Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment, 2012

[EnriqueB]

Yes, wonderful meat with its interspersed fat. It's easily found here, so it's normally the only pork I eat. Here I subjected a loin to equilibrium brining, then sous-vided and torched it.

[EnriqueB]

Do you mean these tables: ?

Yes, those tables will do, or other time-to-core tables. I normally check both the tables in Modernist Cuisine and Douglas Baldwin and use the longer time as a bit longer in the bath makes no bad. The "presa" shape is not regular, so I use the steak tables with the width of the "presa" in its wider part.

[Paul Kierstead]

On a related note, I've been informed that part of the problem is that lignin - unlike collagen - doesn't dissolve when you cook it. I'm not very good at telling the difference, though. How do I find an SV-appropriate piece of meat?

Have you tried a 48 or 72-hour cook? I'd suggest you try it; I don't think you'll find any tenderness problems after that.

[slkinsey]

On a related note, I've been informed that part of the problem is that lignin - unlike collagen - doesn't dissolve when you cook it. I'm not very good at telling the difference, though. How do I find an SV-appropriate piece of meat?

I'm not quite sure what this means. Lignin is present in plant matter, not in meat as far as I know.

[Robert Jueneman]

The enzymatic tenderization of meat (muscle, not collagen) is at its peak at around 48-50C. So try cooking chuck for four hours at that temperature, then increase it to 55C and hold it there for another 20 hours or even longer, up to 48 hours, in order to both pasteurize it and gelatinize the collagen.

Isn't it dangerous to keep the meat for four hours at the ideal temperature for enzymatic pasteurization? I'm trying to get a handle on all this so I may be totally wrong, but I thought that keeping it at 48-50 C was inadvisable due to bacteria, and that over 130:F (~54.5 C) was ideal for safety concerns.

I have to say that 131F for 24 hours came out amazing, although it did take a bit of getting used to seeing that greenish hue to the exterior before searing. Once seared, though, it looked great and the taste was perfection.

The general rule is that food should be kept within the "danger zone" of 5C to 55C for no more than four hours. So cooking at an intermediate temperature for four hours, then raising it to the pasteurization temperature of 54.4C/130F or higher for a minimum of 112 minutes should be OK.

The rule for raw or undercooked whole-muscle, intact beef steak is that it may be served to a population that is not a highly susceptible population, and the steak is cooked (i.e., seared) on both the top and bottom to a surface temperature of 63C/145F and a cooked color change is achieved on all external surfaces.

For further (very detailed) reading, see the US Food Code at http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/RetailFoodProtection/FoodCode/FoodCode2009/ucm186451.htm#part3-6.

Section 3-401.11 deals with raw animal foods, 3-402.11 deals with parasite destruction in fish, 3-501.14 deals with cooling (within 2 hours from 57C/135F to 21C/70F, and six hours total from 57C to 5C), section 3-502.12 deals with Clostridium botulinum and Listeria monocytogenes in reduced oxygen packaging (i.e., vacuum sealed).

Parts C and D of section 3-502.12 deals with cook/chill and sous vide preparations, and are particular interesting:

C) Except for fish that is frozen before, during, and after packaging, a food establishment may not package fish using a reduced oxygen packaging method. P

D) Except as specified under ¶ © of this section, a food establishment that packages food using a cook-chill or sous vide process shall:

(1) Implement a HACCP plan that contains the information as specified under ¶ 8-201.14(D); Pf

(2) Ensure the food is:

(a) Prepared and consumed on the premises, or prepared and consumed off the premises but within the same business entity with no distribution or sale of the packaged product to another business entity or the consumer, Pf

(b) Cooked to heat all parts of the food to a temperature and for a time as specified under § 3-401.11, P

© Protected from contamination before and after cooking as specified under Parts 3-3 and 3-4, P

(d) Placed in a package with an oxygen barrier and sealed before cooking, or placed in a package and sealed immediately after cooking and before reaching a temperature below 57°C (135°F), P

(e) Cooled to 5°C (41°F) in the sealed package or bag as specified under § 3-501.14 and subsequently: P

(i) Cooled to 1°C (34°F) within 48 hours of reaching 5°C (41°F) and held at that temperature until consumed or discarded within 30 days after the date of packaging;P

(ii) Cooled to 1°C (34°F) within 48 hours of reaching 5°C (41°F), removed from refrigeration equipment that maintains a 1°C (34°F) food temperature and then held at 5°C (41°F) or less for no more than 72 hours, at which time the food must be consumed or discarded; P

(iii) Cooled to 3°C (38°F) or less within 24 hours of reaching 5°C (41°F) and held there for no more than 72 hours from packaging, at which time the food must be consumed or discarded; P or

(iv) Held frozen with no shelf life restriction while frozen until consumed or used. P

(f) Held in a refrigeration unit that is equipped with an electronic system that continuously monitors time and temperature and is visually examined for proper operation twice daily, Pf

(g) If transported off-site to a satellite location of the same business entity, equipped with verifiable electronic monitoring devices to ensure that times and temperatures are monitored during transportation, Pf and

(h) Labeled with the product name and the date packaged;Pf and

(3) Maintain the records required to confirm that cooling and cold holding refrigeration time/temperature parameters are required as part of the HACCP plan and:

(a) Make such records available to the regulatory authority upon request, Pf and

(b) Hold such records for at least 6 months; Pf and

(4) Implement written operational procedures as specified under Subparagraph (B)(5) of this section and a training program as specified under Subparagraph (B)(6) of this section.Pf

[Shalmanese]

The interior of muscle is sterile so, unless your meat is jaccarded, you can do a 30 second dip in boiling water to pasteurize the outside, then 4 hours at 50C and then bring it up to 55C to cook.

[jrshaul]

Apparently the comments on lignin were bupkis, but the issue remains - not all connective tissue breaks down at cooking temperatures. I've been warned this can be especially tricky with briskets. What do I look for?

[Robert Jueneman]

I've never had a problem with any kind of toughness or stringiness with brisket cooked at 55C for 72 hours.

There are differences (minor) in connective tissue -- see Harold McGee. But sufficient time will break down almost anything (except bone) at pasteurization temperatures.

[valereee]

Hi, all! I'm new here -- got a sous vide cooker for Christmas and am trying it out. So happy to have found this forum! I've had some success with things that were already vacuum packaged, such as preseasoned single-pack fish from Trader Joe's. But when I package my own with my foodsaver gamesaver plus in foodsaver bags, the ones with the little crosshatch-looking channels, I end up with liquid inside the bag that I think -must- be a leak -- it's WAY too much to be juices. I've been doublesealing and seem to be getting a good vacuum and seal. Am I using the wrong bags?

I searched on 'water leaks' here and didn't find anything, so my apologies if I'm asking a question that has been answered before. I've subscribed to this topic, and I promise I'll be back to check for responses!

Edit: here's a photo of a roast I tried to sous vide:

Edited February 4, 2012 by valereee (log)

[mgaretz]

Looks normal to me. I don't think you have a leak. Also remember that juices would also leak out. Is you water still clear? If so, you don't have a leak.

[valereee]

Thanks for the response, Mark! No, the water is still clear, or at least if the juices were leaking out as well as water leaking in, it was so little that it discolored the water only imperceptibly over many hours. So that's normal? Wow! Then that must be how much juice is produced but lost to the direct heat source during dry cooking?

I guess I was expecting the bag to look just about as vacuumed as it had when I started, rather than being full of liquid. The TJ's stuff I used was fish, and had only a tiny amount of liquid in the bag at the end of cooking -- maybe they just give off less juice into the bag?

Later: well, glad I came in here and asked -- I was wondering if I should pitch it! But I opened and drained it and sliced it, and it's delicious and perfectly med rare. I sliced it for sandwiches for my husband. I can definitely see myself making all my own lunch meat from now on.

So going forward -- would you all suggest a good way to get started here is to read through the Sous Vide Index and this topic?

Edited February 4, 2012 by valereee (log)

[rotuts]

glad you are into SV.

if you 'pack' items with water or juice in foodsaver or other non-vacuum chamber sealers you run the risk of some of that water being sucked up to the seal and preventing a good seal its important to understand this.

say your seal is good: cooking at 131 for however long with a 'dry' say steak leaves little juice in the finished bag

cooking say at 160 for 24 hours, say turkey dark meat not that the meat type maters leave quite a bit more juice in the bag ... excellent for 'au jus gravy' as is anything in all the bags.

what temp did you cook that meat? the temp on a well sealed bag will determine the juice in the bag.

Best of luck and isnt SV Soooooooooo Fineeeeee for meats?

[valereee]

Hi, Rotuts. I believe I cooked it at 135F for about six hours. This was a very thick (close to 2") "rib roast steak" packed by the local processor who butchered my quarter cow. I decided "rib roast steak" might be prime rib, but I've been a little stymied by their labelling -- I'm often not sure exactly what their labels mean. I salted and peppered and put a few cloves of garlic and a pat of butter into the pouch (have since learned here that I'd do better to use dehydrated garlic) and it's very good. Tender and flavorful. I was just surprised at the amount of liquid that gathered in the bag, which appeared to be still sealed -- that is, there was very little air, just what seemed like a LOT of liquid. I nuked it and strained it, will make a pan sauce to use with the slices on sandwiches.

When I sealed, I did have trouble with the moisture in the pouch, so I vacuum sealed twice then manually sealed once to be sure I had a good complete seal. It appeared to be fairly well-vacuumed when it went into the sous vide. That is, the bag was tight around the meat but there were a few little air spaces where there were uneven areas on the frozen meat.

Edited February 4, 2012 by valereee (log)

[rotuts]

val: im glad you have joined the SV Train.

eventually you will fined "Chuck" ie beef shoulder in large chunks.

why?

you will be able to pull the muscles out and bag then in relation to the grain.

that being said, you will learn the SV temp that suits you ( Im a fan of beef at 131 and turkey and chicken at 145) and for beef you will get "prime rib" every time

for the Turks and the Ckik you will get the most tender and juicy stuff you ever had. based on your dried seasonings choices.

Happy Cooking!!

[Robert Jueneman]

So going forward -- would you all suggest a good way to get started here is to read through the Sous Vide Index and this topic?

First, read Douglas Baldwin's essential screed, at http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html.

Then start with the pinned (older) sous vide eGullet thread, and read EVERYTHING.

Then buy the Modernist Cuisine set, and figure out how you are going to save enough to remodel your kitchen and buy all of the new toys you will end up wanting!

Edited February 4, 2012 by Robert Jueneman (log)

[valereee]

So going forward -- would you all suggest a good way to get started here is to read through the Sous Vide Index and this topic?

First, read Douglas Baldwin's essential screed, at http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html.

Then start with the pinned (older) sous vide eGullet thread, and read EVERYTHING.

Then buy the Modernist Cuisine set, and figure out how you are going to save enough to remodel your kitchen and buy all of the new toys you will end up wanting!

Thanks, Robert! LOL on MC -- that's on my Christmas list for next year, but my (non-cook) husband is going to be a leeeeetle sticker-shocked. He thought the Sous Vide Demi was a surprising amount of money to produce a pot of hot water.

Thanks for the link to the baldwin site -- I'll go check that out right now! I have his book (got that for Christmas too.)

Edited February 5, 2012 by valereee (log)

[valereee]

for the Turks and the Ckik you will get the most tender and juicy stuff you ever had. based on your dried seasonings choices.

Happy Cooking!!

I actually did a boneless turkey breast Christmas Day with my brand-new out-of-the-box Demi with just a couple pats of butter, salt and pepper, into the bag, into a 140 bath, and we had hot turkey sandwiches for dinner. OMG. I am going to sous vide a turkey breast next year for Thanksgiving for sure along with my normal roasted bird just to show people what turkey actually tastes like.

[Robert Jueneman]

For further (very detailed) reading, see the US Food Code at http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/RetailFoodProtection/FoodCode/FoodCode2009/ucm186451.htm#part3-6.

Section 3-401.11 deals with raw animal foods, 3-402.11 deals with parasite destruction in fish, 3-501.14 deals with cooling (within 2 hours from 57C/135F to 21C/70F, and six hours total from 57C to 5C), section 3-502.12 deals with Clostridium botulinum and Listeria monocytogenes in reduced oxygen packaging (i.e., vacuum sealed).

Parts C and D of section 3-502.12 deals with cook/chill and sous vide preparations, and are particular interesting:

C) Except for fish that is frozen before, during, and after packaging, a food establishment may not package fish using a reduced oxygen packaging method.

I'd like to thank NIck Reynolds and Douglas Baldwin for helping me to understand this provision.

According to http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/RetailFoodProtection/IndustryandRegulatoryAssistanceandTrainingResources/ucm095724.htm#slide slide 31, between 21.7% and 66.7% of fish are contaminated with Clostridium botulinum (A, B, E or F), and especially if they haven't been eviserated properly.

Normally, obvious spoilage look and smell indications would tell consumers not to eat something that had been subjected to adverse temperature storage conditions. However, Modified Atmosphere Packing, including vacuum sealing (even using the Ziplock technique) may prevent normally competing spoilage products from forming, but DO NOT prevent clostridium from creating the lethal botulism toxin from the spores, without any obvious signs of spoilage.

Freezing doesn't destroy the spores, and the threat is that improper handling (transport or storage above 0C), leaving food out to thaw, etc., could lead to increases in the spoors above safe levels.

An even more detailed discussion is available at http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/GuidanceDocuments/Seafood/FishandFisheriesProductsHazardsandControlsGuide/default.htm.

My take-away from all of this is that unlike most meat, it is probably NOT a good idea to bag and freeze raw fish for later sous vide cooking UNLESS it was frozen when you bought it, you were able to keep it frozen while driving home, and kept it frozen after bagging. Even then, you should label it to indicate that it must be kept frozen, and thawed under refrigeration and consumed within 72 hours after thawing.

There are about 10 incidents of botulism every year, but I don't know how many people were affected per incident. But it is often fatal, unless medical care and anti-toxins are immediately available, so it isn't worth the risk.

[valereee]

Hi, all! I'd like to cook a thick turkey breast and make sure I get it completely cooked in as short a time as possible. Is there a way to insert a thermometer into meat, seal the bag, and still get a seal on the bag where the wire comes out? I read on douglasbaldwin.com that you can use closed-cell foam tape to do this, but not sure of the exact steps -- do you sandwich the wire between a couple of pieces of tape, then seal across the 'sandwich' using the vacuum sealer? And what exact kind of foam tape have people had success with? Something like this: 3/16" tape on Amazon

Thanks for any advice!

Val

[Paul Bacino]

They make this stuff.. Close Cell foam tape

http://www.dougcare.com/processingequipment/sousvide2.htm

Edited February 6, 2012 by Paul Bacino (log)

[pep.]

do you sandwich the wire between a couple of pieces of tape, then seal across the 'sandwich' using the vacuum sealer?

You put a piece of the tape onto the sealed bag and push the needle probe through (into the protein).

[valereee]

LOL! I would NEVER have thought I should put the tape on the bag and then poke through it! Thanks, pep and Paul!

[vengroff]

LOL! I would NEVER have thought I should put the tape on the bag and then poke through it! Thanks, pep and Paul!

Also, note that you really need a needle probe. Here is an example. Needle probes are normally sold as a non-standard accessory for type K thermometers. A standard thickness meat thermometer probe will be more prone to leakage, even with the proper tape.

[lesliec]

... and Valereee (welcome to eG and SV, by the way), note the significance of the 'closed cell' bit in the name of the foam. Closed cell is essentially a bunch of individual little bubbles; it 'heals' from having a probe poked through it far better than non-closed cell and thus maintains the seal of your bag.

[PeteJ]

Upthread Robert posted a link to a detailed FDA document on Fish and Fishery Products Hazards and Controls Guidance, but when I clicked it I got a page not found message. Try this:

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/GuidanceDocuments/Seafood/UCM251970.pdf