Roast Beef: deli or sous vide

[rotuts]

FeChef, here raised an interesting point, at least for me :

 

http://forums.egullet.org/topic/137676-cooking-meat-in-a-pressure-cooker/

 

scroll down to what he says.

 

I never buy deli meats now that Ive been doing SV for quite a while.  Some time ago,

 

i went to Market Basket  ( a very interesting store for many reasons ) at 6 : 30 a sunday morning

 

and their deli Roast Beef  was on sale  so I ordered up 2 - 1/2 lbs packets.  I was also able to get

 

just out of the oven onion rolls, and had the tomatoes, lettuce, horseradish, mayo at hand

 

and made two spectacular sandwiches for Breakfast.

 

but FeChef raises an interesting point on deli 'roast beef'

 

For him SV “never has that "stretchy" pull to it.’

 

fair enough

 

looking at deli RB :  its a big slab of meat, probably Round, that's cooked some way so you get

 

a uniform deep red color through out.

 

Im just guessing, the ConAgraMarts must put these large single muscle groups individually

 

in some sort of moist environment that does not dry them out, yet give them their target

 

temp in the middle, and interesting enough through out.

 

a 'steam' or humid oven at close to the target temp ?

 

I also guessing as soon as the core temp get to the 'rare' temp

 

the item is chilled and sealed and sent off to the deli

 

Im wondering is what FeChef likes is that 'pull' ie the meat is not left for a second longer

 

the the target internal temp, therefore does not allow time  ( = $$$ ) for the beef to become

 

tender.  thus the mouth feel   when sliced extremely thin

 

a thicker cut might be too tough to enjoy.

 

so .......  you might reproduce this SV by just taking your meat out of the bath as soon as the

 

internal temp reaches your desired 'done ness'

 

why do this ?  you would need a mechanical slicer ...

 

but your would then not need to worry about 'tender-ness' as the slicer w

 

properly against the grain meat would take care of 'tought'

 

and the meat you might use  would be a lot tastier that 'Round'

Edited April 1, 2015 by rotuts (log)

[FeChef]

Some brands have more or less "elasticity" then others. Most "house brands" are more elastic then your "higher end" brands. I dont know if they use whole single muscle, or if they use meat glue or just press muscles together. There most certainly is some type of brine or solution that contains a preservative and probably is what contributes to the "elasticity" of the product. Either way, it doesn't change my opinion of what i find taste better for a particular food item. For example, if i want an open face roast beef with mashed potatoes and smothered with gravy, I want the "real" thing. But a hot or cold roast beef sandwich? I just prefer the Deli RB.

[rotuts]

nice

 

""  if i want an open face roast beef with mashed potatoes and smothered with gravy, I want the "real" thing ""

 

if you can  please define, for you  'real thing '

 

dont get me wrong , its always what 'one likes '

 

well Good !~

[FeChef]

I guess to me, the real thing is a beef roast i made at home and sliced myself. Anything else is a mystery.

[scubadoo97]

I've been doing SV BSCB weekly and slice them up for my son's lunches for the last two years. He likes it better than deli sliced chicken or turkey which is fine by me.

Edited April 1, 2015 by scubadoo97 (log)

[FeChef]

So back to topic, Do you maybe think cooking SV too long causes the meat to become too tender and thats why it loses elasticity? Maybe try smaller roasts for a shorter time just enough to bring to a medium rare tempurature? Or do you agree that the elasticity is most likely caused by a brine/solution or possibly meat glue/pressed muscles? I have tried many times but they were always large roasts that i have cooked for long periods of time between 12-24 hours. My brines were more like marinades and not really a brine/solution. They also never really got deep into the meat, maybe try injecting a low sodium solution and giving it time to equalize?

I was just at the grocery and the brand name Deli RB's were $13.99/lb

[gfweb]

I suspect that the elasticity comes from the brine they inject.

 

It'd be an interesting experiment.

[rotuts]

Ill have to ask at the deli.  good point

 

"""   a brine/solution or possibly meat glue/pressed muscles? ""

 

I didnt think they injected beef.  pork and poultry ( turkey ) for sure.  probably not skinless/boneless CkBr.

 

Pork is almost always 'glued'  ie ham   think about those hams-in-the-cans

 

most of the beef Ive seen in the deli is a single large muscle, probably the round.  Ill ask

 

round in the meat case is cut as a slab for might not work as an exp

 

I guess you could try an eye of the round, both whole muscle and deli cut

 

if you just figure out the time to get the center to you desired 'done-ness'   then chill and try

 

note it would not be pasteurized, but the center of carefully handled whole beef is sterile.  the outside would be OK

 

but "eat up" would be wise

 

and you need a hobart like slicer to get that meat thin.

 

texture aside  ( and texture is important )   the prices at the deli counter have gone through the roof !

 

the deli counter at my main store sells several types of turkey :  the 'usual'  come in one of those

 

cryovac bags.  its brined, and what you expect of 'deli' turkey.  their own 'home roast' turkey

 

its like turkey you might roast at home.  the bird was probably injected as usual as a whole bird

 

but roasted in the oven, not  "vac-cooked" or however they do those deli meats   

 

and turkey roll : these are clearly glued up bits.

 

it quite true the deli vac-cooked turkey, sliced thin is very moist   from probably both brine-injecions  and

 

vac-cooked so no moisture is lost    but it does not have big big turkey flavor

 

you get that w the home roast, but the HR is drier.

 

that's why SV turkey breast is so good and turkey flavor and moist.

 

Ill ask today

 

PS   a cut to try might be sirloin 'tips' but whole slab

 

its only about  1 1/2 thick, and as a slab will give you an easy cut-across-the-grain when SV just to your temp

 

might cost < 5 a lbs

Edited April 2, 2015 by rotuts (log)

[rotuts]

I stopped by my local higher-end chain : Roche Bros.

 

they had three 'roast beefs' in the deli:

 

their own Top Round  :  13.99 / lb   very uniform red color. ask how they do this :  in a central kitchen for their chain they though

 

they were cooked at a low temp.  there were no additives as far as they could tell.  im betting a 130 steam oven.  my guess

 

Deitz & Watson.  Cryovaced.  " London Broil Roast Beef :

 

http://dietzandwatson.com/products/london-broil-roast-beef/

 

packed with all sorts of add-ins   forgot the price note the celery seeds : read "MSG"  

 

( FD  i dont mind MSG ---  in moderation )

 

Angus Roast Beef 

 

http://dietzandwatson.com/products/premium-angus-roast-beef/

 

note : 'marinated'  but also says 'coated w sea salt ....'

 

the package in the store did not indicate any brine injection      $ 11.99

 

Thurmann's

 

http://www.thumanns.com/products_beef.html

 

they don't say how they do the various RB's  but note :  the london broil has 400 mg of sodium, and the Top Round has 150.

 

same price $ 11.99

 

if you cut the 'plainer' versions of these top rounds  'thick'  I bet they would be tougher than you would expect.

[gfweb]

There is a ton of salt in deli meats. Its why they taste so good, I think, compared to home versions.

 

Of all the meats I make at home, the only one that tastes like the deli version is the corned beef, which has lots of NaCl.

 

My smoked turkey breast is great, but it doesn't taste like the deli version because it has minimal salt added.

[FeChef]

I wonder what the sodium percent for a brine solution would be to equal the sodium content listed on some of these RB's. I am terrible at figuring stuff like that out. You have to also account for weight loss after cooking.

[rotuts]

if you do  " 130 - sealed bag " which might be how they cook these RB's   you will not get much weight loss

 

unless the salt, either 'massaged' on the surface   ( less loss ) or brined ( more loss )

 

when I do my sirloin tips  ( full slab if I can get it, or 'horse-shoe' tied if the cut the ST into 1 " cuts " )

 

Ill post a pic soon, its "" Whats for Dinner ""

 

Id take the 150 mg sodium and figure out what 'beef plain' sodium is

 

and now, Ive got a Jones for a Slicer !

 

FC:   

[FeChef]

Im thinking i might try an injection solution of MSG that equals the sodium percentage of commercial Deli RB's. It has to taste good. Please spare me the unproven health risks if anyone reading has an issue with MSG.

 

Anyway, I have a single needle injector but i am considering buying a manual injector with a row of thin needles. Does anyone recommend one?

[HowardLi]

Don't deli meats usually have that salt-cured type of texture? Kind of like a ham vs a pork roast.

[rotuts]

not the Roast Beef.

 

Its just Round with or without injection, then maybe some salt as an external massage if no injections.

 

I think what they are selling for $ 14.00/lbs is the use of their Hobart slicer so you get thin slices

 

this is not a criticism  in any way.

 

as FeChef has suggested, there is a bit of texture to these cuts.

 

and all the flavor for that  4 star sandwich really come from the fresh bead, and all the Add-Ons.

[rotuts]

FeChef :  just use the single  several times.  you could also add various flavors :

 

garlic, thyme etc

 

and become a Local Billion-air  by your own flavor profile !

 

"" back when ""  i used a single injection method for flavored oils  

 

I might try that again.

[FeChef]

Well the D&W you listed above has MSG, so thats a dead give away that its either submerged in a brine solution of salt, and msg or injected. If i had to guess i would say injected because it would take atleast a week or two to brine through and through a large roast.

 

Im going to shop around and try and find a good deal on either round or a whole sirloin tip. I plan to inject between 1-2% sodium from MSG and let it equalize for a day or two.

 

The MSG i have says 1g contains 160mg of sodium. Its going to take alot of MSG to reach 1-2% solution.

[rotuts]

you might be over doing it if you choose to get all your sodium from MSG

 

if you get a whole ST  cut it in 1/2 with the grain  it will give you two hunks of meat to experiment on and are easier to bag

 

that's what I do w whole ST's

[btbyrd]

you might be over doing it if you choose to get all your sodium from MSG

 

 

Totally. MSG has 1/3 the sodium as table salt, so you'd be adding a huge amount to your brine and it would taste awful. Modernist Cuisine suggests that MSG be added to brines at a concentration equal to 10% of the amount of salt being added. (p. 3:160)

 

Well the D&W you listed above has MSG, so thats a dead give away that its either submerged in a brine solution of salt, and msg or injected.

 

Neither of the D&W listed (the Angus Roast beef or the London Broil) have MSG added. And certainly not in the massive quantities you're contemplating.

 

packed with all sorts of add-ins   forgot the price note the celery seeds : read "MSG"  

 

( FD  i dont mind MSG ---  in moderation )

 

Celery seed is a natural source of sodium nitrite and is not especially rich in glutamate. Even so, the amount of celery seed used on roast beef isn't going to supply a large dose of nitrites unless they're using a celery extract (and they don't appear to be doing that because it's not a cured product). Celery seed ≠ MSG.

Edited April 4, 2015 by btbyrd (log)

[rotuts]

correct.   

[FeChef]

Totally. MSG has 1/3 the sodium as table salt, so you'd be adding a huge amount to your brine and it would taste awful. Modernist Cuisine suggests that MSG be added to brines at a concentration equal to 10% of the amount of salt being added. (p. 3:160)

 

 

Neither of the D&W listed (the Angus Roast beef or the London Broil) have MSG added. And certainly not in the massive quantities you're contemplating.

 

 

Celery seed is a natural source of sodium nitrite and is not especially rich in glutamate. Even so, the amount of celery seed used on roast beef isn't going to supply a large dose of nitrites unless they're using a celery extract (and they don't appear to be doing that because it's not a cured product). Celery seed ≠ MSG.

I misunderstood Rotuts post on MSG and thought he said there was MSG listed. Good to know the recommended MSG levels in brines. I will have to figure out how much msg and salt to equal 1-2% sodium. Again, i am terrible at figuring this stuff out. About the celery seed, are you saying its a natural preservative? This would not cause the meat to turn pink like corned beef?

 

Also, do you have any theory on what would cause Deli RB to have a somewhat stretchable texture? I also noticed on some ends i had bought a few times the muscle seems very tight.

[rotuts]

Of course, I know nothing about it, but ...............

 

consider slicing your Meats   with the grain  so you have somewhat smaller pieces. 

 

then do what you want with them re  sodium etc

 

But  :  chose a low SV temp   Ill suggest 130.00001

 

take those Meats out when you think the center gets to the temp you are looking for.

 

they may or may not be pasteurized   

 

but 'Under Timing" tough cuts might be what your are looking for in terms of tecture.

 

BTW  hope you become a Serious Student of Sirloin "tips' as full slab.

 

very very tasty and can be Stuffed ?

 

On Sale, of course.

[btbyrd]

About the celery seed, are you saying its a natural preservative? This would not cause the meat to turn pink like corned beef?

 

Also, do you have any theory on what would cause Deli RB to have a somewhat stretchable texture? I also noticed on some ends i had bought a few times the muscle seems very tight.

 

The amount of celery seed used for flavoring that roast beef isn't high enough to provide the nitrite levels required for curing. It's just a flavor enhancer. But celery extract is widely used in the cured meats industry for that purpose. All of the "uncured" or "nitrite/nitrate-free" bacon on the market is actually cured and actually contains nitrites. When you read the fine print, they specify that it contains no nitrites "except for those naturally occurring in celery." They basically make a concentrated celery extract and use that in place of Instacure. But it's the exact same thing, just made a different way.

 

Deli roast beef has that texture because it's brined. At high enough concentrations, salt begins to alter the texture of meat (in addition to increasing its water-holding capacity). Modernist Cuisine notes that:

 

"... flesh begins to cure when the salinity rises above 2%. Above this threshold, charged ions from the salt destabilize and unravel various proteins within muscle fibers. Over time (and faster at higher concentrations), these unfolded proteins become entangled and form a gel that gives cured meats and seafood their characteristic firm and chewy texture. This is not altogether different from what cooking with heat does to proteins.

Brined foods that are cooked have a telltale texture because the combination of salt and heat creates a firmer, more elastic gel than heating does alone. Indeed, part of the secret to getting a good result that isn't too firm and chewy is to avoid overdosing the salt when brining." (p.3:154)

 

The characteristic "stretchy" texture that deli roast beef has can be attributed to the elastic protein gel that forms during the brining and cooking process.

Edited April 4, 2015 by btbyrd (log)

[FeChef]

Nice man, thanks for posting that. It explains alot. It looks like i will need to use 2-3% sodium solution to achieve that elastic texture. My only concern with the higher sodium level is ending up with a roast that taste more like corned beef then roast beef. I am wondering if using beef stock in place of water will benefit?

[FeChef]

I bought a 2 1/2 lb bottom round roast to test with today. After trimmed up it weighed 875g. I added 700g water to cover, 24g kosher salt, and 6g MSG. I am not sure what sodium percent that is exactly, but i injected the solution while in the container submerged just to speed up the brine time.Tomorrow around noon will be 24 hours in the brine and should equalize by then. I figure 6 hours at 131.5F should be enough to pasteurize and cook all way through. I think the highest spot is 3 inches.

Edited April 6, 2015 by FeChef (log)