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ThePieman

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  1. Just toughing down... fried puff pastry? Not right, but promising. Same old, same old... textural issues. Rissoles were nice but.
  2. Hi folks, I appreciate your interest in this topic and my faltering steps in trying to understand it all. I also appreciate your input and comments. Through this dialogue I've been able to ask the right questions and find, what I think is, the right information needed to help unravel this dilemma (...all my problems have become dilemmas.) I'm currently in limbo with internet access so this'll be a quick one, but it has afforded me the chance to re-quiz my older books and I believe I've now identified the underlying cultural traditions that led to and informed the development of the Chiko Roll. Based on the evidence at hand, I can now say that there is a very long tradition of fried pastry dough in Australian cuisine, but by the time I was a lad, it was fast falling out of favour with home cooks. Thank you, one and all, for your assistance. I think this thread is probably at its natural closing point. So, I invite you to read all about it, the cultural traditions underpinning the development of the Australian Chiko Roll on my blog. When I develop the recipe further and complete a few more experiments, I'll post a new update and share the recipe. Cheers. "Veal Rissoles," from Australia's first published cookbook, 1864.
  3. Images: 1: Preparing to sheet a 15cm by 40 cm sheet of dough using kitchen wrap. The resultant sheet should be about 3-4mm thick. 2: Closeup of the texture, colour and appearance of the flash fried roll. 3: Autopsy shot to examine the thickness and doneness of the dough casing (filling not important, but being tasty is...) This image also shows that the roll indeed collapsed under its own weight and flattened out rather than maintain a more cylindrical appearance.
  4. Ok, what follows is the culmination of my endeavours thus far. There are still problems, so any thoughts or clarifications you can offer would be most welcome. Egg Batter Dough (Well… emulsified oil with lecithin dough, commercial Chiko Roll pastry dough) AP Flour 100%, Wheat Cereal (Semolina) 16%, Lecithin 2%, Salt 1.5% – Water 52%, Sunflower Oil 16% Method Wheat Cereal and Water was combined in a 1:2 ratio and set aside for 30 min. to soak and soften. Salt and Lecithin were added to the remaining water and mixed with a stick blender. To this the Oil was drizzled in and blended into an emulsion. To the emulsion was then combined with the flour to form a moderately firm dough (approx. 58% moisture content), after which the dough was set aside in the refrigerator for an hour to rest. The dough was then flattened out into a sheet, filled rolled up and deep fried for 20-30 seconds at around smoking point for the oil (approx. 440F/226°C). The roll was then visually evaluated for texture, strength and colour. Results Colour – pale biscuit Texture – crazed, rough, small blisters Strength – relatively stable, can be held in the hand, but lacked some crushing/holding resistance Discussion This dough, is still too soft, it doesn't stick to the bench or hands, but does leave an oily patch where ever it lays long enough. It has less moisture content than an egg pasta dough (3:2) but none of the structural strength properties. Unlike very short crust pie doughs (3:2:1), this emulsified oil (mayonaise) based dough is very, very soft and exhibits none of the structural characteristics. due to these issues, it is easy to roll out but hard to handle and work with as it does not retain a tube like shape after forming into a tube but collapses under its own weight. So far for the objective stuff, now for the conjectural side. I could certainly knead more flour into the dough; I have half of it left, weighing before and after thus knowing what I started with and finished adding to it ( I wonder, that might work… note to self, do this.) I don't understand why this dough is so soft. Is it the lecithin? Is it the oil? Is it the water? Is it the flour? All of, or none of, the above? Is it my method? Is it the ingredient ratios? I just don't know. If I add more flour and reduce the water content, will I still get the same textural response on frying the dough? These are the questions I'm wrestling with. Insights? Anyone? [Addendum: it appears that the oil is not emulsified into the dough as it weeps out after a period of time...]
  5. Interesting Wikipedia entry. Prompted me to look further afield and found this, History of Pasta.
  6. Oh, and an Italian connection, of sorts: Fried lasagna rolls, never heard of them before - fried pasta… who woulda thunkit?
  7. Ah Serendipity, don't you just love those little gifts of good fortune, realised after a mistake, that come every now and then? So today's report. Cooked semolina? Its a no go. Makes the dough too soft and the control of moisture content goes out the window. On top of this the subsequent dough when cooked? Nice as it is, is not the right texture, doughiness, yeah, the mouthfeel is all wrong. I think the next option is to just soak the semolina in water and add it to the dough mixture and stiffen the dough with more flour. I am now, more than ever convinced that it is simply a pasta dough with semolina added and then deep fried. Now, the serendipity bit. normally I fry these things at 180-190°C. Today I put the oil on, and then turned the heat down (lid on of course, by the time I got back to it, it was smoking hot, not livid, but smoking al the same. When I dropped the dough (wrapped around a beef sausage – the filling is not the issue here) very quickly it began to blister and texture in just the way I wanted. The answer to that question then? The texture is an artefact of deep frying. I now believe that the rolls after assembly are flash fried for (edit: 20-30 sec.) pale biscuit, i.e. not browned; in very hot oil to set the texture (commercially) then flash frozen for finishing off and colouring, at normal oil temperatures, in the chippie, on demand. I feel that the semolina is added to increase the surface area of the pastry dough and enhance the texture. Flash frying will texturise the surface along micro sites, but longer frying will cause significant blistering. I got some videos to edit, but I DO feel this is a significant move forward… I might of actually cracked it: la la la la la... … Just kidding. Technique-wise, the take home info from today's experiment is: a soft, pasta-like dough, wrapped around a filling, when deep-fried in very hot oil will blister and texturise on the surface. When I get the videos done, I'll append a link. Cheers! Its been an interesting and otherwise fruitful day.
  8. Interesting reference, so I looked it up. Its available via Modernist Pantry. http://www.modernistpantry.com/crisp-coat-uc.html When I read that it needs to be kept in motion to keep it in solution I immediately thought of corn starch. It turns out that its a modified corn starch. Yes it would give a crisper texture, like tempura. Which begs the question, Is the texture I'm looking for, a function of the dough's reaction to being immersed into hot oil? OR, is the texture built in, as part of the ingredients used to manufacture the dough? Originally, the dough was supposed to be an, "egg batter dough." What does that even mean? (In a 1950's Australian context?) I can't find any contemporary references to such a dough. 1940's-50's Australia (Victoria) was predominately Australian/British cookery with ethnic cuisine inroads from Chinese/Cantonese (goldfields), Greek, Italian, & post-War European migration. The roll was developed in direct response to Chinese Spring Rolls, which in Australia, grew or bloated into a similar sized 20cm long roll. Did this occur before the development of the Chiko Roll or in response to its popularity? I don't know and I'm not sure we'll ever know. What I do know is that the Chiko Roll and the Spring Roll are two very different beasts that share a similarity in shape only. The texture of a deep fried Spring Roll wrapper is very different to that of a Chiko Roll casing. I cannot find anything remotely like it. The modern, commercial version is a savoury, deep fried, unbreaded, dough that exhibits sand-like, surface textural features that look like tiny explosions/ruptures, that casually resembles breadcrumbs or polenta/semolina. We have French, British, possibly Italian, & Greek/Mediterranean culinary traditions to draw upon. I have looked at hot water pie dough, soda bread dough, pancake batter turned into dough, pasta dough, and variations on each of these themes. I have looked at rolling the dough in grits, in breadcrumbs, etc. The problem I feel is that I guess I've not had a systematic plan for approaching this challenge. In other words, until now, I've not articulated clearly the either or question above and how the target cuisines might inform answering that question. How's that for clarity? Thanks folks. btw., experimenting with making a egg batter past dough using soaked/cooked semolina as an ingredient. Will let you know how that turns out, in order to bring previous endeavours to a close.
  9. An interesting aside: deep fried Semolina… seems to be popular in Indian cuisine, here's a fusion recipe, the reason I present this is that I find the technique and texture interesting, however a batter would not be applicable to my application. Be that as it may, and having looked at the Brazilian mix, choux pastry, and polenta pastry, I think there is a convergence of ideas. Not yet sure where, but, still looking. My main Cooking references are dated, (AU)1934, (NZ)1938 and (AU)194-? so, these books are in the historical reference region that would be common knowledge for the inventor of this "egg batter dough." Its hard to accept that the guy came up with a novel, new, and previously unknown method of making essentially, deep fried pastry dough.Yet, there seems to be no historical record of anything that remotely resembles it – feels like I'm banging my head against a wall. It sure does feel good when I momentarily stop though…
  10. I really have to say thank you for your comment, its given me lots to look at and turned my attention towards Italian/Greek/Turkish – Semolina/Polenta pastry. I never knew such pastry existed! Don't you just love the diversity in our culinary world? So happy!
  11. I've not heard of this type of dough, what is it? Got a recipe? interesting point, I'm gonna have to look at this further. I'm also trying to work from a 1950's Australian context as well, so I'm not sure if this method may have been familiar to the creator of the roll, although it seems he was reasonably informed about Greek and Italian, as well as trad. Brit/Australian cooking. Is there a parallel that you're aware of that I ought to be exploring?
  12. This thread has been a hoot! Love the word, "sous-videiness." Honestly, I feel for the OP. Hype marketing can be really frustrating, especially if you happen to cook better than many of the restaurants you tend to visit. Sous Vide is an old technique, a commercial processing technique and has only recently come into Cheffy fashion. I daresay much of the main meals you eat on airplanes have been prepped sous vide. The upside of the cheffy interest is that the GP get to say, hey I wanna do that too, and all sorts of new kitchen toys come to the home dining room table. The only thing I really found provocative was the initial, "boil in the bag" reference but that was expertly handled by other posters. For me, there is a texture imparted to the final product that is characteristically, an element of sous-videiness. This is most noticeable in fish and, eggs, which many don't particularly like (texture, that is.) Many tenderer cuts of meat are also susceptible to over tenderising from being too long in the bath. Visually, I look for the tell-tale edge to edge uniform doneness of the meat, and lack of greyness around the edges for an indication of well applied technique. If something is meant to be tender, it should be tender, but not mushy. If its normally tough as boot-leather yet comes to the table fork tender with the taste and aroma still intact, and not like a piece of cardboard, then that is really treat-worthy. I'd recommend for the OP to experiment with the method, to get a greater hands on feel for the technique, so that they are better placed to appreciate a masterpiece, as well as identify roadkill. Lastly, pigs bladders and vacuum. (You don't always need a machine to apply a vacuum, there are other ways.) I do believe someone may have tried (been tried for?) that in the past, but very quickly discovered the unintended consequences of applying a vacuum to any sort of badder. Cheers.
  13. Latest Update. Emulsifying the Fat: Ok, so I mentioned, emulsifying the fat with either lecithin or egg yolk. Well, I prefer the lecithin method over egg yolk.Both make robust doughs, but the egg yolk dough is, more tender, softer, if you will, and moister (translate as gummy on the inside) which impacts cooking time and doneness. Wheat Cereal and Texture: I had previously tried to coat the roll in a light coating of Semolina (wheat cereal, auf Deutsch - Grieß) but the result was sandy rather than craggy and rough. So I thought lightly pressing the cereal into the dough and then covering ith a moist towel might help the cereal to soften and swell with the moisture. It did somewhat, but not enough. I also thought that with swelling, it was more likely to 'pop' when fried. With two trials, one, lightly dusted and the other actually pressed into the dough, I've found I liked the result better when pressed into the dough. This leads me to consider, that the wheat cereal is perhaps an actual component of the dough, i.e is is part of the mixture. This would also result in the semolina swelling and perhaps cause the resultant surface texture, as well as lend a bit more toothiness to the final cooked dough. I still have to try this. Clagginess/Doneness: Lastly, I've been using quite soft, moist doughs and feel this may be causing some of the problems with overall doneness of the final cooked dough. The original product is indeed, partially gummy when done, but not to the extent that my doughs have been. So here's the question? How does dough wetness impact the frying characteristics of a dough? Addendum, Images: Image 1 (img_9659.jpg) shows the dough covered with semolina and placed under a moist towel, the second one not yet covered. In the bowl is a paste of egg white and semolina (a bit too thick). Image 2 (IMG_9662.jpg) shows the filling I'm using to fill the rolls. Honest to goodness meat and veg, no junk food here. Image 3 (IMG_9667,jpg) shows the roll being fried. I used a tamale press, for convenience, this time round rather than the pasta roller. I think in the future, I'll stick with the pasta roller, it makes the ends and seams neater and easier to work with.
  14. Before blind baking, or before normal filling and baking?
  15. ThePieman

    Lufthansa Cocktail

    Me too. yeah, 30 something years ago I was just completing high school, and its a real challenge for me just to remember what the local hamburger tasted like. I ate plenty of them, but never drank a Lufthansa Cocktail. Had I been old enough and able to enough to fly Lufthansa, it would've only been a once off affair, so I can understand the nostalgia would definitely get in the way, unless of course it was truly exceptional. So exceptional, they felt the need to change it, twice. Recipe now in the Recipe collection.
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