Technological Cooking

[PedroG]

I think sous vide cooks are (or should be) the kind of people not just asking for the "how to" (recipes), but for the "why", i.e. curious cooks reading books of Harold McGee, Nathan Myhrvold, and the like. This knowledge can significantly help cooking better with traditional methods as well, e.g. knowing the temperature ranges and actions of the tenderizing enzymes calpaines, cathepsines and collagenases, which makes us understand Harold McGee's "Guidelines for Succulent Braises and Stews" which I cited in the old sous vide topic. My personal experience with tough meat 48h/55^oC sous vide is that some thick tendons may escape enzymatic denaturation, as collagenase sits in the sarcoplasm (the cytoplasm of muscle cells) and has a long way to travel into thick tendons. A workaround might be cooking below 60^oC until the thin collagen sheaths (endomysium and perimysium) surrounding the muscle fibers have been enzymatically hydrolysed by collagenases, thus avoiding contraction of intact collagen sheaths at temperatures above 60^oC, squeezing juices out of the muscle cells. Subsequent heating to temperatures between 75^oC and 80^oC will hydrolyse thick tendons and fasciae thermally.

[ChrisTaylor]

You know, you could always do what a lot of eGulleters have done--rig up a cheap (or DIY) PID controller to, say, a large rice cooker or crock pot--and simply play with the technique. Then if you like it you can invest in something more serious.

[PedroG]

My final statement in this string. I have enjoyed and have been enlightened by the discourse. I am a technophile and was looking for justification to add another device to my crowded kitchen space. I think I have found a limited place for sous vide in my cooking arsenal. I will probably wait until the cost of good immersion circulaters comes down since I don't believe I would be using this more than several times a month. PedroG's lunch was the coup de grace!

boudin noir, welcome in the community of sous vide cooks!

You don't have to wait until you can afford an immersion circulator, you might start like I did. When it comes to long time cooking, a PID controller (DIY or SVM) and a bucket heater (or FreshMealsMagic) will do, eventually enhanced by an aquarium bubbler (supporting higher temperatures than fountain pumps).

Have fun! And don't be scared by cholesterol in food, as 70% of your circulating cholesterol comes from your liver, not from the food.

[dcarch]

My system:

Aquarium temperature controller - $20.00

Fountain pump - $10.00

Emersion heater - $10.00

I have been using mine almost everyday for many months now.

Going to build another system

dcarch

[mgaretz]

I think sous vide cooks are (or should be) the kind of people not just asking for the "how to" (recipes), but for the "why", i.e. curious cooks reading books of Harold McGee, Nathan Myhrvold, and the like. This knowledge can significantly help cooking better with traditional methods as well, e.g. knowing the temperature ranges and actions of the tenderizing enzymes calpaines, cathepsines and collagenases, which makes us understand Harold McGee's "Guidelines for Succulent Braises and Stews" which I cited in the old sous vide topic. My personal experience with tough meat 48h/55^oC sous vide is that some thick tendons may escape enzymatic denaturation, as collagenase sits in the sarcoplasm (the cytoplasm of muscle cells) and has a long way to travel into thick tendons. A workaround might be cooking below 60^oC until the thin collagen sheaths (endomysium and perimysium) surrounding the muscle fibers have been enzymatically hydrolysed by collagenases, thus avoiding contraction of intact collagen sheaths at temperatures above 60^oC, squeezing juices out of the muscle cells. Subsequent heating to temperatures between 75^oC and 80^oC will hydrolyse thick tendons and fasciae thermally.

Um, Pedro, could you say that in English? Seriously, an example with times and temps to try would be great!

[ScottyBoy]

Food is a huge arena, when people have time on their hands over thousands of years they like to play with their food. When they pull it off, great. When they don't, sh*t. These "new" advances and techniques are just another way of playing with food and trying to improve on something that has been around since the age of man...

[nickrey]

I think sous vide cooks are (or should be) the kind of people not just asking for the "how to" (recipes), but for the "why", i.e. curious cooks reading books of Harold McGee, Nathan Myhrvold, and the like. This knowledge can significantly help cooking better with traditional methods as well, e.g. knowing the temperature ranges and actions of the tenderizing enzymes calpaines, cathepsines and collagenases, which makes us understand Harold McGee's "Guidelines for Succulent Braises and Stews" which I cited in the old sous vide topic. My personal experience with tough meat 48h/55^oC sous vide is that some thick tendons may escape enzymatic denaturation, as collagenase sits in the sarcoplasm (the cytoplasm of muscle cells) and has a long way to travel into thick tendons. A workaround might be cooking below 60^oC until the thin collagen sheaths (endomysium and perimysium) surrounding the muscle fibers have been enzymatically hydrolysed by collagenases, thus avoiding contraction of intact collagen sheaths at temperatures above 60^oC, squeezing juices out of the muscle cells. Subsequent heating to temperatures between 75^oC and 80^oC will hydrolyse thick tendons and fasciae thermally.

Um, Pedro, could you say that in English? Seriously, an example with times and temps to try would be great!

If I may.

PedroG is saying that cooking could potentially be done in two separate stages. The first burst would be below 60C to ensure that everything except tough collagens and fibrous tissues are cooked as we have become accustomed to with sous vide such that they are tender and their juices are retained. He is then proposing a second cooking at a higher temperature to deal with the other more gristly bits. Presumably the earlier cooking will stop the more temperature sensitive pieces from shedding much of their juices as they would if you put them immediately into the higher temperature water bath.

Look forward to hearing the results of your experiments on this PedroG.

[PedroG]

This discussion is continued in the main sous vide topic.

[boudin noir]

My last final statement. PedroG you're correct. Blood cholesterol is not influenced much by ingested cholesterol. Eggs which are loaded with cholesterol are no longer verboten to patients suffering from coronary disease. Most blood cholesterol is indeed produced in the liver. However the amount of cholesterol produced is influenced to a significant degree by the amount of saturated fat ingested. Your decadent lunch would drive the liver into a cholesterol making frenzy. - My bona fides: I'm a cardiologist. Coronary artery disease was my major focus.

[Robert Jueneman]

Professionally, I'm a cryptographer/computer scientist, not a physician, and certainly not a professional chef, but I've been using sous vide for about five years now for virtually everything I cook. At last count I had a total of seven different sous vide machines/water baths in my kitchen, and I can barely remember how to cook on the grill, or in the oven, or the microwave. I use the stovetop primarily to sear my sous vide steak, lamb chop, etc., after removing it from the bath.

Some people complain about the cost of sous vide equipment, but the cost of all of my sous vide equipment put together cost less considerably less in total than just one of my high-end Canon cameras, yet has brought me more satisfaction, much less gustatory delight. You have to put things in perspective.

Some things simply can't be done any other way. Take for example a medium rare brisket, cooked for 72 hours at 55C, or a meltingly tender chuck steak for 24 hours at the same temperature, for far less cost than a filet or tenderloin.

Most vegetables are also greatly improved, e.g., corn on the cob sous vide at 60C for 30 minutes with a little butter and some chipotle powder.

Chacan a son gout!

Bob

[PedroG]

I think sous vide cooks are (or should be) the kind of people not just asking for the "how to" (recipes), but for the "why", i.e. curious cooks reading books of Harold McGee, Nathan Myhrvold, and the like. This knowledge can significantly help cooking better with traditional methods as well, e.g. knowing the temperature ranges and actions of the tenderizing enzymes calpaines, cathepsines and collagenases, which makes us understand Harold McGee's "Guidelines for Succulent Braises and Stews" which I cited in the old sous vide topic. My personal experience with tough meat 48h/55^oC sous vide is that some thick tendons may escape enzymatic denaturation, as collagenase sits in the sarcoplasm (the cytoplasm of muscle cells) and has a long way to travel into thick tendons. A workaround might be cooking below 60^oC until the thin collagen sheaths (endomysium and perimysium) surrounding the muscle fibers have been enzymatically hydrolysed by collagenases, thus avoiding contraction of intact collagen sheaths at temperatures above 60^oC, squeezing juices out of the muscle cells. Subsequent heating to temperatures between 75^oC and 80^oC will hydrolyse thick tendons and fasciae thermally.

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calpaines, cathepsines and collagenases