Ground Bacon/Beef Burger – Tips?

[Tri2Cook]

Have you tried pre-cooking the bacon before mixing it into the ground beef?

 

Mixing cooked bacon into raw beef may sound daft, but it would remove the moisture (and any pathogens you mighte be worried about) from the equation, giving you intensified flavour, and better control over the outcome, since the bacon would not be undergoing significant further changes as the burger cooks (e.g. giving off water, which may loosen the texture); you could focus entirely on the way the beef cooks, since the bacon would be taken care of.

 

He's pre-cooking the bacon to 150 F according to his previous post. I still think that's the primary cause of his cohesion problem, 40% of the mix being pre-cooked meat.

[Mjx]

 

He's pre-cooking the bacon to 150 F according to his previous post. I still think that's the primary cause of his cohesion problem, 40% of the mix being pre-cooked meat.

 

I did  see that, but, unless I misunderstood, that's the full slab of bacon, in which case there should still be a decent amount of moisture left behind. When the bacon is mixed into the beef and heated again, it would almost certainly begin to give off some of that residual moisture, and any remaining fat would begin to melt (from the description, there wouldn't be much left, but it still may be enough to have an effect when it melts), and the entire beef patty would begin to lose some of its cohesiveness.

 

What I meant (and definitely should have specified) was to fry the bacon before adding it to the beef, which would concentrate it quite a bit, and get rid of the moisture so that it would behave more stably in the burgers.

 

I've added fried bacon to frikadeller, and the result has been really good, very bacony. I also add a bit of gelatin to the mix, because I can't use bread crumbs (I do use a very small amount of rolled millet), but I think that might give a slightly off texture to a burger.

[Tatoosh]

CatPoet - I definitely will try smoked fat from our cured pork chops in the future.  I will also try using a pork loin bacon (aka Canadian bacon) when I make some next month.  That should allow me to be much more precise on my fat to lean ratio.  But it will be a smaller test batch.  My wife, who has pretty amazing taste buds (among other things) really had a problem with the bread crumbs in the mix.  So those are now off the approaches we are experimenting with. But thank you for the idea and your info.  We have had some requests for a meatloaf and that may bring them back at some point.

Mx & Tri2Cook - I heat finish my bacon to 150F internal for food safety.  That is not a fully cooked bacon and I doubt anyone would eat it without further cooking.  In terms of using cooked meat, I had been warned away from using cooked meat in sausages and was applying that to my burger project as well.  But nothing is carved in stone and I'll try different approaches to get that final product just the way I want it.  The double grind really improved texture and I got some very positive comments about the "mouth flee' of the burger: easy to bite and chew.

So now it is double grind, a certain amount of salt added, testing with both cooked and uncooked (but heat finished) bacon, and the fat/loin approach for more precise amounts of fat to lean control.  As I mentioned previously, I want that big bang of flavor - some ketchup and mustard and it had an almost Kansas City BBQ flavor.

We are doing Serious Eats "Melty Cheese Slices" using Australian cheddar when we can get it and American cheddar otherwise.  They provide a nice flavor boost and a great visual with the way the slices melt over the burger.  Then our own "Bread and Butter" pickles for those that want them.  The only thing we are grabbing off the grocery shelf (besides condiments) are the buns and even that may change.   Slowly but surely we are working toward a pretty darn good result courtesy of all of you.  

 

Edited August 26, 2014 by Tatoosh (log)

[Tri2Cook]

Mx & Tri2Cook - I heat finish my bacon to 150F internal for food safety.  That is not a fully cooked bacon and I doubt anyone would eat it without further cooking.

150F meat is cooked. Maybe not cooked to some people's preference, but cooked. Cook a hunk of beef to 150F internal, run it through your grinder and try to make a burger patty with it. You'll then see what I'm getting at.

 

[rosik929]

I am not sure why your patties fall apart, perhaps they are too salty, or the bacon releases a lot of grease and liquid during the frying process?  I agree with MJX (senior host) - cooking the bacon before adding it to the hamburger mixture may remedy this quite a bit.  Frying the hamburger mixture in the leftover bacon fat could also help impart some of the bacon flavor to the hamburger as it cooks (some of this flavor may have been lost due to the bacon having already been cooked before adding to the hamburger mixture).   I am not sure if adding any extra ingredients would help - herbs may help, but they may also alter the flavor quite a bit. 

 

Sour cream does tend to help produce a firmer hamburger patty; Hidden Valley Ranch salad dressing (dry mix, not the bottled version) also helps as well, although it adds a lot of flavor on its own to the hamburger.

[Tatoosh]

150F meat is cooked. Maybe not cooked to some people's preference, but cooked. Cook a hunk of beef to 150F internal, run it through your grinder and try to make a burger patty with it. You'll then see what I'm getting at.

 

 

Tri2Cook - I don't know why bacon seems to run by different rules for me, but it does.  I routinely cook pork loin and chops to 145F/150F and serve without a qualm.  My bacon is heat finished to the same temperatures and not fit for consumption until it spends more time in a pan or oven.  I do render some fat when I heat it to that finishing temp but not all by any means and the fat is still fairly white and needs further cooking to be palatable. Your raise an excellent point that I don't have a good answer to.  

 

I am not sure why your patties fall apart, perhaps they are too salty, or the bacon releases a lot of grease and liquid during the frying process?  I agree with MJX (senior host) - cooking the bacon before adding it to the hamburger mixture may remedy this quite a bit.  Frying the hamburger mixture in the leftover bacon fat could also help impart some of the bacon flavor to the hamburger as it cooks (some of this flavor may have been lost due to the bacon having already been cooked before adding to the hamburger mixture).   I am not sure if adding any extra ingredients would help - herbs may help, but they may also alter the flavor quite a bit. 

 

Sour cream does tend to help produce a firmer hamburger patty; Hidden Valley Ranch salad dressing (dry mix, not the bottled version) also helps as well, although it adds a lot of flavor on its own to the hamburger.

resik929 - My first attempt resulted in a product that definitely needed salt.  While my bacon is salty after the dry cure, I soak it for half an hour to help reduce that saltiness to the desired level.  I have reduced saltiness until it was nigh on indiscernible but the bacon's flavor suffered so we worked on it to get the balance we found best.  However, it does not add enough salt when ground and mixed with the beef.  I might consider not soaking bacon that is bound for the grinder down the road.  

Our double grind and the addition of a small amount of extra salt has the texture and saltiness about where I want it.  I need to do the third attempt without the bread crumbs, liquid, and eggs to see if cohesion degrades again. I probably won't add any herbs or spices to it at this point.  That may happen down the road but right now i'm focused on getting that big bacon flavor in a burger with the right texture and cohesiveness.  We may explore "juicy Lucy" or "stuffed burgers" too - but my signature burger will be the bacon burger that features my own bacon in the mix.  I do much appreciate your comments and they give me food for thought.  Particularly the sour cream burger - another adventure awaits there, I'm sure!  

Edited August 27, 2014 by Tatoosh (log)

[Tri2Cook]

Tri2Cook - I don't know why bacon seems to run by different rules for me, but it does.  I routinely cook pork loin and chops to 145F/150F and serve without a qualm.  My bacon is heat finished to the same temperatures and not fit for consumption until it spends more time in a pan or oven.  I do render some fat when I heat it to that finishing temp but not all by any means and the fat is still fairly white and needs further cooking to be palatable. Your raise an excellent point that I don't have a good answer to. 

I think the communication problem is that we're focusing on different things. I'm not addressing food safety, I'm addressing what I think is the reason behind your burger cohesion issues. I think 40% cooked meat in the mix just isn't allowing for a good bind. Eggs, etc. would very likely help with that, they're just things I don't like to put in my burgers. If you don't mind them in yours, that's completely fine. I was just trying to help track down the source of the problem in case you prefer not to add additional binders.

 

[lordratner]

If you're worried about adding too much salt, here are a couple suggestions:

 

Find the amount of salt you are comfortable adding, and start playing around with timing. Add the salt to the ground mixture and ensure good dispersion. Form into patties and let sit for one hour. The salt is drawing out myosin, which will make the meat stick together. Cook after the hour has past, and evaluate cohesion.

 

If it's not cohesive enough, increase the time (this is in the fridge for food safety considerations) to allow more myosin release. This way you aren't changing the salt content. When you get the cohesion you're looking for, record that sitting-time.

 

Also, I'd look into using table salt rather than kosher or other large-grained salts. The smaller grains will make it easier to spread smaller amounts of salt throughout the entire mince without over mixing. 

[Tatoosh]

Tri2Cook - I understand and you may be right.  I was thinking more about the appeal of the final product versus food safety specifically.  I will think about the egg, though I am hesitant after my wife's reaction to the bread crumbs.  I will work with the grind and salt approach first.

 

lordratner - What do you think of adding salt between the first and second grind and refrigerating for at least an hour or longer?  Or grind, salt and let sit overnight?  Would the salt be better to add after the second grind?  and let it develop "cohesion" from that point. Then form into patties.  I've been running 5 ouncers but will increase to 6 ounce so they fit the buns better.  And maintaining a thickness of 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch.  My wife prefers that we sous vide them for a thorough cook throughout prior to finishing on a griddle.  We did a semi-sous vide on the last few patties and that  seemed to work pretty well.  

 

resik929 - For my straight beef burgers, I had been adding a bit of Worcestershire sauce, plus onion and garlic powder.  So "adulterating" them is something I'm quite comfy with.  We don't have the handy packets of dry dressing mix here in the Philippines so often.  I am going to bring over some SACO Cultured Buttermilk powder and I wonder if a couple of tablespoons of that might do per kilo?  For a beef patty, i mean - not sure how it would taste in the bacon burger mix, but we can find out.  It takes a couple of months to get special order items here plus a pretty fair amount of shipping cost so the buttermilk powder will be awhile before it arrives.    

[FeChef]

Dude, get some Transglutaminase and call it a night. Will solve all your binding issues and will add no added flavor. No need for eggs, bread crumbs, salt..ect..ect. You can add as much cooked bacon and you want.

[lesliec]

..., get some Transglutaminase and call it a night.

 

Not a bad thought, and I'm quite sure it would work. But I'm not getting the need for all the extras anyway.  I used to use egg in my patties because I thought you had to or they'd fall apart, but a TV chef (yes!) showed me the error of my ways. Now I just use minced meat (whether beef, lamb, pork, ...) and some chopped onion. One thing the TV guy emphasised: don't over-work; just get the meat and onion more or less mixed together, then gently form into patties and LEAVE THEM ALONE. This has been working brilliantly for me, and my burgers have never tasted better. I can't think why bacon in the mix would upset things, but somebody upthread made the sensible suggestion of simply cooking in bacon fat (which I've done, and it's good).

 

But I call that Plan B.  Plan A is to think about how you mix your ingredients and maybe tone it down a bit. Plan C might be transglutaminase.

[Shalmanese]

Not a bad thought, and I'm quite sure it would work. But I'm not getting the need for all the extras anyway.  I used to use egg in my patties because I thought you had to or they'd fall apart, but a TV chef (yes!) showed me the error of my ways. Now I just use minced meat (whether beef, lamb, pork, ...) and some chopped onion. One thing the TV guy emphasised: don't over-work; just get the meat and onion more or less mixed together, then gently form into patties and LEAVE THEM ALONE. This has been working brilliantly for me, and my burgers have never tasted better. I can't think why bacon in the mix would upset things, but somebody upthread made the sensible suggestion of simply cooking in bacon fat (which I've done, and it's good).

 

But I call that Plan B.  Plan A is to think about how you mix your ingredients and maybe tone it down a bit. Plan C might be transglutaminase.

Working gently is correct for 100% raw meat because raw meat has too much adhesion so you want to minimize it to get a tender, airy structure. Cooked meat doesn't really have adhesion and 40% cooked meat is a lot so you need to modify your procedure to get adequate adhesion for the correct texture.

Ground meat can fall anywhere on the burger-sausage spectrum depending on how you process it. Ideally, you want something that has just enough adhesion but not too much that it becomes sausage-like.

[Tri2Cook]

Cooked meat doesn't really have adhesion and 40% cooked meat is a lot so you need to modify your procedure to get adequate adhesion for the correct texture.

Exactly what I've been saying... maybe you'll have better luck with it.

 

[Tatoosh]

Thanks folks - lots of good ideas there.  I had thought about Transglutaminase (aka meat glue) but not ventured there until I exhaust other approaches.  One possibility that I had not broached is simply do not heat finish the bacon.   I do a "warm smoke" which means roughly 200F temperature in the smoker - but the internal temps gets in the 125F to 130F for the bacon at tops while putting smoke on it.   Then we heat finish in an oven.  I can simply not heat finish the bacon I am going to grind.  

 

The standard procedure is curing and smoking 10 kilos at a go.  Then after heat finishing, we select the cuts we want for grinding, the least appealing for slicing.  I can start doing that at the end of the smoking period and set it aside, bypassing the oven.  Now cohesion was fine in the last batch, but the taste was off.  The wife found the bread crumbs off-putting and the bacon flavor was much diminished.  But the patty did not fall apart and the texture and bite was very good.  This is with a fair amount of handling.  We don't treat the meat like Heston, grinding it out in long tubes that are frozen and sliced to keep the direction perpendicular to the angle of the bite.  It's more like, ball for weight, smash into a round form, pressed out to thickness, and frozen.   

It will be a couple of weeks before I can give this another go.  The wife is doing her thesis and I'm doing some of the grunt work (aka Stephen Fetchit) but I'm really chomping at the bit to work with the ideas presented here and get this burger to the next level.  But I will definitely trying a couple of changes after we make bacon again.  

[Tatoosh]

Alright - report on experiment number three: Good news!  This one worked almost perfectly.  I made 3 kilos of burger - 1100 grams of bacon and 1900 grams of beef so pretty close to the 40/60 ratio I want.  I did not heat finish the bacon this time, though it was "warm" smoked.  We double ground the meat - with large and small holes successivlely.  I added 2 tablespoons of sea salt and close to that of fresh ground black pepper.  We used two large eggs as a binder. 

Assembly was 5 to 6 ounce patties, squished a bit more than Heston B. would likely approve of.  Roughly 1/2 inch thick and dimpled to prevent doming.  They cooked through without a problem.  Texture was great, easy to bite, nice mouthfeel, and no crumbling.  We got most of the esthetics better too.  Meat came to the edge of the buns, which were niclly browned on the cut sides. 

They were bursting with smokey bacon flavor and the Aussie cheddar cheese melted nicely.  Flavor was a 9 to 9.5 in my book.  And I owe much of that to you folks.  Thank so much for your feedback and Ideas.  I will continue to work on these over time.  But I will now be working off a very solid base that I would be happy to buy at any upscale burger shop or brew pub.  Greatly appreciate each and every one of you helping get these where they need to be.  

[c oliver]

Alright - report on experiment number three: Good news!  This one worked almost perfectly.  I made 3 kilos of burger - 1100 grams of bacon and 1900 grams of beef so pretty close to the 40/60 ratio I want.  I did not heat finish the bacon this time, though it was "warm" smoked.  We double ground the meat - with large and small holes successivlely.  I added 2 tablespoons of sea salt and close to that of fresh ground black pepper.  We used two large eggs as a binder. 

Assembly was 5 to 6 ounce patties, squished a bit more than Heston B. would likely approve of.  Roughly 1/2 inch thick and dimpled to prevent doming.  They cooked through without a problem.  Texture was great, easy to bite, nice mouthfeel, and no crumbling.  We got most of the esthetics better too.  Meat came to the edge of the buns, which were niclly browned on the cut sides. 

They were bursting with smokey bacon flavor and the Aussie cheddar cheese melted nicely.  Flavor was a 9 to 9.5 in my book.  And I owe much of that to you folks.  Thank so much for your feedback and Ideas.  I will continue to work on these over time.  But I will now be working off a very solid base that I would be happy to buy at any upscale burger shop or brew pub.  Greatly appreciate each and every one of you helping get these where they need to be.  

I'm obviously late to this conversation but I only grind once and never use eggs.  To me, that makes it more like meatloaf.  But it sounds like you like it which is all that matters.  Congrats.

[Tatoosh]

c.oliver - Thanks!  i hear you and I was a bit concerned too.  Our previous effort (Experiment Number 2)  was both meatloaf-y and a flavor fail.  It included both eggs and bread crumbs.  My wife was not pleased with the result.  This time no bread crumbs to be found.  The egg flavor was not prevalent - only 2 eggs for the 6.6 pounds of combined meat so they did not contribute significantly except as a binder.  And hey, it was ground bacon so eggs kind of fit in a breakfasty sort of way.  Not that the burger ended up being breakfasty at all. 

 

The twice grind really produced the consistency I wanted.  We had done a single grind previously and it gave coarser texture.  The second grind through the smaller plate took the consistency down to just what I look for in a burger.  Of course, folks like different things. My original concern was cohesion.  No problem at all in that area - perfect presentable little pucks visually but easy to bite through.  No crumbling, great texture, and big bang flavor.  Not meatloafy to me at all.  My wife was thumbs up,so were the brothers-in-law.   This will be my basic "burger" for the foreseeable future.  

[c oliver]

c.oliver - Thanks!  i hear you and I was a bit concerned too.  Our previous effort (Experiment Number 2)  was both meatloaf-y and a flavor fail.  It included both eggs and bread crumbs.  My wife was not pleased with the result.  This time no bread crumbs to be found.  The egg flavor was not prevalent - only 2 eggs for the 6.6 pounds of combined meat so they did not contribute significantly except as a binder.  And hey, it was ground bacon so eggs kind of fit in a breakfasty sort of way.  Not that the burger ended up being breakfasty at all. 

 

The twice grind really produced the consistency I wanted.  We had done a single grind previously and it gave coarser texture.  The second grind through the smaller plate took the consistency down to just what I look for in a burger.  Of course, folks like different things. My original concern was cohesion.  No problem at all in that area - perfect presentable little pucks visually but easy to bite through.  No crumbling, great texture, and big bang flavor.  Not meatloafy to me at all.  My wife was thumbs up,so were the brothers-in-law.   This will be my basic "burger" for the foreseeable future.  

Thanks for taking the time to elaborate!  I didn't think about the egg to meat ratio.  Makes sense.  I haven't learned to add photos here or I would share our burgers.  Coarse ground once, 4oz. patties, which started at 6 then went to 5 and we're happy with 4.  On a toasted English muffin.  We're 'older' folks so find we don't need/want nearly as much meat to satisfy the craving.  Again, thanks.

[Tatoosh]

Bacon for grinding:

 

 

Beef for grinding:

 

First Grind:

 

Second Grind:

Additions to mix (Salt, Pepper, Eggs):

Bacon & Beef Burgers:

 

[c oliver]

Oops, got the photos posted and then forgot the message.  (Thanks, Smitty!)  Somewhere I have a photo of the meat coming out of the KA grinder.  But as you can see, we just do one coarse grind.  We like that texture but next time I''m going to make part of the batch with some bacon.  Also we have come to prefer pork shoulder to beef.  Just us.  Thanks for the good info and pix.

Well, dagnabbit, where did the pic go???  Let's try again

[NEPolarbear]

Thank you for the follow up and posting the images.

What do you mean by "warm smoked" for the bacon?

[Tatoosh]

I'm running a lower temperature on my smoker, but not cold smoking.  Normally I smoke around 225F or so but have started smoking my bacon at the 175F to 195F range.  Hard to run a charcoal unit lower than that.  I used to finish the bacon to 150F internal in the smoker.  Started doing the "warm" smoke and then heat finishing the bacon to the 150F in my oven so I could capture the bacon grease for other uses.  With the bacon destined for burger, I've quit doing the heat finish and that has helped improve my texture and keep the burger from being "crumbly".

I like your burger and it is very much the first grind texture.  Sadly, growing up I was not introduced to coarse sausages and so forth until late in my life.  i did not develop a taste for them but rather for the opposite side - balogna, hot dogs, and that sort of thing - fine grinds and all the way to emulsified.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Tatoosh (log)

[Smithy]

Thank you for persevering until you got it right - and keeping us informed about the project! I think there are going to be a lot of "Bacon Burgers a la Tatoosh" being made, thanks to you. I'm looking forward to trying it. :-)