Sous vide short ribs, times, and temperatures

[GlowingGhoul]

I find smoking before sous vide is useless. At least with 3mil bages, the smoke scent(and flavor) migrates to the water.

I apply a rub, sous vide to perfection, thouroughly dry, then grill the unsightly meat for a few minutes per side at 600 degress+ on a gas grill with the lid down. The resulting smoke imparts a pronounced flavor, even though it's not the same as wood generated smoke. To be fair,

I haven't smoked for longer than 3 hours, but i imagine the loss of smoke flavor would be similar even with a 7 hour smoke. Perhaps the answer to retaining smoke flavor is in thicker or different material bags.

Edited March 14, 2012 by GlowingGhoul (log)

[Shalmanese]

I find smoking before sous vide is useless. At least with 3mil bages, the smoke scent(and flavor) migrates to the water.

I wonder if doing SV in an oil bath instead of a water bath would mitigate against migration. Is smoke soluble in oil?

[Chris Hennes]

I find smoking before sous vide is useless.

I disagree completely. Yes, the flavor changes, and yes, some of it is changing because it's migrating through the bag into the water. But there is a clear flavor difference between the smoked and unsmoked.

[GlowingGhoul]

Oh, there is a flavor change between pre sous-vide smoked and unsmoked meat, the problem for me is that what's left after long cooks (like ribs or brisket) is no longer recognizeable as having a traditional smoked flavor.

What method of smoking are you using, for what duration, and what cut of meat? For me, a 5 pound smoked brisket manages to completely saturate 20L of water with an intensely smokey scent, and yet the resulting meat has barely a hint of smokiness to it.

[Chris Hennes]

Oh, there is a flavor change between pre sous-vide smoked and unsmoked meat, the problem for me is that what's left after long cooks (like ribs or brisket) is no longer recognizeable as having a traditional smoked flavor.

Yes: but to say it's "useless" seems to me to contend that there is no point in doing it, which I disagree with. The flavor is different, but it's also very different from an unsmoked cut. I certainly have no trouble tasting the difference. I find this is true in brisket, pork shoulder, and pork ribs (the three things I've tried). I typically smoke for 3-6 hours and then somewhere from 36-72 hours of sous vide, depending on the product. Ribs on the shorter end, brisket on the higher.

[kryptos1]

I took what Chris said "I just think it's a bit more than an hour" to 4 hours of cold smoking (again referring to another thread Chris started) keeping it between 71-73F and 30 seconds on each side in a 550 degree grill. Will post photos when I get it done including my "redneck engineered" cold smoker.

They were vacuum sealed and sitting in the fridge waiting for my SideKIC to arrive hopefully today. It says not to use more then 10 quarts but a few folks have posted they did more. I have a 28 quart cooler but will head to Wally World to see if there is a smaller one.

Edited March 15, 2012 by kryptos1 (log)

[Chris Hennes]

Make a styrofoam lid and pre-heat the water and the SideKIC should work fine with your cooler. Note that I have not experimented with cold smoking prior to sous vide, only hot-smoking (though obviously with ribs the "hot" isn't all that hot, to avoid overcooking). Cold smoking is a completely different flavor profile from hot, and is often done for much longer periods of time.

[kryptos1]

I figured letting the SV doing the cooking and smoke for flavoring would work but do wonder how much smoke will be lost. Learning! Wish UPS would show up soon with the new SV toy

[lstrelau]

I cooked some 'meaty' baby back ribs yesterday. 9 hours at 60 C, just salt pepper and a pinch of garlic powder. Then a light slather of BBQ sauce and a few minutes on a hot BBQ. Nice and tender, juicy and just slightly pink rather than grey. These were not very fatty however.

Smoking would have been nice but don't have a smoker.

[kryptos1]

I cooked some 'meaty' baby back ribs yesterday. 9 hours at 60 C, just salt pepper and a pinch of garlic powder. Then a light slather of BBQ sauce and a few minutes on a hot BBQ. Nice and tender, juicy and just slightly pink rather than grey. These were not very fatty however.

Smoking would have been nice but don't have a smoker.

At 9 hours did it cook all the way through and tender? I was intending to SV for 30-48 after reading through this but hey if I can get these ribs for dinner then whoo hoo!

[lstrelau]

Probably too late now for your ribs for dinner but yes, they were cooked through, medium rare. They were not very fatty but what little there was rendered off on the BBQ. They were not 'falling off the bone' tender but certainly not tough. If I did again I might give them another couple or three hours.

My iPhone Sous Vide app said 8-12 hours at 55C for medium rare and 8-12 hours at 60 for medium and 12-24 H at 68.3 for 'well done/traditional.

I also wanted them for dinner and started them at 55 and then after a couple of hours bumped it up to 60 for the duration. They came straight out of the fridge.

As I said, next time I would give them another hour or three. Can't imagine what would be left at 24 hours at 68 though.

I did find other time/temp recommendations in pretty much every source that I checked though. Doesn't seem to be a consensus.

[Blues_Cookin]

I made a rub with brown sugar, cumin, cayenne and a few other spices. Sous vide 48 hours at 145F. Brushed them with Hot Bone Sucking Sauce and grilled long enough to char the sugar.

Best ribs I have ever had in my life.

Used the liquid in the bag to make gravy for mashed potatoes.

Very similar to my approach, I like it very much. In a smoker, 225 is about right for ribs, but in Sous Vide, I think even 180 is too high. I go 5-6 hours at 140 in the smoker with a dry rub, then sous vide at 140 for about 36 hours. Then sauce and caramelize on a hot grill or broiler. I shoot for the BBQ competition mouth feel which is NOT fall-off-the-bone - that is considered over done in comps. They are looking for a rib where the meat comes cleanly off the bone, and the bone dries quickly after the bite, but where the rest of the meat remains intact and adhering to the bone.

[kryptos1]

Well they finally finished yesterday.

What I did and learned:

Smoking: Did a 4 hour cold smoke before the SV. The result didn't have as much smoke as I wanted and the water really was strong smelling. Just a slight smoke ring

SV: Did 46 hours @ 140F/60C

Result: Falling off the bone with good flavor from the rub but as mentioned lacked the smoke

Result after searing: Interesting crispy outside with hotter inside....not 100% sure if I like this better

I also did a tri-tip for 30 hours. Flavor was more smoky with a decent smoke ring but was a little spongy on texture. It was tender, but spongy...maybe I am too used to eating overcooked smoked meats. I cut off some 50MMx50MM/~2"x2", put on a corn syrup/water mixture (from what I learned Douglas Baldwin's chicken video), and seared each side. Where the side had the smoke/rub it was crispier and the inside firmed up just a little. I definately liked this better.

Thanks all for the information. I think I will follow the suggestion to smoke afterwards next time and see how that goes.

I need a better camera.

[rotuts]

thanks for the picture. Always helpful.

[torolover]

Anyone have a good time and temperature for Sous Vide short ribs that are meltingly tender, (no knife needed) but still moist?

134 or 140F at 72 hours is good, but more like a steak, (not falling apart).

Modernist Cuisine suggests 149F at 24 hours, but it was still very tough.

I tried 191F at 7 hours, but still not meltingly tender, and dry.

Anyone have some good experiences?

Edited February 16, 2013 by torolover (log)

[FeChef]

I would like to know aswell. I have tried short ribs at 132F for 48 hours and came out like saw dust. One thing i noticed is that the short ribs ive seen cooked sv on the internet seem thick, but all i can find in my local grocery are 1" thick and to me thats a bit thin and may be why they keep comming out like saw dust.

[scubadoo97]

I did boneless short ribs 56C/65 hr. They were pink and tender

Edited February 17, 2013 by scubadoo97 (log)

[FeChef]

scuba, those look good. How thick were they?

[torolover]

Thanks Scuba, but in my original post I've tried 134F at 48 and 72 hours. It is great, but more like a steak, and not falling apart tender.

I'm looking more for a traditional braised short ribs, but still moist, and not dry. Anyone have suggestions for time and temp for a traditional braised short rib, but keeping it moist?

[nickrey]

Try 60C (140F) for 48 hours. This is the temperature and time that David Chang presents in the Momofuku cookbook. Anything over 150F will result in greater loss of moisture.

[pbear]

Hmm, I've done short ribs 24 hours at 150ºF and was very happy with the results. Nicely tender, though not falling apart. For that, I'd try 36 hours. Nickrey's suggestion probably gets to the same place as regards reduction of collagen to gelatin, though the texture would be a bit softer (less water extracted, which is either good or bad depending on personal preference). Given your stated objectives, torolover, I suspect you'll like my approach better, but you should try both.

But, frankly, I wonder whether the problem is the meat you're sourcing. Have you prepared conventional braised short ribs with that meat? Were you happy with the results? If you haven't done that test, I'd recommend it first. If nothing else, it'll give you a baseline for comparison. And maybe it's simply that this isn't a cut you like done sous vide. Nothing wrong with that.

[torolover]

I don't think it's the ribs, since I got them at Whole Foods and they have lots of marbling in them. My goal is to get short ribs that are almost falling apart so I don't need a knife, but still moist and not stringy or tough. I have tried the low temps so far, but have not succeeded.

I have tried:

134F for 48 hours and 72 hours- great, but not what I'm looking for. Still need a knife and it's not falling apart.

140F for 48 hours and 72 hours- great, a little more flaky, but still need a knife

150F for 24 hours- not great, tough to chew and still need a knife

150F for 48 hours- not great, still tough to chew and need a knife

191F for 7 hours- OK, yes, falling apart, don't need a knife, BUT tough to chew on, and dry

I will try 160F at 24 hours next, and then at 36 hours.

Anyone else have good temp or times for moist, traditional falling apart short ribs?

Edited February 17, 2013 by torolover (log)

[sigma]

180 for 8 hours is going to give you a pretty traditional braise texture for any meat you use, yet it will be significantly juicier than meat braised traditionally in a 350 oven.

[FeChef]

I don't think it's the ribs, since I got them at Whole Foods and they have lots of marbling in them. My goal is to get short ribs that are almost falling apart so I don't need a knife, but still moist and not stringy or tough. I have tried the low temps so far, but have not succeeded.

I have tried:

134F for 48 hours and 72 hours- great, but not what I'm looking for. Still need a knife and it's not falling apart.

140F for 48 hours and 72 hours- great, a little more flaky, but still need a knife

150F for 24 hours- not great, tough to chew and still need a knife

150F for 48 hours- not great, still tough to chew and need a knife

191F for 7 hours- OK, yes, falling apart, don't need a knife, BUT tough to chew on, and dry

I will try 160F at 24 hours next, and then at 36 hours.

Anyone else have good temp or times for moist, traditional falling apart short ribs?

Wow you are dedicated. I pretty much gave up after two attempts @ 48 hours each time and $40 dollars waisted. I just dont have the time or money to waste on this dish. My chuck roasts turn out amazing and cost a fraction of what short ribs cost.

[nickrey]

Cooking it low and slow produces moist, tender meat but with a steak like consistency, which most of us see as a good thing. Cooking it above 150F will lead to the meat falling apart but the temperature means you lose liquid and it becomes dry. There may not be a happy medium where you get both things that you want.

I wouldn't discount experimenting with different meat sources as well. Marbling is one component of meat but there are many more that affect how it will react to cooking.

Edited February 18, 2013 by nickrey (log)