too few, good attempts at this, but nothing really successful and certainly nothing that focuses on the technique associated with the dough – its all about that mysterious filling... (bah, humbug, et al). 

 

Simply put this is a thickish, deep fried, firm dough that is not bread-like nor is it spring-roll-wrapper-like. It had a solid characteristic about it, insofar as it doesn't shrink/collapse on cooling and it has a moderately airy/spongey/puffed thickness that is slightly doughish on the inside and granularishly crispy on the outside.

 

The dough, really is the true mystery of this roll. 

 

Caveats. 

This was invented in 1950's Victoria, Australia, using basic kitchen equipment and knowhow of the time. but to be honest, its really got me beat.

Edited October 10, 2016 by ThePieman (log)

[ThePieman]

2 hours ago, Kerry Beal said:

Can you give us an ingredient list from the packages?

Ingredients List A: http://www.simplotfoodservice.com.au/Products.asp?ID=289

Ingredients List B: (Frank McEnroe bio.) http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/mcencroe-francis-gerald-frank-10946

2 hours ago, Kerry Beal said:

...is there a clear seam on one side and is the folded over end clearly a part of the wrapper?

 

Yes there is a seam. Its not double/multi-battered, It is rolled, basically, (think I saw once many years ago a youtube vid of an industrial process where they rolled, cut baked and fried some snack, but can't find it any more) and then the ends are "painted" in. I presume that it is an egg-wash and semolina paste that is used to seal the ends, due to the fact that on frying they usually darken more quickly than the rest of the roll.

 

I've postulated many methods for making these, but the most obvious method involved rolling the dough out with a 15cm pasta roller/machine. Why? thickness is easy to control, its fast, and the 15cm wide strips of dough roll up to around a 2" dia. roll which is cut to 20 cm lengths, funnily enough is about two handfulls, side by side.

 

Its noted that McEnroe used a sausage stuffer to form the filling. Two handfulls of filling would be the limit that any one person could hold at any one time; drop that on pastry cut to about the same length and you have a very human sized portion of dough and filling, for a snack.

Edited October 10, 2016 by ThePieman (log)

[Kerry Beal]

Are you getting the inside texture right - but just lacking the outside texture you are after? Funny how all the pictures make it look like they are bready.

[ThePieman]

no. the inside texture is critical, that is the major failure in this exercise. I've discovered, like many others, that a wet enough dough, will blister enough when deep fried, but it is the other elements that I'm not getting.

[Kerry Beal]

So is there anything else out there that has a similar inside texture that those of us on the other side of the world would recognize?

 

Have you ever come up with an inside texture that is right but the outside isn't? If so perhaps spraying with a mist of water before frying would get the blistery result you are after on the surface?

 

 

Edited October 10, 2016 by Kerry Beal (log)

[Lisa Shock]

Just because it was originally made one way doesn't mean it's currently made that way.

[ThePieman]

50 minutes ago, Lisa Shock said:

Just because it was originally made one way doesn't mean it's currently made that way.

Naturally.

[ThePieman]

1 hour ago, Kerry Beal said:

So is there anything else out there that has a similar inside texture that those of us on the other side of the world would recognise?

I'm not sure. This is seriously an Australian/New Zealand complication. The dough is special. What it is,I just don't know, but I'd like to

[Kerry Beal]

You'll need to send samples - LOL!

[Lisa Shock]

I looked at the images and some youtube videos. The corn one has a different casing, so, I am going to ignore that one for now.

 

The Chiko roll has an odd look. The end seem very thin, you can see vegetables through the translucent dough, while the long sides are much thicker. Without having one to take apart in person, I suspect that it is a frozen eggroll that is rolled up in a rectangle of dough, like a sausage roll, then deep fried.

 

http://www.cooksinfo.com/chiko-rolls

 

I am suspicious of the story about egg and flour being the main ingredients, after all, egg is not in the current ingredient list at all. They can be used in an enriched sweet yeast dough, a good example is cinnamon rolls. That said, there's no yeast here. But, there is sodium bicarbonate. There are egg-rich batters and doughs without yeast, starting on one end of the egg spectrum (low egg content) with pancakes, going through popovers and crepes (with a lot of egg). For baking powder type baked goods, the family this closest resembles, IMO is a biscuit dough, which would explain the animal fat, and the texture.

 

Does bisquick exist there? The cutaway photos really look like Bisquick biscuits. Make some of the cheapest, leanest biscuit dough you can with lard or shortening as the fat. (this is why I recommend Bisquick, you do NOT want a great, buttery buttermilk biscuit here) Roll it it out into a sheet about 4cm thick. Cut it into rectangles that are as wide as the length of some frozen eggrolls, and long enough to wrap once around. Wet the top of the dough rectangles lightly, so the dough will adhere, and wrap the eggrolls, ignoring the ends. Seal the seam down the length with water by pressing the dough together. (use egg wash if you need to) Deep fry.

[ThePieman]

8 hours ago, Lisa Shock said:

The Chiko roll has an odd look. The end seem very thin, you can see vegetables through the translucent dough, while the long sides are much thicker. 

Thanks Lisa for your thoughts, much appreciated. Yes it is an odd look. I have taken several apart in an attempt to understand it better. I will be posting my own Youtube video of my latest autopsy of one, soon.

 

The ends are not the same as the main dough. They appear to be a batter made with Semolina (moderately coarse wheat grits used often as a breakfast cereal, or in some Italian type dumplings; call it "Wheat Cereal") – quite possibly nothing more than semolina and egg, but as you say, egg is not in the current list of ingredients.

 

I've tried doughs using baking soda but was rather quite unsuccessful. The doughs after cooking turned out to be too bread-like and the flavour was just completely wrong. I believe the baking soda is used as an acidity regulator in the cooking of the cabbage, and must be listed since its a food additive.

 

The Corn Jack dough surface definitely has a different texture. Its more like sandpaper. This leads me to believe that after the dough is made, it is lightly rolled in Semolina.

 

Why Semolina? Because they don't list Polenta (corn meal of a similar coarseness) corn doesn't get a look-in anywhere. (well... maybe in the Corn Jack...)

Edited October 11, 2016 by ThePieman
added a link, changed some text. (log)

[ThePieman]

Analysing the latest ingredients, in my autopsy video,  has forced me to again, rethink this whole thing.

 

Serving Size is 162 g nom.

A rough guess at the percentages gives the following (note, these have not as yet been tested, only thought experimented):

 

Ingredients	g	%
*Wheat Flour	34,0	21
Cabbage	29,2	18
*Water	22,7	14
Cooked Pearl Barley	11,6	7,15
Carrot	11,5	7,1
Beef	11,4	7,05
*Animal Fat (beef)	11,3	7
Wheat Cereal	2,8	1,75
Celery	2,6	1,6
Onion	2,5	1,55
Green beans	2,4	1,5
Textured Soy Protein	2,2	1,35
Salt	2,5	1,52
Sugar	2,3	1,4
Sodium Bicarbonate	1,9	1,2
***HSP	1,8	1,1
Spices	3,6	2,2
White Pepper	0,2	0,1
Chilli	1,3	0,8
Cinnamon	1,1	0,7
Nutmeg	1,0	0,6
Lecithin	0,8	0,5
**Tartrazine (Yellow)	0,6	0,4
**Sunset Yellow	0,5	0,3
***MSG	0,2	0,1
Total	162,0

 

* Typical components of a pastry dough, 1st estimate based on 3:2:1 ratio

**Food Colourings, I am hazarding that they might be added to the pastry, rather than the filling. Substitution would be Tumeric, and perhaps a slight amount of red paprika

***Hydrolysed Vegetable (soy) protein is a flavour enhancer much like msg, I think we can safely I don't recall such items being added to pastry

We know of the spices, there is some chilli included and than normally spice mixes don't need to list ingredients if the total is less than 5%

Wheat Cereal is definitely used to cap off the ends of the tubes, and/or also to thicken the ingredient mix.

Bicarbonate of Soda is listed as an acidity regulator so I do not think it is a component of the pastry.

 

As previously mentioned there is no egg in the modern incarnation of the Chiko Roll. This begs the question, How is the dough made, formed up and handled in order to produce this result,  and how does this substantially differ to what might have been achieved using and egg batter dough, as history has it recorded?

 

I'm missing something, I know I'm missing something, but what? Something that't part of a process or preparatory methods that doesn't need to listed among the ingredients? What? It's makes me itch all over...