Jump to content
  • Welcome to the eG Forums, a service of the eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters. The Society is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of the culinary arts. These advertising-free forums are provided free of charge through donations from Society members. Anyone may read the forums, but to post you must create a free account.

Recommended Posts

I've been experimenting with stabilizer blends for ice cream, and am currently using a variation on one recommended by Francisco Migoya:  xanthan, locust bean gum, and guar gum in a ratio of about 1 : 1.4 : 1.4.

 

My one hesitation with this blend is that LCB requires a lot of heat (according to some sources) to hydrate fully. Modernist Cuisine and a couple of other sources say it needs to go above 90°C.  I'd like to not have to cook the dairy this high.

 

Some other sources say LCB only needs 80°C, and others say 47°C.

 

This is a lot of variation, and I'm curious if it's because of actual variation in versions of the product, different standards of solubility (including different amounts of time), or because someone's misinformed.

 

If it's just a question of time, I'm wondering if I can get away with lower temperatures, because my base has some egg custard and needs to be cooked anyhow (I cook in a water bath for about 30 minutes but could go longer ... temperature of at least 79°C) and the mix then ages at least 8 hours in the fridge.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Edited to add: I've been trying to get information from the manufacturer, with no success. My LCB comes from CP Kelco, who were nice enough to send a sample, but I can't get them to return email or phone calls. 

Edited by paulraphael (log)
  • Like 1

Notes from the underbelly

Link to post
Share on other sites

Finally got a scientist on the phone. She said 80°C. I asked what happens at lower temps and she said that fractionally smaller amounts of the gum would hydrate. So, at 75°C, maybe only 80% or so of the gum would disolve and contribute to thickening. And she said this was independent of the time spent at temperature. 

 

She said this had to do with normal organic variation from one molecule to the next.

Edited by paulraphael (log)
  • Like 1

Notes from the underbelly

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, that would be possible. I think I won't have to do this, though. The temperature the manufacturer gave me is probably as low as I need to go. There's egg custard in my recipe as well, and that needs cooking.

Notes from the underbelly

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Caren Palevitz

I've been experimenting with stabilizer blends for ice cream, and am currently using a variation on one recommended by Francisco Migoya:  xanthan, locust bean gum, and guar gum in a ratio of about 1 : 1.4 : 1.4.

 

My one hesitation with this blend is that LCB requires a lot of heat (according to some sources) to hydrate fully. Modernist Cuisine and a couple of other sources say it needs to go above 90°C.  I'd like to not have to cook the dairy this high.

 

Some other sources say LCB only needs 80°C, and others say 47°C.

 

This is a lot of variation, and I'm curious if it's because of actual variation in versions of the product, different standards of solubility (including different amounts of time), or because someone's misinformed.

 

If it's just a question of time, I'm wondering if I can get away with lower temperatures, because my base has some egg custard and needs to be cooked anyhow (I cook in a water bath for about 30 minutes but could go longer ... temperature of at least 79°C) and the mix then ages at least 8 hours in the fridge.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Edited to add: I've been trying to get information from the manufacturer, with no success. My LCB comes from CP Kelco, who were nice enough to send a sample, but I can't get them to return email or phone calls. 

 

Hope we can still help with this one! The higher the temperature, the more of it will hydrate. You can absolutely use lower temperatures, but less of it will hydrate. If you decide to use a lower temp, we recommend increasing the amount of LCB by 20%.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 years later...
On 6/8/2014 at 11:49 AM, paulraphael said:

 

I've been experimenting with stabilizer blends for ice cream, and am currently using a variation on one recommended by Francisco Migoya:  xanthan, locust bean gum, and guar gum in a ratio of about 1 : 1.4 : 1.4.

 

How much of the mixture do you put into a batch of ice cream?  I'm currently using a recipe that starts at 1,000 g and is reduced to 850 g before putting it into the ice bath.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I forgot this topic existed. And am glad no one was overly confused by my abbreviating locust bean gum "lcb."

 

I've done a lot of experimenting since last year and have completely ditched this Migoya formula, but not locust bean gum, which seems to be the best of the conventional gums for taming ice crystals. 

 

The xanthan / lbg combination forms a pretty strong gel. The base will turn into a thick pudding when it ages, and will need to be turned into a fluid gel with a stick blender before you can spin it. Even then, the viscosity will be very high; more than what's ideal for most ice creams. This formula might work for a very low-fat or no-fat ice cream that benefits from the gelling (to make up for a lack of creaminess. 

 

Xanthan is also not the most efficient stabilizer. I've ditched it and now use a more conventional combination of locust, guar, and carrageenan (I use lambda carrageenan, because it doesn't form a gel in dairy). 

 

Right now my favorite ratio is 4 : 2 : 1, with the total of this used at around 0.15%. There's a lot of wiggle room. If you want more body and chew, increase the guar. If you want a thicker, creamier melted viscosity, increase the carrageenan. 

 

I've written about this in much greater detail here

Notes from the underbelly

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Similar Content

    • By kostbill
      I really want to improve the flavor of my chicken breast so I want to try to inject brine with fat and flavors.
       
      I would like to try brining with some hydrocolloids. The one example I found is this: https://torontofoodlab.com/2013/08/20/meat-tenderizing-with-a-carrageenan-brine/.
       
      However I cannot apply that to my chicken breast because I am cooking it sous vide, so the chicken will not reach the temperature needed for the carrageenan to gel.
       
      I am thinking of using Methyl cellulose, first disperse in hot water, then leave it for 24 hours in the fridge, then add salt, fat and flavors and inject it.
      I am afraid that until it reaches the 50C or 60C that the Methyl cellulose needs in order to gel, the liquid will escape.
      Any ideas?
      Thanks.
    • By Anonymous Modernist 760
      Thanks for putting up this forum 🙂
      I would like to bake using a combination of sous vide and a conventional oven. Would it be possible to put the dough in a vacuum bag cook it sous vide at 37C for the dough to raise optimal and then put it in a conventional oven?
      Thanks
    • By Chef Hermes Blog
      Warm Onion Bavarois
      * 300g Sweet Onion purée
      * 250g Whole milk
      * 150g Whipping cream
      * 150g Chicken stock (or fresh vegetable nage, not stock cubes)
      * 3.5g Gellan gum
      * Seasoning
      Lightly grease with vegetable oil the moulds you intend to use (darioles, ramekins etc) and set to one side.
      In a pan (but not on the heat), whisk together all the ingredients.
      Place on a medium heat and whisk continuously, the mix will start to thicken slightly. Carry on whisking for a further 3-4 minutes when it has started to bubble. Then quickly pour into the greased moulds & chill.
      To reheat for serving, just place the ramekin in a pan of water and simmer gently for 8-10 mins.
    • By swpeterson
      I have been buying country style bone-in ribs instead of bone-in pork chops. I season them with a rub very similar to Emeril's Rustic Rub spice rub and use a heaping tablespoon a rendered Nueskie's Applewood smoked bacon fat in the Food Saver vacumn bag. We have been using 2 ribs in the bag but have made the decision to switch to one to split. The meat is so rich and flavorful that we can easily split one and enjoy the meal even more.
      For a sauce, I cobbled together a sauce made with the juice of half a valencia orange, the pulp from 1 passion fruit, 1 cup pitted cherries (I used rainiers and bings in this one), 1 tsp Dijon mustard, 1/2 cup white wine, juice from 1 lime, 2 tsp honey, garlic cloves crushed (I used roasted garlic that I keep in the fridge and 'crushed' them in my 'special' coffee grinder(2)) and 1 medium sized shallot. I used the same bacon fat to soften the shallots, then added the rest of the ingredients and let it reduce by about a third and then let it rest and reheated it when the pork ribs were done.
      I kept them in the sous vide at 141 from 10:00 AM until I got home from work at 7:00. It took another half hour +/- to change clothes, pour a glass of wine, reheat the sauce, make a salad, and heat up the garlic bread that I keep prepped in the freezer. After the bread was heated for about 8 minutes, I switched the oven to broil and took the bread out of the oven.
      I have started to experiment with using the broiler element to put color on the proteins that I have cooked in the sous vide. I have placed the oven rack on the third rack from the top, leave the door ajar while I bring the broiler element up to heat. I use my 10" stainless steel saute pan with a stainless steel rack in the pan for the protein. I open the sous vide package and pour the liquid that has accumulated in the bag into the bottom of the pan. I put the ribs, fattest side up on the rack and place the pan in the oven. I leave the door ajar and let them stay in there for 8 mnutes.
      That timing has worked extremely well for both the ribs and the chicken that I have done. I don't flip them yet and that hasn't been necessary for those 2 proteins. (I was much less successful with this formula for the flank steak which I think needs to be closer the heat source for less time).
      At any rate, the broiler is working well for color and the meat and sauce are great. The sauce also works very well with chicken. Haven't tried it yet with the salmon.
      Just wanted to share as I really love this sous vide thing and wanted to share.
      Sorry no photos yet. I haven't figured that part out yet but my husband promises to teach me.
    • By PedroG
      Utilization of meat leftovers from sous-vide cooking
      Sometimes when you buy a nice cut of meat, your eyes are bigger than your and your beloved's stomach. So what to do with the leftovers?
      In Tyrolia (Austria) they make a "Gröstl", in Solothurn (Switzerland) they make a "Gnusch", in the Seftigenamt (a region in the Swiss canton Berne) they make a "Gmüder", and we (Pedro and SWAMBO) make a varying concoct using ideas from all of the three. We call it "Gröstl", but it is not necessarily a typical Tyrolean Gröstl, and it is different each time, and we usually do not top it with a fried egg as they do in Austria.
      Ingredients

      All your meat leftovers
      Onion (compulsory)
      Any hard vegetable (we prefer celery stalks, or zucchini)
      Any salad (iceberg lettuce or endive/chicory or any other salad leaves, may contain carrot julienne)
      Fried potatoes, or alternatively sweetcorn kernels
      Sherry or wine or bouillon or the gravy you preserved from your last LTLT.cooked meat for simmering (I usually prefer Sherry)
      Eventually some cream (or crème fraîche)
      Salt, pepper, parsley, caraway seeds (typical for Tyrolean Gröstl), paprika, condiment (in Switzerland we use "Aromat" by Knorr, which contains sodium chloride, sodium glutamate, lactose, starch, yeast extract, vegetable fats, onions, spices, E552)'
      vegetable oil (I prefer olive oil)




      Mise en place

      cut your meat in small cubes or slices
      cut the onion(s) not too fine (place the first cut below your tongue to avoid tearing during cutting)
      cut the vegetables about 3-4 mm thick
      cut the salads to pieces smaller than 4 cm, distribute on the cutting board and season deliberately
      cut the potatoes to 1 cm cubes
      place 3 heavy skillets with ample oil on the stove

      Cooking

      in skillet 1, stir-fry the onions, add the hard vegetables still stir-frying, add salad, add sufficient liquid (Sherry or wine or bouillon or gravy) for simmering under a cover until soft. If desired, reduce heat and add some cream at the end.
      in skillet 2, stir-fry the potatoes until soft (in case of sweetcorn kernels, add to skillet 1 after stir-frying and use skillet 2 for skillet 3)
      in skillet 3, as soon as the vegetables and the potatoes are soft, sear the meat in just smoking oil for 30-60 seconds, then add to skillet 1

      Serving
      You may mix the potatoes with the vegetables and meat to make a rather typical Gröstl, or serve the fried potatoes separately; we prefer the latter, as the potatoes stay more crunchy.
      Do not forget to serve a glass of good dry red wine!
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...