Restaurant cancellation policies.

[gfweb]

Surely the cost of no-shows is figured into the overhead and accounted for in the price of the food.

If it isn't, how about raising the prices of every item by $1. That would never be noticed and ought to more than cover the loss.

how can you account for peoples rudeness?? or put the prices up 'excuse me sir I need to inform you we are charging you an extra £2 because a few tables havent turned up this week' dont think that is good practice

Are you actually in business?

You estimate how many no-shows and the cost and figure it into the prices; just like you do with the utilities or the rent or salaries.

You don't have to explain it to anyone. Just like you don't have to explain that the overhead is factored into the price of a dish.

[Brownbear]

Hey David

It is for us, as you know, we have zero passing trade, so find it very difficult to re-sell on such short notice,

The 90 pounds is worked on what we lose for a person not showing up.

The good news is if we do sell a table that has been cancelled, we refund 100% of the cancellation fee back to the guest, making all parties happy.

Hope this makes sense.

[Infrasonic]

Can entirely understand it from the restaurants point of view, with the caveat that I find it almost impossible to believe that somewhere like The Fat Duck wouldn't be able to fill a cancellation from their extensive list of wannabe diners, even at short notice. If they charge exorbitant cancellations and then fill the tables anyway then that is very naughty.

With Twitter FB etc. instant communication is very easy.

Text messaging would be a better way for confirmations as well really. I'm always getting calls from restos at inconvenient times, then have to listen to voicemail, ring them back etc. Simple text saying "your table for .... @ ....pm needs confirming by return text, no shows will be charged at £... per head" would be perfectly acceptable to me. If you get delivery confirmation you'll know they have received it.

When I had a live music venue many years ago I used to run an unofficial black list of bands that destroyed equipment, vandalised the dressing room etc. and used to share it with other venues in a ten mile radius. If it was a touring band I'd ring the other venues on the itinerary nationally and warn them.

After a while with the venues collaborating some of the bands came back to apologise or offer to pay for damage as they found it hard to get gigs...

[Edward J]

Are you actually in business?

You estimate how many no-shows and the cost and figure it into the prices; just like you do with the utilities or the rent or salaries.

You don't have to explain it to anyone. Just like you don't have to explain that the overhead is factored into the price of a dish.

I dunno about this....

The cynical/realistic/business side of me tells me that IF customers were aware that a percentage of no-shows were aaccounted and budgeted for in menu pricing, the abuse of this policy would much, much greater.

Thoughts?

[gfweb]

Stores figure in shoplifting losses. I don't think that promotes shoplifting.

But anyway the restaurant wouldn't tell people that they figure no shows into their pricing

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[mgaretz]

I have seen some restaurants in the SF Bay Area that charge you a decent amount for a cancellation, but then they send you a gift certificate for that amount so the money isn't completely lost to the patron. Doesn't work out quite so well for the restaurant since they'll have to provide food and a table at a later date, but I am guessing that they'd rather have the customer happy and coming back in than pissed off, never going back and telling all their friends the story.

[Edward J]

Stores figure in shoplifting losses. I don't think that promotes shoplifting.

But anyway the restaurant wouldn't tell people that they figure no shows into their pricing

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Yes, that's true.

However 99% of restaurant patrons kow that shoplifting is illegal, and about 75% of them figure that making a reservation and then doing a no-show is just changing thier mind.

Charging for no-shows does kind of re-inforce the idea that a no-show wreaks a bit of havoc on the whole restaurant.

I do like the idea of gift certificates with the no-show fee. A carrot AND a stick....

[KatieLoeb]

I do like the idea of gift certificates with the no-show fee. A carrot AND a stick....

Rewarding adults for bad behavior has the same or worse results as doing the same for an obnoxious child. The behavior will be repeated in hopes of getting the same reward. Even if, in this case, the net financial gain is a wash, some naughty children and dogs can't tell the difference between getting their noses rubbed in their own excrement and getting smacked with a rolled up newspaper and getting patted and praised.

[Jenni]

I do like the idea of gift certificates with the no-show fee. A carrot AND a stick....

Rewarding adults for bad behavior has the same or worse results as doing the same for an obnoxious child. The behavior will be repeated in hopes of getting the same reward. Even if, in this case, the net financial gain is a wash, some naughty children and dogs can't tell the difference between getting their noses rubbed in their own excrement and getting smacked with a rolled up newspaper and getting patted and praised.

It's not rewarding them is it though - it's actually quite a good way of making the customer come to the restaurant again as they have sort of already spent the money. The restaurant still gets paid for definite but the customer doesn't actually go away with nothing.

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[threestars]

Stores figure in shoplifting losses. I don't think that promotes shoplifting.

But anyway the restaurant wouldn't tell people that they figure no shows into their pricing

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Agree on that. Well if that really happens, I hope not all restaurants do that.

[PhilD]

Stores figure in shoplifting losses. I don't think that promotes shoplifting.

But anyway the restaurant wouldn't tell people that they figure no shows into their pricing

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My local pub in Bath (The White Hart) was full most nights and often turned the tables. But iwe often observed cancelations or no shows on Friday, usually big tables. It is a busy pub so a high probability of reselling the table, however often to fewer people and with lower odds of turning other tables. What was interesting was to observe ( I often sat at the bar) how deflated the staff were when they learned of a cancelation. They're a great professional team and I am certain it didn't detract that much but it was still there an would still have had an impact.

Given the competitiveness of the restaurant trade adding a few pounds to your price may just push you over the price point the market will bear.

Personally, I am happy to give my card details. If I have a genuine problem and the restaurant stiffs me I won't return. Sat's stance seems fair - if he resells the he refunds. In the Far Duck example a four going to a three is different proposition: how do you resell one seat? I assume the tack the restaurant for the optimum number of people based on the party sizes thus a single drop out from a table is a tricky proposition to recoup. And given it is set pricing they won't make it up by upselling a few side dishes.

[gfweb]

I'd much rather pay a extra few bucks to offset no shows than get charged a big number if I have to cancel. That would infuriate me.

I know that's illogical since I'd end up paying more in the long run.

I honestly don't understand why restaurant owners risk pissing us off with charging for missed reservations when they could have their damage mitigated permanantly with a small price increase that would go unnoticed.

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[mkayahara]

I'd much rather pay a extra few bucks to offset no shows than get charged a big number if I have to cancel. That would infuriate me.

Conversely, why should I have to pay more for my dinner because you failed to show? I never pull a no-show if I can help it, and if there's an emergency that makes it unavoidable, then I accept the cancellation charge as part of the cost of the emergency.

Of course, this is just like the tipping discussion; we're never going to get everyone to agree that one approach is the best.

[gfweb]

Agree on both points.

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[MarkAli]

we dont take CC apart from tables of over 6 persons because that means we need to use 2 tables up and reduces the amount of potential customers we could serve that service,

however we do still have no shows on every night of the week this year alone we have had 97 tables not turn up or be bothered to even cancel!!!

most cancelations can be resold with 48 hrs but no shows are rude and make me want to start a CC policy!!

Mark, thats a staggering amount of no shows. I really am taken aback by how rife this is throughout the industry.

Problem is there must be a small percentage of people who would not be prepared to give credit card details out and it could be equally costly in putting people off in the first place.

It would certainly sort the wheat from the chaff if you did insist on a credit card, but would it work?

From my experience of booking with you I know you take telephone numbers, I did not get a call pre arrival, could this help out a bit if your reception double checked in advance of arrival? I normally get a call in advance from most of the London restaurants.

At the very least if you were full on the night it would perhaps forewarn you of a no show enabling you to sell on the table.

BTW, I'm not after a job

we do call to confirm 24hrs in advance for most services including all evening services, lunches arnt as much of a problem, but even when people confirm they still dont show sometime or they book within the 24 hour period then dont show!! it is not the cancelations that are the problem mostly just the no shows!!

and we had a 2 more tables no show this lunch time which had booked this morning!!!!

[MarkAli]

Are you actually in business?

You estimate how many no-shows and the cost and figure it into the prices; just like you do with the utilities or the rent or salaries.

You don't have to explain it to anyone. Just like you don't have to explain that the overhead is factored into the price of a dish.

I dunno about this....

The cynical/realistic/business side of me tells me that IF customers were aware that a percentage of no-shows were aaccounted and budgeted for in menu pricing, the abuse of this policy would much, much greater.

Thoughts?

yes I run a succesful businees and do so by bieng honest with my prices and Pricing structure!! people should pay for what they have reciieved on the given product only not for people who cant be arsed phoning to say sorry I cant make it today,

let me know if your in cambridge thoug Ill do you a special deal for all the people that havent turned up this year!!

[Edward J]

These are all good points, but I want to go bck to my kid's orthodontist:

A $20 late fee and a $50 no-show. These were the terms when I signed on the dotted line for my kid's smile.

Judging by the practice hours (Tue to Fri. mornings) and the golf and expensive vacation and home decorating magazines in the waiting room, the good doctor doesn't need the money fom charging for no-shows.

So why does he do it?

To get the idea across that no-shows put a wrench the in system.

Building a small charge into the menu price that would cover for no-shows does nothing to educate the guest or to "remind" him that no-shows really throws a wrench into the restaurant's operations.

[david goodfellow]

One thing is for sure... That this is a great debate, and a bit of an eye opener. Plus its good to see views from both sides.

Just goes to show, you can't please all of the people, etc, etc.

Not sure now as to where I stand on this.

I shall sit on the fence for now.

[Brownbear]

One thing is for sure... That this is a great debate, and a bit of an eye opener. Plus its good to see views from both sides.

Just goes to show, you can't please all of the people, etc, etc.

Not sure now as to where I stand on this.

I shall sit on the fence for now.

How did I guess, Chicken..........I think we should all accept, I too have been charged Cancellations for reduction in numbers with 48 hours notice, and no I didn't mind as I had read the cancellation policy.

[Infrasonic]

We live in a world of credit checks, background checks etc.etc. Surely it is not beyond the whit of the restaurants to run some form of list for persistent no showers. If you have a name and a mobile no.

Don't the online services like open table etc. have a log system for this?

[david goodfellow]

One thing is for sure... That this is a great debate, and a bit of an eye opener. Plus its good to see views from both sides.

Just goes to show, you can't please all of the people, etc, etc.

Not sure now as to where I stand on this.

I shall sit on the fence for now.

How did I guess, Chicken..........I think we should all accept, I too have been charged Cancellations for reduction in numbers with 48 hours notice, and no I didn't mind as I had read the cancellation policy.

48 hours is more acceptable than 72 to me, chuck . 24 hours is far better. I can however, (off the top of my head) only think of the Fat Duck who charges anything like your cancellation charge of £95.

The last place that asked for card details charged a flat rate £25 pp for cancellations/no shows. No one can compain at that, surely.

Can I ask what you paid per person in reduction charge and was it in the UK?

Out of all the Michelin and any other restaurants that we have dined at this year, (and that is very many indeed), less than a handful have asked for credit card details.

Not sure even if The Ledbury or Gavroche or Helene Darroze asked me for one. Truly a tiny minority.

As I stated at the start of this article I have every sympathy for restaurants who have to suffer the uncaring, selfish craphead people who no show. I'm not sure as to the ultimate answer to the problem is, but this thread has thrown up a few food for thought ideas.

I may throw caution to the wind and book a table with you, (trouble is now I am unable to book under a pseudonym, as I would have to give credit card details).

Would this affect my treatment in your establishment.

[pastrygirl]

Don't the online services like open table etc. have a log system for this?

Open table will show how many times a guest has reserved, canceled, and no-showed at your restaurant. I've heard that OT will cancel the accounts of people who no-show too many times in one year over all the reservations made on the system, not sure if that is true or what the number is.

[Brownbear]

One thing is for sure... That this is a great debate, and a bit of an eye opener. Plus its good to see views from both sides.

Just goes to show, you can't please all of the people, etc, etc.

Not sure now as to where I stand on this.

I shall sit on the fence for now.

How did I guess, Chicken..........I think we should all accept, I too have been charged Cancellations for reduction in numbers with 48 hours notice, and no I didn't mind as I had read the cancellation policy.

48 hours is more acceptable than 72 to me, chuck . 24 hours is far better. I can however, (off the top of my head) only think of the Fat Duck who charges anything like your cancellation charge of £95.

The last place that asked for card details charged a flat rate £25 pp for cancellations/no shows. No one can compain at that, surely.

Can I ask what you paid per person in reduction charge and was it in the UK?

Out of all the Michelin and any other restaurants that we have dined at this year, (and that is very many indeed), less than a handful have asked for credit card details.

Not sure even if The Ledbury or Gavroche or Helene Darroze asked me for one. Truly a tiny minority.

As I stated at the start of this article I have every sympathy for restaurants who have to suffer the uncaring, selfish craphead people who no show. I'm not sure as to the ultimate answer to the problem is, but this thread has thrown up a few food for thought ideas.

I may throw caution to the wind and book a table with you, (trouble is now I am unable to book under a pseudonym, as I would have to give credit card details).

Would this affect my treatment in your establishment.

Ha Ha, very funny, Unfortunatley all the restos you have mentioned are in London.....

If you came would I treat you any different? of course not, we might have a chat over this subject after the meal, but don't worry, no preferential treatment will be displayed....

[PhilD]

I'd much rather pay a extra few bucks to offset no shows than get charged a big number if I have to cancel. That would infuriate me.

I know that's illogical since I'd end up paying more in the long run.

I honestly don't understand why restaurant owners risk pissing us off with charging for missed reservations when they could have their damage mitigated permanantly with a small price increase that would go unnoticed.

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I really do resent paying for other peoples bad manners and selfishness. I also resent paying for shoplifters etc. Just because shops do doesn't make it a logically transferable model.

I rarely cancel my reservations, and if I can't honor a reservation I always call with as much notice as possible. I will happily provide my credit card details and never really think twice about it - although Waku Ghin in Singapore made me swallow hard at £230 per head.

Why do we object to this practice at resturants? Hotels charge for no shows and alway take credit card details. Airline and train tickets will have charges for changes or no-shows unless you book premium tickets at a high price. Think how popuar "lastminute.com" is, they carge full freight up-front and no refunds if plans change.

Making the link between restaurant bookings and shop theft is ilogical and invalid: In the shop model it is more cost effective to put a small amount on the cost of goods rather than paying far more for greater numbers of staff or higher technology solutions. I bet it is far less expensive to accept some "shrinkage" rather than police zero tolerance. But the restaurant model is different it allows a simple remedy, you pay a deposit if you want to book. If you don't accept the terms you don't book and you don't go. In effect you exchange a verbal contract at the time of booking, you don't when you walk into a shop. That said it would be good if resturants compensated me for lengthy waits for tables rather than trying to extract more money by depositing me in their expensive bars - remember there are some dodgy practices here as well - comping a drink may be a nice gesture if I have to wait for a tardy diner to vacate my table (although often there is no tardy diner!).

I was interested, but not surprised, by the credit card companies stance in this area. Do they really support the mongrels who try to wriggle out of these charges? Maybe on-line booking is the way to go with explicit T&C's that are agreed to at the time of booking, I assume that gives far less wriggle room.

Edited November 19, 2011 by PhilD (log)

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Agree with much of what you wrote, Phil. FWIW, this summer when a close family member had extraordinary health issues (ICU, etc.), we needed to cancel a trip to France and all reservations for food and lodging. First class airline forfeitures were in the thousands per person, restaurants zero, lodging $300. for one sticky country inn. Life happens.