• Welcome to the eG Forums, a service of the eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters. The Society is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of the culinary arts. These advertising-free forums are provided free of charge through donations from Society members. Anyone may read the forums, but to post you must create an account.

paulraphael

Locust bean gum

8 posts in this topic

I've been experimenting with stabilizer blends for ice cream, and am currently using a variation on one recommended by Francisco Migoya:  xanthan, locust bean gum, and guar gum in a ratio of about 1 : 1.4 : 1.4.

 

My one hesitation with this blend is that LCB requires a lot of heat (according to some sources) to hydrate fully. Modernist Cuisine and a couple of other sources say it needs to go above 90°C.  I'd like to not have to cook the dairy this high.

 

Some other sources say LCB only needs 80°C, and others say 47°C.

 

This is a lot of variation, and I'm curious if it's because of actual variation in versions of the product, different standards of solubility (including different amounts of time), or because someone's misinformed.

 

If it's just a question of time, I'm wondering if I can get away with lower temperatures, because my base has some egg custard and needs to be cooked anyhow (I cook in a water bath for about 30 minutes but could go longer ... temperature of at least 79°C) and the mix then ages at least 8 hours in the fridge.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Edited to add: I've been trying to get information from the manufacturer, with no success. My LCB comes from CP Kelco, who were nice enough to send a sample, but I can't get them to return email or phone calls. 


Edited by paulraphael (log)
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Finally got a scientist on the phone. She said 80°C. I asked what happens at lower temps and she said that fractionally smaller amounts of the gum would hydrate. So, at 75°C, maybe only 80% or so of the gum would disolve and contribute to thickening. And she said this was independent of the time spent at temperature. 

 

She said this had to do with normal organic variation from one molecule to the next.


Edited by paulraphael (log)
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would you be able to hydrate the gum in a small amount of milk at the higher temp then add it to your ice cream base after cooling slightly? Not sure how these things work, just an idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, that would be possible. I think I won't have to do this, though. The temperature the manufacturer gave me is probably as low as I need to go. There's egg custard in my recipe as well, and that needs cooking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been experimenting with stabilizer blends for ice cream, and am currently using a variation on one recommended by Francisco Migoya:  xanthan, locust bean gum, and guar gum in a ratio of about 1 : 1.4 : 1.4.

 

My one hesitation with this blend is that LCB requires a lot of heat (according to some sources) to hydrate fully. Modernist Cuisine and a couple of other sources say it needs to go above 90°C.  I'd like to not have to cook the dairy this high.

 

Some other sources say LCB only needs 80°C, and others say 47°C.

 

This is a lot of variation, and I'm curious if it's because of actual variation in versions of the product, different standards of solubility (including different amounts of time), or because someone's misinformed.

 

If it's just a question of time, I'm wondering if I can get away with lower temperatures, because my base has some egg custard and needs to be cooked anyhow (I cook in a water bath for about 30 minutes but could go longer ... temperature of at least 79°C) and the mix then ages at least 8 hours in the fridge.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Edited to add: I've been trying to get information from the manufacturer, with no success. My LCB comes from CP Kelco, who were nice enough to send a sample, but I can't get them to return email or phone calls. 

 

Hope we can still help with this one! The higher the temperature, the more of it will hydrate. You can absolutely use lower temperatures, but less of it will hydrate. If you decide to use a lower temp, we recommend increasing the amount of LCB by 20%.

1 person likes this

Caren Palevitz

Online Writer for Modernist Cuisine

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you Caren. 

 

I suspected there were hydrocolloid gurus hiding in the shadows. Do you know much about ice cream stabilizer blends in general?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/8/2014 at 11:49 AM, paulraphael said:

 

I've been experimenting with stabilizer blends for ice cream, and am currently using a variation on one recommended by Francisco Migoya:  xanthan, locust bean gum, and guar gum in a ratio of about 1 : 1.4 : 1.4.

 

How much of the mixture do you put into a batch of ice cream?  I'm currently using a recipe that starts at 1,000 g and is reduced to 850 g before putting it into the ice bath.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I forgot this topic existed. And am glad no one was overly confused by my abbreviating locust bean gum "lcb."

 

I've done a lot of experimenting since last year and have completely ditched this Migoya formula, but not locust bean gum, which seems to be the best of the conventional gums for taming ice crystals. 

 

The xanthan / lbg combination forms a pretty strong gel. The base will turn into a thick pudding when it ages, and will need to be turned into a fluid gel with a stick blender before you can spin it. Even then, the viscosity will be very high; more than what's ideal for most ice creams. This formula might work for a very low-fat or no-fat ice cream that benefits from the gelling (to make up for a lack of creaminess. 

 

Xanthan is also not the most efficient stabilizer. I've ditched it and now use a more conventional combination of locust, guar, and carrageenan (I use lambda carrageenan, because it doesn't form a gel in dairy). 

 

Right now my favorite ratio is 4 : 2 : 1, with the total of this used at around 0.15%. There's a lot of wiggle room. If you want more body and chew, increase the guar. If you want a thicker, creamier melted viscosity, increase the carrageenan. 

 

I've written about this in much greater detail here

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Similar Content

    • By boudin noir
      I recently did some halibut steaks sous vide. They were about 1 1/2  inches thick. I did them for 30 minutes at 122 degrees. When i took them out to brown them, they were very fragile. As I browned them they fell apart. They were delicious, perfectly cooked from an eating point of view, but ugly. Too hot, too long or both?
    • By bhsimon
      Anyone tried this?
       
      I'm trying to think of something novel to do for my friends at an upcoming birthday weekend. We are renting a house in the Hunter Valley (Australian wine region) and food is a major component of our weekend. Last time I did fizzy fruit—the grapes and oranges were awesome and everyone enjoyed the unique experience. I want to do something quirky like that again.
       
      The whipping siphon is easy to transport so I'm interested in using it. The siphoned soufflé in Modernist Cuisine, volume 4 page 297, has a chocolate variation that does not require propylene glycol alginate or maltodextrin (I don't have those things in my pantry, yet). That looks like it might be a good one to try. Anyone done that and have some advice for me before I dive in?
    • By bhsimon
      Besides the health concerns, deep frying steak is the best way to get an even colour and crust on steak. In my most recent experiment, I tried the technique of deep frying prior to, and after, cooking the steak sous vide. In the past, I had only fried the meat after it had been cooked.
       
      The meat was veal chops. As can often be the case, the meat was mishandled somewhere along the way. The obvious signs of this were indentations in the surface. This kind of thing makes it tricky to pan fry and get even colour.
       


       
      This soft meat is also tricky to vacuum seal as it can often be further compressed and misshapen in the process.
       
      I was delighted to observe that a short 45 seconds in hot oil fixed both of these issues! I didn't expect that. Nice. The meat plumped up and that indentation was gone. It also held its shape nicely when vacuum packed.
       

       
      Time and temperature matters. The difference can be just a few seconds or degrees. In the next picture, the time was the same but the oil was 20°C hotter for the steak on the left and the crust is noticeably darker. My next experiment will try 30 seconds at 200°C before and after.
       


      The goal is to keep the crust as thin as possible.
       

       
      I hadn't anticipated the secondary benefits of deep frying prior to sous vide. The plumping of the meat and slight firmness made them easy to package and present. I am curious whether anyone has observed this. I am also curious if it would it work in hot water, rather than oil.



    • By Porthos
      I have purchased an Anova circulator. My interest in sous vide is based upon needing to prepare chicken and pork dishes that remain more moist than other cooking methods I have used. This is based upon needing more moistness for my wife. After her bariactric surgery she became sensitive to meat that is not still very moist.
       
      I would like recommendations for some threads to read through to help get me started.
    • By Adamsm83
      So I did a quick search for a SV whole prime rib and everything I found just turned into, "why waste your time? Just roast it!" Which I would generally agree with, but the kitchen I work in only has one oven that can't be tied up long enough to do the prime rib, so I found a couple of recipes out there and I think my recipe will be as follows...
      Cut a 10# prime rib in half and salt and pepper the outside.
      Vaccum seal each 5# roast and SV at 137 degrees for 10hours.
      Remove from the bags. Pat dry, rub all over with roasted garlic puree, chopped rosemary, thyme & pepper.
      Roast in a 500 degree oven until dark brown.
       
      Now here is where things get tricky, I want to hold it under a banquette heat lamp during service and cut to order (like you used to see at every home town restaurant in the 90's) So my questions are, 1, is it safe? I realize that the SV and the oven should be safe, but then it sits out , although under a heat lamp, lets face it, they aren't great. Still if it sits from 5 to 9 and is gone by 9 then its okay to be in the danger zone since it will be gone in 4 hours anyways (assuming we sell out or throw out left overs. 2, what would my expected yield be after SV. I read you have a loss of approx. 20% when roasting, less if its bone-in, so SV w/ bones what are your opinions? And lastly, what are peoples opinions about the flavor profile of SV beef on the bone. 
       
      Other info to consider, i will be using a very fresh, very local beef that is grass fed up to 600# and finished on brewers grains. The meat has a very rich flavor, not overly irony, but still much more "meaty, beefy" flavor than the crap at the super markets. 
      Anyways, I would like to get this thing rolling next week, so any helpful tips, tricks or advice would be much appreciated. Thanks!
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.