Making 'Modernist' process cheeses at home

[Tri2Cook]

So roughly 60 percent liquid for Heston and 70 percent liquid for Linda. The only difference in the bulk ingredients (liquid-wise) seems to be the drier cheeses used. It'd be interesting to see if those recipes produce a sliceable cheese product. These two recipes use about half of the sodium citrate of the mac & cheese recipe also.

I might have to sacrifice a chunk o' cheese tomorrow to at least answer the freeze / thaw question.

Larry

I assumed the higher ratio of liquid in Linda's recipe was to accomodate the drier cheese used. I've done both, neither produces a sliceable result. Heston's is poured to desired thickness on a tray, chilled to set, then cut to size. Linda's is rolled between sheets of plastic wrap to the desired thickness then chilled and cut. Of course I didn't try freezing either of them as directed in the MC recipe (which didn't exist, at least not publicly, at that time) so I don't know if the carrageenan is helping get a result that can be grated or if it's doing something else and the freezing does that job. The carrageenan obviously plays a role or it wouldn't be in there, I'm just not sure exactly what part it's playing. Maybe the book explains it, I don't have it (yet).

Feels almost like a conversation with myself when I see your signature... I'm Larry also.

[gfweb]

Kenji Alt has a similar prep in his food blog and a nice discussion of why it makes sense. http://aht.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/09/the-burger-lab-cheese-sauce-for-burgers-fries-and-chips.html

[avaserfi]

Is any liquid suitable for a sodium citrate emulsion? I made a tomato-beer stock tonight that I want to use as the liquid base for grilled cheese sandwiches as soon as my iota comes in the mail. Since I don't have Modernist Cuisine yet, I am trying to figure out the best proportions to use. Based on what I have read I have a guess recipe for a cheese that will be solid enough to cut into slices when frozen. Can anyone with more knowledge of the methods in Modernist Cuisine or this technique comment?

150g Tomato-Beer Stock

4.5g Sodium citrate

5g salt

1.25g iota carrageenan

200g Bergblumen Kase

100g Parmesan Reggiano

Edited April 21, 2011 by avaserfi (log)

[Florida]

I don’t have a copy of MC and I don’t have one on order. However, I am quite interested in the mac and cheese recipe, which is odd, since I hate mac and cheese. Never-the-less, I’ve been trying to figure out a way to obtain the necessary sodium citrate and iota carrageenan without dropping $50+ for a pound of carrageenan that only has a shelf life of one year. (If someone wants to gift me some iota, I will more than happily send you some homebrew. Seriously, send me a PM.)

From my research, it appears the sodium citrate is used to stabilize emulsified fat while the iota carrageenan’s purpose is to form a “gel” between the ingredients and stabilize that gel so it can be frozen and thawed.

As to the OP, if your intent is to make the queso so that it can be frozen, I believe you will need the iota carrageenan.

[avaserfi]

I don’t have a copy of MC and I don’t have one on order. However, I am quite interested in the mac and cheese recipe, which is odd, since I hate mac and cheese. Never-the-less, I’ve been trying to figure out a way to obtain the necessary sodium citrate and iota carrageenan without dropping $50+ for a pound of carrageenan that only has a shelf life of one year. (If someone wants to gift me some iota, I will more than happily send you some homebrew. Seriously, send me a PM.)

From my research, it appears the sodium citrate is used to stabilize emulsified fat while the iota carrageenan’s purpose is to form a “gel” between the ingredients and stabilize that gel so it can be frozen and thawed.

As to the OP, if your intent is to make the queso so that it can be frozen, I believe you will need the iota carrageenan.

I have one pound of iota on its way (expected Monday) which is far more than I could use in a year. I am skeptical of its shelf life being so short because it seems most shelf life/expiration estimates are very conservative. I would gladly split it up and send some over at my cost which will probably be about $7-8 for 50 grams in a zip top bag (I have a scale accurate to a tenth of a gram). I'm not interest in making any money, just getting ingredients in more people's hands and not wasting ingredients that could potentially go bad.

If you need I have some spare sodium citrate as well, although that is far more accessible and inexpensive than iota.

If anyone is interested, you can shoot me a pm.

Edited for grammar.

Edited April 21, 2011 by avaserfi (log)

[emannths]

Maybe we should start a WTB/WTT/FS thread in the Kitchen Consumer forum to facilitate this sort of thing...

[jsmeeker]

As to the OP, if your intent is to make the queso so that it can be frozen, I believe you will need the iota carrageenan.

My intent isn't really to freeze the FINISHED queso. Rather, my goal is to make queso from "process cheese" I make in advance and have stored somewhere (fridge or freezer). This is simply a function of convenience. Certainly in some cases I may go directly from raw ingreidents (cheese, beer, water, sodium citrate, etc.) directly to a queso that then gets served and consumed. In a case like that, I think dropping the cargeenan would be fine.

[jsmeeker]

Maybe we should start a WTB/WTT/FS thread in the Kitchen Consumer forum to facilitate this sort of thing...

What do these letters all mean? I think "WTB" is "what to buy". Not sure about the others, though. For "what to buy", there is a good topic on "Modernist Ingredient Kits" over in Kitchen Consumer. you can find it right here

[Phaz]

I don’t have a copy of MC and I don’t have one on order. However, I am quite interested in the mac and cheese recipe, which is odd, since I hate mac and cheese. Never-the-less, I’ve been trying to figure out a way to obtain the necessary sodium citrate and iota carrageenan without dropping $50+ for a pound of carrageenan that only has a shelf life of one year. (If someone wants to gift me some iota, I will more than happily send you some homebrew. Seriously, send me a PM.)

From my research, it appears the sodium citrate is used to stabilize emulsified fat while the iota carrageenan’s purpose is to form a “gel” between the ingredients and stabilize that gel so it can be frozen and thawed.

As to the OP, if your intent is to make the queso so that it can be frozen, I believe you will need the iota carrageenan.

Willpowdersells smaller quantities of that stuff.

[emannths]

Sorry about the acronyms--WTB: want to buy / WTT: want to trade / ISO: in search of / FS: for sale / FT: for trade.

[cbread]

Maybe we should start a WTB/WTT/FS thread in the Kitchen Consumer forum to facilitate this sort of thing...

Sounds good to me.

[avaserfi]

Jet City Gastrophysics put up a post involving a constructed cheese slice today using a recipe from Modernist Cuisine. No recipe, just a list of ingredients, but they are very different from what we have been talking about. Sodium citrate, sodium phosphate, cheese and whey protein.

I wish they discussed the quantities and process a little more, but this might be useful.

http://jetcitygastrophysics.com/2011/04/22/modernist-cuisine-at-home-ham-and-cheese-omelet/

[jsmeeker]

Jet City Gastrophysics put up a post involving a constructed cheese slice today using a recipe from Modernist Cuisine. No recipe, just a list of ingredients, but they are very different from what we have been talking about. Sodium citrate, sodium phosphate, cheese and whey protein.

I wish they discussed the quantities and process a little more, but this might be useful.

http://jetcitygastrophysics.com/2011/04/22/modernist-cuisine-at-home-ham-and-cheese-omelet/

There are at least two different "process cheese" recipes in MC that I am aware of. One is for a mac and chees. the other is for the burger. There are differnces in them because the end results are different. In one, you want a nice creamy sauce. For the other, you really aren't looking for a sauce.

[Jethro]

Jet City Gastrophysics put up a post involving a constructed cheese slice today using a recipe from Modernist Cuisine. No recipe, just a list of ingredients, but they are very different from what we have been talking about. Sodium citrate, sodium phosphate, cheese and whey protein.

I wish they discussed the quantities and process a little more, but this might be useful.

http://jetcitygastrophysics.com/2011/04/22/modernist-cuisine-at-home-ham-and-cheese-omelet/

Hi -

I was following the book, which is 2% sodium citrate, 1% whey protein concentrate, and 1.2% sodium phosphate (fibrisol brand). I had two issues:

1. My digital scale isn't sensitive enough. It only starts registering at 2 grams, and doesn't do fractions of a gram (i.e. 2.5 grams). So I guesstimated a bit, which probably explains my second problem.

2. I couldn't get the pH down to the level they recommend. Actually it went up as I added more salts. I don't know if it turned out fine or not, since I've never had a silky thin cheese spread before.

I've attached a photo of what it looks like as of this morning out of the fridge. It has the consistency of margarine. A perfectly good spread. Actually kinda awesome.

Jethro

[mkayahara]

The omelet looks cool, Jethro, although I'm not sure "spongy" is a word I'd want associated with my eggs. Have you tried remelting the cheese spread since chilling it? (Or did you do that for the omelet anyway?) Also, looking at the book (volume 4, p. 223, right?), it appears you went with the "thin cheese spread," whereas it says the "thick cheese spread" is the one they recommend for the cheese omelet. I get that the point isn't to slavishly follow the book, but I'm curious why you went with one over the other? Thanks!

Edit: Add page reference. And then again for clarity.

Edited April 22, 2011 by mkayahara (log)

[emannths]

Fibrisol sells a number of phosphate systems for use in dairy products, each of which may have a different effect on pH depending on which phosphates are used in the formulation. Is SDS2 the one that MC calls for?

[Jethro]

Thanks! It's not an eye-catching presentation, but hey, I'm just cooking for myself at home. I'm easy on the service in my establishment.

So, I just melted it. Picture below. It has a mealy texture, so I definitely did not nail it. I think with a more accurate scale, I might be able to produce a more consistent result.

The ham and omelet recipe on p.95 calls for thinly spread cheese, so yes, I slavishly followed the book. Except for the brown butter. I must always justify the expense of the centrifuge...

J

[Jethro]

Fibrisol sells a number of phosphate systems for use in dairy products, each of which may have a different effect on pH depending on which phosphates are used in the formulation. Is SDS2 the one that MC calls for?

For fondue and thinly spread cheese, yes. For a cheese slice for baking they recommend disodium phosphate.

[mkayahara]

The ham and omelet recipe on p.95 calls for thinly spread cheese, so yes, I slavishly followed the book. Except for the brown butter. I must always justify the expense of the centrifuge...

Good point: It does say "thinly spread" on p. 95, and then on p. 223, it says that the "thick cheese sauce/spread" is the "best choice for use in ... cheese omelet." A rather minor inconsistency, as such things go.

And I'm totally jealous of your centrifuge, but more so of your combi oven!

[avaserfi]

My ingredients arrived a little early, so I tried my hand at making a constructed cheese using some of the advice I got from @jcgastrophysics on twitter (user Jethro on eG?). Per his instructions I used 2% sodium citrate, 3% iota carrageenan, 1% kappa carrageenan. I decided on a 2:1 ratio of cheese to liquid based on other (sodium citrate only) recipes I have read. The end result is the recipe below:

60g of tomato-beer stock (slice tomatoes and some homebrew APA pressure cooked for 20 minutes at 15psi, natural release)

3.6g sodium citrate

5.4 grams iota carrageenan

1.8g kappa carrageenan

5.2g salt

120g Bergblumen Kase, grated

I added the stock, salts and carrageenans to a sauce pan and put them on the heat. Right away they formed a thick roux-like paste. I whisked and whisked on low heat until there were no dry ingredients left and as grainy. I added the cheese and switch to a silicon spatula. While still on low heat (about 150 degrees F) I kept mixing and watched the mixture turn from a grainy mess to a smooth dough like consistency. A little longer and it started to become stringy, but wasn't runny. I think the large quantities of carrageenans gelled it much thicker. Once it looked very smooth and I couldn't detect any grain when tasting I formed a large clump of it and spread it out on a silicon baking sheet, then I put it in the fridge to cool it.

A couple notes:

1) The cheese was easily workable right out of the saucepan, while still warm. I could have cut it into any shape I wanted easily. It wasn't gooey at all. Almost like a very soft dough.

2) The tomato-beer stock flavor is very subtle, but present. Water could probably be used to impart no flavor to the cheese.

3) I could detect no off flavors from the 'modernist' ingredients.

4) Depending on application and the cheese used this recipe might have too much salt. Alone the cheese is a touch too salty, melted on bread it is balanced perfectly.

5) When cool the cheese has a slightly grainy texture if rubbed between the tongue and roof of mouth, this goes away when warmed.

6) It has decent stretch and is much softer/gooey when melted then it was before, but not not to the extent that American cheese is, it doesn't have that unctuous gooeyness.

I will try to get better pictures up ASAP. I'll probably make the grilled cheese sandwiches tomorrow for dinner so hopefully tomorrow evening.

If one wanted to make a more gooey cheese, I'd guess either cutting back on the carrageenans or using more liquid is the way to go? Any thoughts?

Pictures:

Chilled and cut a couple thin slices:

Rolled the slices into a ball to show texture and consistency:

Quickly melted and stretch (I did this in a microwave, and had it go a few seconds too long):

[LoftyNotions]

I made a basic modernist cheese without carrageenans to test what effect freezing would have without them.

My ingredients were:

Cheddar 215 G

Beer 130 G

Sodium Citrate 7.5 G

Salt 3.2 G

The grated cheese melted very easily into the beer / citrate mixture

Since we're trying this to find out if it will work for queso, I took pictures as best I could at several temperatures.

175 degrees

165 degrees

155 degrees

145 degrees

135 degrees

125 degrees

115 degrees

Also 115 degrees

The transition from sauce to cheese seemed to me to happen at 125 and below.

I froze the cheese overnight and thawed it to room temperature. Its consistency was quite a bit softer than processed cheese slices. It did hold its form, but was spreadable. I didn't bother reheating it.

The main point of this experiment was to see if it would retain its smoothness after freezing. Even with just the sodium citrate there was no coarseness.

Here are some pictures taken after thawing to room temperature:

It doesn't seem that carrageenans are necessary to keep the cheese from turning granular.

I wouldn't add the salt if I did this again.

HTH,

Larry

Edited April 22, 2011 by LoftyNotions (log)

[jsmeeker]

Wow..That's awesome! Thanks for going through all of that effort. Are you going to try to re-heat it to a sauce like state? I want to know if it will return to that state without breaking.

How did you find the consistency for dipping chips? Was it too thick at the highest temp? (175)

[LoftyNotions]

Wow..That's awesome! Thanks for going through all of that effort. Are you going to try to re-heat it to a sauce like state? I want to know if it will return to that state without breaking.

How did you find the consistency for dipping chips? Was it too thick at the highest temp? (175)

I'm really glad you asked, because I had only answered half the freezing question. It's also a good thing my wife hadn't sacrificed the cheese to the dogs.

As I started heating the cheese, it looked like it was severely broken. I ran to get the camera, but by the time I got back it had fully re-incorporated.

As far as sauce thickness at temperature, I felt it was still dipable probably down to even 115 degrees. It was a bit thick at that temperature, but you can hold more cheese that way, right? It actually seemed pretty thin to me at 175. In the following pictures, I'd guess the cheese temperature was around 135 to 145. (Highly unscientific).

[avaserfi]

Here is a grilled cheese picture. We are having a late dinner so I made a small snack. For the shot, I made the grilled cheese then separated the bread for the shot, to get a close up of the cheese. Tasted great, but not quite the texture I'm shooting for. Does anyone have any ideas? It certainly looks like LoftyNotions version would be closer to the texture I'm looking for, but maybe a little too gooey.

I think next time I will try using the same amount of sodium citrate, but cut out the kappa carrageenan and drop the iota carrageenan down to 2% compared to the less than half a percent in the posted mac and cheese recipe.

Edited April 22, 2011 by avaserfi (log)

[emannths]

avaserfi (et al): keep an eye out of industrial tips for making processed cheese. Many manufacturers of things like carrageenan have reference recipes, like this one for a block of processed cheese. If this recipe is accurate, you've got way too much carrageenan in your formulation--they suggest 0.25% (though they don't indicated what variety).

Speaking of industrial literature, print this out an read it. It's a comprehensive, fantastic review of all aspects of processed cheese: Processed Cheese Reveiw.