Seasonal-local-organic and Asian restaurants

[Fat Guy]

Is the seasonal-local-organic ethic something pretty much confined to Western restaurants? It seems to me that, for example, every great Japanese restaurant I know of is buying fish from all over the world -- proudly. I haven't been to a Chinese, Thai, Korean, etc., restaurant that seems to make a point of using seasonal-local-organic ingredients. Is this a valid observation and if so why? Or am I wrong? And what does it all mean?

[Jenni]

I will confess that I have not eaten much Japanese food, but from what I have read I understood that they are very in to seasonal dishes made with seasonal ingredients and even carefully plated to represent the season. So I would imagine that there must be restaurants that specialise in this. Maybe it's just Japanese restuarants in the US that don't?

[dcarch]

Your are in NYC?

As you know many Chinese restaurants have fish tanks serving live seafood. Is that seasonal?

I would guess many veggies come form green houses. Is that seasonal?

I have not seen any ethnic organic restaurants either.

dcarch

[Jeffery C]

If anything, I think it is Western Culture that in the past promoted the ability to source outside of the "local" area. Although sticking to local sources for ingredients has been a grass roots movement since the Hippie 60s, it has only been in the past 5-6 years that it has been widely embraced by the culinary profession and become a hip thing to talk about with your friends.

As for the Chinese, Thai, & Korean restaurants, sourcing ingredients for these cuisines is nearly impossible to "go local" unless the restaurants are in an area with a large enough asian population to warrant local farmers to grow items that are common in these cultures.

As far as fish goes, for example, nothing is quite like a Dover Sole straight from Holland. I can understand the need to buy fish from the four corners, especially if you are land locked. Besides, less than 1% of this nations restaurants have access to great "local" fish markets

Edited March 25, 2011 by Jeffery C (log)

[jsmeeker]

Are we talking about western restaurants vs. asian restaurants in the United States or other western nationas or are you comparing restaurants located in western nations to restaurants located in asian nations?

[Fat Guy]

In terms of North America, I think the observation is relatively factual: local-seasonal-organic is a Western-restaurant thing, particularly at the high end. I'm asking about the rest of the world and whether it's a cultural difference or just a local phenomenon on my continent.

[weinoo]

Yeah, I totally agree with your original premise. Certainly, great sushi restaurants take pride in their offerings, but seasonality has less to do with that.

I suppose one product line where our (meaning United States' based) Asian restaurants might serve seasonal dishes is shellfish - specifically, live Maine lobster and live dungeness crab. They both have seasons. What we need is to see them stir-fried with local asparagus and ramps.

[Jeffery C]

In terms of North America, I think the observation is relatively factual: local-seasonal-organic is a Western-restaurant thing, particularly at the high end. I'm asking about the rest of the world and whether it's a cultural difference or just a local phenomenon on my continent.

Ten years ago I enjoyed meals at many Austrian restaurants, in and around Vienna, high end to "mom & pop" types and each and everyone of them sourced the majority of their ingredients from local,seasonal sources.

[Chris Amirault]

My travels in Japan and Thailand suggest that, indeed, many restaurants are seasonal, but not because someone's pushing a local/artisanal/seasonal shtick. Rather, products are truly seasonal, and restaurants serve, say, unagi when it's eel season.

[thampik]

I would venture to suggest that the majority of "normal" asian resataurants in asia are using seasonal ingredients - not beacause of ethical reasons, but because they are more readily available and are cheaper. High-end asian restaurants are probably more prone to using non-local, non-seasonal ingredients because that is what defines luxury.

[Kent Wang]

I think I recall Yasuda at Sushi Yasuda saying that he only gets fish that are in season. Of course some fish are always in season, but not all. I think he said that if I were to come six months later, his offerings would be quite different. I'm not totally sure it was Yasuda that said this, but I know for sure Oyama-san at Oyama in Shanghai, a similar high-end sushi restaurant, also said this to me.

I would venture to suggest that the majority of "normal" asian resataurants in asia are using seasonal ingredients - not beacause of ethical reasons, but because they are more readily available and are cheaper.

Very true. Many ingredients in China are simply not available (or very difficult) out of season. Even fruits, which are often imported from tropical countries, will sometimes be unavailable for months at a time. Strawberries, for example, could not be found in the fall in Shanghai, though they popped up in February.

[thampik]

I also suppose that the vast majority of farming in asia does not use organic methods. Large (and not overly properous) populations dictate that cost is a major consideration.

So local and seasonal, but not organic. Two out of three ain't bad

Its ironic that the three supermarkets where I live have inverted this order. Not much (hardly any) that is local, a hell of a lot that is not seasonal, but a fair bit that is organic.

[Will]

I think that part of the problem (in China, at least) is that there's too much corruption for organic standards to really have teeth. When you talk to people there, many are concerned about pesticides / food safety. One thing that is interesting to note, though, is that there is still a lot of small scale farming in China, though I suspect this will continue to change with time. The size of the farm is another reason that certifying products as organically grown would be difficult.

The last time I was in mainland China (in '07), people seemed to buy most of their produce (and meat, for that matter) at large markets, and everything was incredibly fresh. Even in a big city like Shanghai, you can see the small scale farms that grow a lot of this produce only a short distance outside the "city" -- just take a train ride somewhere else, and you'll see them everywhere. Going out to more rural areas, and things are even fresher and local-er. Not only the produce, but sometimes the chickens which are probably going to be someone's dinner are just running around next to the food stand. None of this is driven by some sort of desire to eat "local" or "organic" - I think it's a combination of how agriculture works there, and the fact that people seem to truly appreciate food and can taste the difference. While most Chinese are far from vegetarians, and often seem truly baffled by the concept of non-religious vegetarianism, they do tend to eat a lot of vegetables, and engage in some very non-trendy, but fairly complete "nose to tail" eating.

I really enjoyed Fuchsia Dunlop's article about Dragon Well Manor in Hangzhou:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/11/24/081124fa_fact_dunlop

Here in the US, I think it's partially a class issue, as well as a matter of background, not just a cultural issue. If you've grown up not knowing where your next meal will come from at all, I suspect you're not going to be quite as picky about whether something is local. Here in Southern California, I think you can see more of an upper middle class in some of the Chinese and Vietnamese enclaves, and with that, I suspect there will be more interest in organically certified products. Much of the produce catering to Chinese and SE Asian communities is already grown locally; I can't say how much of it is grown without pesticides (whether certified organic or not). And as others have said, I think there's already a somewhat seasonal focus in the cuisines of many of these cultures, if only because what's local and seasonal is what's available, tasty, and reasonably priced.

More anecdotally, I will say that there's an organic Asian fusion restaurant here which has managed to not only survive but expand (to add an organic market) in an area which is not only heavily Chinese and Vietnamese in ethnic makeup, but which also has a lot of restaurants (and a lot of turnover). I think the food here is nothing to write home about, but the fact that it continues to exist says something to me. http://www.greenzonerestaurant.com/

You do see many of these groups insisting on free-range, organic, or "farm" poultry, but I think this has more to do with taste preference than a concern for animal welfare or food safety.

Edited March 26, 2011 by Will (log)

[Jeffery C]

This is not a political forum so I wont go into Will's comment about levels of corruption outside of our "pristinely" operated United States version Lobbyist groups have some powerful pull in the development of government policies, and organic labeling has not been immune to this sometimes corrupting effect to original intent.

Organic foods are gone into detail in the newly released Modernist Cuisine in I believe vol 3. Nathan Myhrvold was interviewed by Art Culinaire and commented on the subject of organic produce...

A lot of "organic" food is carefully grown to stay just inside the law so it can be called organic, but it may actually be worse than locally grown conventional produce. Food companies deeply exploit all of the many loopholes in the law.

Nathan's additional comments about organics and the remainder of the interview can be found here

[haresfur]

In eastern Washington State, my friends eagerly await the start of asparagus season and asparagus <insert meat> on the lunch menu at the local Chinese place. It's a fine way to mark the changing of the seasons.

Australia imports less of its produce than the USA, as near as I can tell, so I expect most restaurants will focus more on seasonal items (as opposed to this year's nonexistent bananas).