Rick Bayless and Burger King - Part 2

[badthings]

Really?  Fresh masa has to be ground out of lime-water cooked maize that then has the sheath removed.  But maybe we can cut a corner and use masa harina.  That takes 30 minutes to hydrate, then you must press and griddle the tortillas for a few minutes each.  So we use premade tortillas.

I think this argument is flawed, because tortillas fresh from the local factory are both good and incredibly cheap. Part of the point of tortillas is that you make them in advance. Not unlike bread, but it's a lot harder to make shitty tortillas than shitty bread.

I suspect that one reason Rick's defenders here seem to be so angry is that there is -- or was, 20 or so pages ago -- a hint of glee among some of his detractors. I certainly got the impression that some people found him hypocritical before the ad, and were happy to watch him prove it on TV.

I was never particularly fond of Rick Bayless, the personality, but I have always been, and will continue to be, happy to turn off the TV and read his books, which I believe are an incomparable gift to english speakers who are seriously interested in Mexican food.

[jbraynolds]

Both his books and his restaurants are a priceless gifts/resources for anyone interested in Mexican food. Or any food, for that matter...Frontera/Topo have been among the handful of great, national-class restaurants in Chicago for over a decade. Hence the dismay.

[ExtraMSG]

I think this argument is flawed, because tortillas fresh from the local factory are both good and incredibly cheap. Part of the point of tortillas is that you make them in advance. Not unlike bread, but it's a lot harder to make shitty tortillas than shitty bread.

It's relative. There is a significant, noticeable difference between fresh tortillas and factory tortillas, and a noticeable difference between fresh tortillas made with masa harina and fresh tortillas made from fresh masa. Though I do find it interesting to think that factory made burgers, grown beef, cut fries, etc, would be evil, but factory tortillas would be good.

But it's beside the point anyway. The more important issue is whether someone can get something quickly with a certain level of consistency that they're happy with by going to BK, or Carl's Jr, or McDonald's, or Wendy's, or Taco Bell. I think they can. Some will say that they'd do better by going to some local chain or mom and pop burger joint, like In and Out in California or Burgerville in Oregon. Maybe. But how are people supposed to just know that. It's easy to discover that BK meets a certain level of quality anywhere and everywhere. Like I said, you randomly choose a Mexican place and it's a crap shoot for twice the bucks. Sit someone down at Les Halles for steak and fries for over triple the meal price at BK and even if they like it more, they probably won't think it's worth the extra dough. I deal with this daily whether it's choosing a place to eat lunch with friends, going out to dinner with family, or just making a meal for my wife. The chains serve a very useful purpose. Are they the best option, especially for people like myself? No. But they work well for a lot of people.

PS I do like Bayless' books. I own three. I didn't like his shows much. And I thought his restaurants were only decent with some misguided (and expensive) dishes. He may be overhyped and full of crap, but on the face of it, I think what he's done is no big deal.

[jbraynolds]

Agreed on the misguided dishes at FG/Topo...the more classic dishes are way more consistent. The drinks are good, too.

[badthings]

It's relative.  There is a significant, noticeable difference between fresh tortillas and factory tortillas, and a noticeable difference between fresh tortillas made with masa harina and fresh tortillas made from fresh masa.  Though I do find it interesting to think that factory made burgers, grown beef, cut fries, etc, would be evil, but factory tortillas would be good.

This is perhaps a regional problem. Here in N. California there are several local "factories" that make fresh nixtamal, fresh masa, and fresh tortillas every day. They cost something like $1 for 5 dozen. I found that most people in Mexico seem to get their torillas from a similar if smaller finca. They are not the same as a tortilla fresh of the comal, but the difference is much much less than that between "real" bread and BK "baguettes."

Like I said, you randomly choose a Mexican place and it's a crap shoot for twice the bucks.

Well, we have an uncountable number of taco trucks here that are invariably superior to and cheaper than a place like BK. I know not everyone's so lucky. Having driven across the country several times, I really do understand the joy a Burger King can bring. Regardless of this, I personally feel that Rick's promotion of BK is incompatible with his promotion of sustainable agriculture. But that was not my point; my point was to agree with our own celebrity chef and many other posters that better, faster, and cheaper fast food is not an impossible dream, it's a reality in much of the world including parts of this country.

[ExtraMSG]

Yeah, I don't drink, but some dishes were fantastic. eg, at FG, the pozole verde I had was awesome. But then they toss some overcooked pork tenderloin on top for no apparent reason except maybe to justify the price of the dish. And they bring you out some pretty mediocre chips, which they charge you for, along with a couple thimbles full of salsa that taste like it came out of one of his jars. At Topolo things were a little better, I think, at least at justifying their price, but still inconsistent. The cajeta was fabulous, though. Damn. If you haven't made that from his books you should jump on it. Though I haven't been to his restaurant enough to make a defniitive judgment, my experience was that it was pretty good stuff, a little overpriced, but not as good on average as the authentic Mexican we have here in Portland through Cafe Azul and to a lesser extent La Calaca Comelona and Taqueria Nueve (which is not actually a taqueria).

[ExtraMSG]

Well, we have an uncountable number of taco trucks here that are invariably superior to and cheaper than a place like BK. I know not everyone's so lucky. Having driven across the country several times, I really do understand the joy a Burger King can bring. Regardless of this, I personally feel that Rick's promotion of BK is incompatible with his promotion of sustainable agriculture. But that was not my point; my point was to agree with our own celebrity chef and many other posters that better, faster, and cheaper fast food is not an impossible dream, it's a reality in much of the world including parts of this country.

Superior to you and me, sure, but that's not the same as saying they are "superior" in some absolute sense. I go through this all the time. I'm in Oregon, btw. We have about a 10% Latino population in Portland area (probably more in the metro and towards the Salem area) with some very good taquerias and taco trucks, even a whole town (Woodburn, OR) that has been converted to taquerias and tiendas. And I have a very good basis for comparison having traveled in Mexico for food and in Texas and California in search of good taqueria food. I have too many friends who I've introduced to taquerias, including my wife, who prefer even Taco Bell. I'm taking these people to the very best taquerias in town and still they'd rather go to Taco Bell. It may seem sad to you and me, but I tend to think this is going to be the average response in the US, especially if you move more towards the NE and Midwest where even Taco Bell can seem exotic.

[hollywood]

where even Taco Bell can seem exotic.

[jbraynolds]

Taco Bell has definitely captured the mainstream palate and, unfortunately, probably defines "Mexican" food for millions of people. I guess that Old El Paso could take some credit, too. And Doritos. The real deal is, alas, seemingly too daunting for the majority. If people can't deal with the authentic version, simply white-bread it down. Hence the enormous popularity of Chevy's, Chuy's, Chi Chi's and, "Asian"-wise, P.F. Chang's. Not to mention places like Sullivan's which (very successfully)offer up a faux-steakhouse experience, loaded with every possible cliche at shopping centers across the land.

[ExtraMSG]

I actually think Chevy's is pretty decent Mexican-American food. It's better than most Mexican places serving up combination platters of tacos, enchiladas, beans and rice. I think it's better Mexican than Olive Garden is Italian, eg. There are some good Mexican chains in Texas, too. Remember, though, they're not trying to serve Mexican food, they're trying to serve a regional American cuisine.

I just got back from Mazatlan. I was interested to see that in Mazatlan the locals have really adopted a lot of American influence in their food. I'm not talking about the places in the tourist areas. I mean actual places where you almost never see a gringo. Places where everyone stopped and stared to surprised to see me. Nachos, eg, the crappy ballpark kind with velveeta style cheese sauce and jarred jalapenos was common. So were wheat flour tortillas. Even the tortillerias made them. And hot dog and hamburger carts were as common, maybe moreso, than taco stands. I was amazed. It was much more pronounced than Puerto Vallarta. There were probably fewer such places in even the tourist sections of PV. Talking with a lot of the locals, though, many of those that work in the tourist areas have lived, even for only a month, in the US. The one thing I love though, and you find this even in cities like Guadalajara and Mexico, is that they wrap their hot dogs in bacon and then serve them usually with grilled jalapenos. You have to respect a culture that truly understands that even a pork dish can use bacon.

But anyway, they've definitely taken a liking to some of the Americanizations of their foods. (And pizza was extremely popular.)

[jhlurie]

I have too many friends who I've introduced to taquerias, including my wife, who prefer even Taco Bell.  I'm taking these people to the very best taquerias in town and still they'd rather go to Taco Bell.  It may seem sad to you and me, but I tend to think this is going to be the average response in the US, especially if you move more towards the NE and Midwest where even Taco Bell can seem exotic.

It seems more than sad to me, it seems tragic. We can villify BK and McDonalds all we want, but even at their worst they rarely approach the horror that is Taco Bell. But obviously there must be something magic in that big hose they pump the taco fillings and beans in with, and we're just not seeing (or tasting) it.

And it's not like I've never had that experience myself. On every level possible, I know that the McRib is a horrible horrible thing. But I love it. Sick, huh?

[ExtraMSG]

Nasty joke follows: Taco Bell uses essentially caulking guns to spit out their food stuffs. Thus if you go there you are eating caulk and hence are a caulk sucker. Sorry, sometimes I just can't help the dirty double-entrendres.

[jbraynolds]

Well, at least you didn't say that the stuffings at Taco Bell are extruded. Twice. Or that there's something poetic about how a ground up extruder winds up getting extruded, yet again. But, odds are, extrusion doesn't happen a third time. Mor eof a Jackson Pollack effect, you know.

[tanabutler]

This could deserve a thread of its own, but I'm posting here because it has a certain relevancy.

The Meatrix

[badthings]

The Meatrix

A more palatable resistance: Niman Ranch.

I had the most astonishing pork loin last night. It tasted like it came from 50 years ago.

[Andrew Fenton]

A fifty-year-old pork loin? Sounds mummylicious!

[tanabutler]

Niman Ranch's bacon is The Best On Earth Ever. The label says (heh) "Heirloom Pork."

[badthings]

A fifty-year-old pork loin? Sounds mummylicious!

Heh. Of course, I meant that it tasted as if someone had turned back the clock on 50 years of breeding to remove intramusular fat. Good as Niman Ranch pork is, they are working with the same genetic material as everyone else. Or so I thought until this loin.

By the way, KFC is now claiming health benefits for fried chicken. Come on everyone, let's keep this thread going. I want 50 pages!

[ronnie_suburban]

By the way, KFC is now claiming health benefits for fried chicken. Come on everyone, let's keep this thread going. I want 50 pages!

hehe, I saw a few of their ads touting the newly-discovered nutritional friendliness of their products. One even mentioned carb/protein counts. Dr. Atkins would be so happy

=R=

[Toliver]

By the way, KFC is now claiming health benefits for fried chicken. Come on everyone, let's keep this thread going. I want 50 pages!

I was stunned, to say the least, after seeing the KFC commercial touting how much "healthier" their chicken was when compared to a BK Whopper. The commercial then goes on to say "remove the skin and it's only 3 grams of fat."

Without the skin though, why eat the KFC chicken? Who do they think I am...SobaAddict70?

It's an interesting turn of events. Who's next? Pizza Hut claiming their pizza is healthier than KFC's chicken (but you have to remove the pizza's cheese and meat first)?

[hillbill]

FYI for people in the NYC area, there's a TV show on PBS Channel 13 about Burger King at 10:30 tonight, Nov. 10

Back to the Floor # 102 Burger King

England's Eric Bonnot is determined to win the battle of the burgers, despite challenges posed by Mad Cow disease and tough competitors. After training at the busy new Burger King in Liverpool, he is grilling Whoppers, frying fries and serving customers. His lack of experience shows. His colleagues support him, but make sure he's aware of the realities of their working life.

Eric Bonnot, General Manager

At the Liverpool Burger King, where staff is resentful at having to do extra cleaning for Bonnot's visit, workers are already rooting against the top dog. One employee sneers, "I hope by the end of the week he's gone home and he's absolutely knackered." When Bonnot shows up for work in the hot, frantic Burger King kitchen—wearing a coat, a tie and a nervous smile—it's clear the guy's in for a rude awakening.

Edited November 11, 2003 by hillbill (log)

[tan319]

I saw this documentary. It's very watchable.

very good.

[tommy]

for those that missed the PBS show, it should be on again at 1 (1:30?) am on the 12th. "back to the floor" is the name of the program, as billhill said.

[hollywood]

Don't know if anyone's mentioned but Hugh Hefner's now doing an ad for Carl's Jr. (burgers) at least in LA. Premise is a guy doesn't want the same thing every night. There's a short ad with just Hugh and a long one with several Playmate types.

[mags]

Oh, that's tasteful. And fits right in with, you know, the family-friendly atomosphere.