• Welcome to the eG Forums, a service of the eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters. The Society is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of the culinary arts. These advertising-free forums are provided free of charge through donations from Society members. Anyone may read the forums, but to post you must create an account.

e_monster

Sous Vide: Recipes, Techniques & Equipment (Part 8)

577 posts in this topic

Hollandaise is an emulsification. I wouldn't think SV would have any use in making that sauce.


Sleep, bike, cook, feed, repeat...

Chef Facebook HQ Menlo Park, CA

My eGullet Foodblog

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FYI - The Modernist Cuisine website has an 'about the book' pdf file that has a recipe for Sous Vide Instant Hollandaise. I made it about a week ago, worked very well, pretty foolproof. Here's a link.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

my thoughts exactly but it only uses sv to cook the egg with the wine reduction, then removing it and blending in butter as usual. So i think its could work i'm going to try it, the book it comes from is very interesting and with a $625 dollar list price with recipes from Grant Achatz and some of the other great food scientist, it looks promising gonna try it wednsday i will post pics and recipe we will see how it gos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Curious to know how our experts would handle this...

It looks like I'll have more guests than expected for Thanksgiving. Keeping with tradition, I'll be doing a fried turkey. Can't go with a larger turkey because of the limitations of the fryer, so I thought I'd do some extra turkey legs on the side. I love SV'd turkey legs. But the wife wants them to have crispy skin. Turkey legs come out of the bag so moist that frying the legs directly afterwards would be difficult, if not dangerous. Not sure that merely patting them dry would be enough. I could SV them the day before, let them dry out in the fridge and then throw them in the fryer the next day until they come up to temperature, but I'm not sure that they wouldn't be overcooked in the fry process. Any thoughts?

TIA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since the meat will be cold from being refrigerated overnight, I would put them in a warm oven until the meat comes up to plating temperature, then throw them in the fryer. They'd only need a couple of minutes and wouldn't (shouldn't) overcook.

Just curious, what temp are you doing the legs at? If you're doing it confit style (176F), you won't have to really worry about it overcooking anyway.

edit: readability


Edited by therippa (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will be cooking them for 10-12 hrs at 180F. I'm not worry about overcooking during the SV portion, but overcooking while bringing it up to temp in the fryer. Your suggestion would resolve that - assuming that warming doesn't bring juices back to the surface...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will be cooking them for 10-12 hrs at 180F. I'm not worry about overcooking during the SV portion, but overcooking while bringing it up to temp in the fryer. Your suggestion would resolve that - assuming that warming doesn't bring juices back to the surface...

Even if juices come to the surface, most of it would be fat which would just meld with the fat in the fryer. I think your legs will turn out crispy as hell :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FYI - The Modernist Cuisine website has an 'about the book' pdf file that has a recipe for Sous Vide Instant Hollandaise. I made it about a week ago, worked very well, pretty foolproof. Here's a link.

I'm very interested in your results. Looking at another's results, I wonder if you had the same 'foam' outcome ... the recipe calls for a siphon (I presume a soda siphon?) and the blogger used a "whip" which I am guessing is a whipped cream dispenser, which is quite likely a different outcome? I have no idea about these devices.

Was yours foamy?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have now a shoulder pork roast in the 59.5 C bath for the last 27 hours. The temp in the center has been at 59.5 c for several hours.

The amount of callogen transforming is incredible.. It seem that the piece is actually melting. Is there a rule on how many hours I should let it sit at that temp ?

It seems to be a consensus on ribs at 48 hours

Tks in advance for your help

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have now a shoulder pork roast in the 59.5 C bath for the last 27 hours. The temp in the center has been at 59.5 c for several hours.

The amount of callogen transforming is incredible.. It seem that the piece is actually melting. Is there a rule on how many hours I should let it sit at that temp ?

It seems to be a consensus on ribs at 48 hours

Tks in advance for your help

See upthread, 48h/55°C is fine, at 59.5°C somewhere between 24h and 36h may do.


Peter F. Gruber aka Pedro

eG Ethics Signatory

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FYI - The Modernist Cuisine website has an 'about the book' pdf file that has a recipe for Sous Vide Instant Hollandaise. I made it about a week ago, worked very well, pretty foolproof. Here's a link.

I'm very interested in your results. Looking at another's results, I wonder if you had the same 'foam' outcome ... the recipe calls for a siphon (I presume a soda siphon?) and the blogger used a "whip" which I am guessing is a whipped cream dispenser, which is quite likely a different outcome? I have no idea about these devices.

Was yours foamy?

Yes, I had very similar results. I did scale the recipe down a little bit for the amount of yolk I had on hand and used citric instead of malic acid. I used a thermowhip (not a soda siphon) just like the linked blogger.

I assume the foamy-ness is kinda the point of using a siphon (that and being able to hold it and dispense as required as the blogger pointed out...). It is a thick and rich foam, but seemed maybe a little 'lighter' than the traditional sauce. Maybe only 'lighter' in that it is less dense and as such, you may end up using less on a mass basis..? It was good on omelettes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Michael Voltaggio in his sous video for Williams Sonoma sv's turkey thighs in duck fat. No clue where to purchase in St. Louis, but chicken fat is readily available. In his video he recommends using the fat nearest the product he is cooking. I would think chicken fat would be similar to duck fat. Any thoughts???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Michael Voltaggio in his sous video for Williams Sonoma sv's turkey thighs in duck fat. No clue where to purchase in St. Louis, but chicken fat is readily available. In his video he recommends using the fat nearest the product he is cooking. I would think chicken fat would be similar to duck fat. Any thoughts???

You can order duck fat from Hudson Valley (and other wonderful and reasonably priced things). They send it REALLY fast, too!

In St. Louis, try the Wine & Cheese Place in Clayton, Local Harvest Grocery in the City or Winslow's Home in U City. Another possiblity is to call The Shaved Duck restaurant and see about getting some from them. If that does not work, put out an APB on StLBites.com and those great folks will probably be able to help you. I think that I have seen it around here (St. Louis) but I just can't recall where.

All that having been said, chicken fat is much more delicate than duck fat. It breaks down more easily in the rendering, I think. It liquifies instantly whereas duck fat stays coagulated much longer. I would suggest using good fresh lard as a duck fat replacement.


I've got one body and one life, I'm going to take care of them.

I'm blogging as the Fabulous Food Fanatic here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here are some replies or comments on recent posts.

The "siphon" in the instant hollandaise recipe is a cream whipping siphon, such as ISI or Liss. A soda siphon won't work. The point of this recipe is that you can make a hollandaise foam that is foamed to order. You can of course just make the hollandaise in a blender.

I prefer pork ribs at 60C/140F for 48 hours, but everybody has their own notion of what "ideal" means.

Duck fat is great stuff - you can render your own, or buy it. However, there is really not much point in cooking with large amounts of it. Just a small amount puts the flavor in. You can even cook without out (sous vide in a bag with no oil) then dress with some duck fat at the end. The turkey thighs (from the Voltaggio video) will come out the same either way - it is not necessary to have a lot of duck fat.

The point of the duck fat is flavor at the end of the cooking process - that's all. Chicken fat would also be good tasting - but a very different taste. Frankly if you are looking for flavorful fat, cook the thighs/legs sous vide then dress with rendered bacon fat at the end.

Reheating something cooked sous vide, then chilled is best done using sous vide again. That avoids overcooking. You can then sear at the very end, or in the case of a fryer, fry at the end. The warm oven suggestion will also work, but harder to control.


Nathan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Michael Voltaggio in his sous video for Williams Sonoma sv's turkey thighs in duck fat. No clue where to purchase in St. Louis, but chicken fat is readily available. In his video he recommends using the fat nearest the product he is cooking. I would think chicken fat would be similar to duck fat. Any thoughts???

I don't put duck fat (or chicken fat) in the bag because the meat gives off juices and then those fats just get poured away at the end with the liquids. It seems like a waste of good fat.

Not sure that using the fat "nearest" the product is best. Butter drizzled over meat is superb, but butter fat isn't "near" any meat.

Duck fat is easier to render than other fats because it melts at a relatively low temperature. Put some fatty duck skin in a bag, SV at 70 to 80, and lots a delicious fat is released.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Michael Voltaggio in his sous video for Williams Sonoma sv's turkey thighs in duck fat. No clue where to purchase in St. Louis, but chicken fat is readily available. In his video he recommends using the fat nearest the product he is cooking. I would think chicken fat would be similar to duck fat. Any thoughts???

In a trial run for Thanksgiving, I made some turkey confit tonight based on Keller's approach for duck confit. They turned out awesome - definitely a keeper in my growing sous vide repertoire!

The night before, I processed some kosher salt and fresh thyme together and packed around two whole turkey leg/thighs. I bagged these, vacuum sealed and kept in fridge overnight.

In the morning I rinsed the turkey off well with cold water, patted dry and bagged again with three tablespoons of duck fat. After vacuum sealing, I put in the water bath at 82C for 10 hours.

Just before dinner, I took them out of the water bath & de-bagged. The meat was falling-off-the-bone tender and very juicy. I tried doing a quick fry to crisp up the skin and add some crunchy bits, but the meat just fell apart in the hot oil. I ended up just lifting the limp skin off the meat and frying it separately into a nice crispy sheet to serve with the meat. Yum!

Edit: I actually got the duck fat from Amazon.com! It's really amazing what you can get there...


Edited by Borgstrom (log)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Monday we will be posting a recipe for turkey wings to the Modernist Cuisine blog for turkey wings cooked sous vide - you cure them with salt first (as for duck confit) then you cook them 12 hours at 58C/137F for 12 hours.


Nathan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi All,

This is my first post but I've been reading this site, especially this thread, for quite some time...

First off, thanks to all on this thread for the wealth of information -it's unbelievable! Special thanks to Douglas Baldwin, nathanm, and Pedro for their hard work and research. Can't wait for 'Modernist Cuisine'!

I was hoping for a bit of clarification...

We're serving an Atlantic Ocean Trout at the moment and I want to be sure that it is as safe as possible...

Upon arrival the trout is cleaned, then cured with citrus, herbs, salt, sugar, and honey for 3hrs. Next it is portioned and cooked sous-vide in clarified butter @45C for 25min. We use a chamber type professional vacuum pac machine and a Polyscience 7306. Calibration is routinely checked with infrared and digital stick type thermometers. The trout is immediately chilled in an 80% ice bath, then is held on ice for a maximum of 48hrs. Any unsold pcs are discarded. For service, they are re-heated in a 45C bath for 5min and served. The portions are generally 15-20mm thick, around 50g. Guests are advised that the trout is served mi-cuit; not for pregnant ladies or immune compromised individuals.

Hygeine is quite strict in the country where I am at the moment so I have sent some samples to the lab for validation; would rather be safe than sorry!

My question is for the scientifically minded of the group: is this method as safe as can be, aside from serving the fish well-done? Am I being over-cautious by discarding un-sold portions after 2 days?

Thanks in advance!

Cheers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Last night I bought a jar of duck fat at Williams-Sonoma. It is from a Canadian firm called Rougie (www.rougie.us). The sticker on the jar is just under $11 for 11.28 oz. (320g). I will be trying it pre-Thanksgiving on a fresh boneless turkey breast that Costco featured. I likely will use Mr. Preston's recommendation of 4 hours @ 160 F, followed by 30 minutes in the oven at 350 F.


"A cloud o' dust! Could be most anything. Even a whirling dervish.

That, gentlemen, is the whirlingest dervish of them all." - The Professionals by Richard Brooks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We're serving an Atlantic Ocean Trout at the moment and I want to be sure that it is as safe as possible...

Upon arrival the trout is cleaned, then cured with citrus, herbs, salt, sugar, and honey for 3hrs. Next it is portioned and cooked sous-vide in clarified butter @45C for 25min. We use a chamber type professional vacuum pac machine and a Polyscience 7306. Calibration is routinely checked with infrared and digital stick type thermometers. The trout is immediately chilled in an 80% ice bath, then is held on ice for a maximum of 48hrs. Any unsold pcs are discarded. For service, they are re-heated in a 45C bath for 5min and served. The portions are generally 15-20mm thick, around 50g. Guests are advised that the trout is served mi-cuit; not for pregnant ladies or immune compromised individuals.

Cheers.

Food safety is a statistical phenomenon - if food is very contaminated you can get sick even if you follow the guidelines; if it is not contaminated with pathogens then you can get away with a lot. That is, until you find some contamination.

Personally, I would not recomend the process you are using - I don't use cook-chill sous vide unless you cook to sterization/pasteurization temperatures and times. I would NOT recommend doing cook-chill at 45C. There are many pathogens that can survive that temperature, and then they will continue to slowly grow in the refer for up to 48 hours. This is not a good idea. Yes, you can get away with it if you fish isn't contaminated, but if you encounter some Listeria (or many other pathogens) your approach is not good.

Instead what I would do is just cook the fish at 45C and serve immediately. That is actually much safer than what you are doing. The 45C cooking period will not kill most pathogens, but it will accelerate their growth. Food safety wise you are better off storing the trout raw and cooking it to order than sous vide cooking first and chilling because your first cooking is NOT sufficient to kill many important pathogens.

In my own personal preference I think 45C is fully done fish with respect to texture and taste, not mi-cuit. If I really wanted mi-cuit, that is more like 38C - at that temperature salmon won't change color, and most white fleshed fish won't become opaque. However, the aspect of warning people on the menu is always a good idea.

One odd thing in your description is that you cook the fish for 25 minutes the first time, then reheat for 5 mintues. Are you serving it cold? In general for fish you do not need to cook it by holding it at a temperature - you only cook it long enough reach the desired core temperature. For fish pieces the size you describe 25 minutes should do that. In general for tender food cooked sous vide the reheat time is the same as the cooking time. Obivously that is not true for tough meats cooked for hours or days, but in general reheating takes the same amount of time as the cooking step. The 5 minute reheat won't possibly be enough to reheat the fish all the way through, so my conclusion is that you are serving it cold.

So, my recommendation is to cook to order. You can leave the fish in the bath at 45C during service (for up to 2-3 hours), but then discard what is left afterwards.

As I said in starting this point, it is always statistical so I don't doubt that you have gotten away with the approach you are using now for a while. The trouble is, you don't know that will always be the case, and your current process could make things worse when and if you do have some contamination.


Nathan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nathan, first thank you for all you are doing and for being available for questions and problems. In your last post, you suggest that reheating times should equal original cooking times. So a protein at say 140 F cooked for 90 minutes would then need the same time and temperature in the water bath after removing from the refrigerator?

My other question is about serving temperatures. If I am doing a steak at 140 for dinner F a la minute, I remove it from the vacuum bag, pat it dry and sear in a hot pan for the maillard reaction, then plate. However, by the time I put the steak on the plate and walk into the dining room, the first bite does not seem 'hot'. If I were at a steakhouse where they broil under significant temperatures, then the first bite is what we have come to expect for serving temperatures. Logically, I know an item prepared sous vide can never exceed the temperatures we have set. Is it our expectation or memory that when we see a steak that the first bites should be hot?


"A cloud o' dust! Could be most anything. Even a whirling dervish.

That, gentlemen, is the whirlingest dervish of them all." - The Professionals by Richard Brooks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This year for Thanksgiving, I was thinking of trying to do a Turkey breast "porchetta style" based on Mario Batali's recipe. I was thinking to stuff the breast with a turkey leg sausage and the appropriate seasonings and then cook it sous vide. Is this possible? If I do this can I still cook it to 140-145 like I would the breast itself or will that not work because of the leg meat? Do I need to to cook the sausage first?

Thanks for your advice!


Mike

The Dairy Show

Special Edition 3-In The Kitchen at Momofuku Milk Bar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Similar Content

    • By bhsimon
      Anyone tried this?
       
      I'm trying to think of something novel to do for my friends at an upcoming birthday weekend. We are renting a house in the Hunter Valley (Australian wine region) and food is a major component of our weekend. Last time I did fizzy fruit—the grapes and oranges were awesome and everyone enjoyed the unique experience. I want to do something quirky like that again.
       
      The whipping siphon is easy to transport so I'm interested in using it. The siphoned soufflé in Modernist Cuisine, volume 4 page 297, has a chocolate variation that does not require propylene glycol alginate or maltodextrin (I don't have those things in my pantry, yet). That looks like it might be a good one to try. Anyone done that and have some advice for me before I dive in?
    • By bhsimon
      Besides the health concerns, deep frying steak is the best way to get an even colour and crust on steak. In my most recent experiment, I tried the technique of deep frying prior to, and after, cooking the steak sous vide. In the past, I had only fried the meat after it had been cooked.
       
      The meat was veal chops. As can often be the case, the meat was mishandled somewhere along the way. The obvious signs of this were indentations in the surface. This kind of thing makes it tricky to pan fry and get even colour.
       


       
      This soft meat is also tricky to vacuum seal as it can often be further compressed and misshapen in the process.
       
      I was delighted to observe that a short 45 seconds in hot oil fixed both of these issues! I didn't expect that. Nice. The meat plumped up and that indentation was gone. It also held its shape nicely when vacuum packed.
       

       
      Time and temperature matters. The difference can be just a few seconds or degrees. In the next picture, the time was the same but the oil was 20°C hotter for the steak on the left and the crust is noticeably darker. My next experiment will try 30 seconds at 200°C before and after.
       


      The goal is to keep the crust as thin as possible.
       

       
      I hadn't anticipated the secondary benefits of deep frying prior to sous vide. The plumping of the meat and slight firmness made them easy to package and present. I am curious whether anyone has observed this. I am also curious if it would it work in hot water, rather than oil.



    • By Porthos
      I have purchased an Anova circulator. My interest in sous vide is based upon needing to prepare chicken and pork dishes that remain more moist than other cooking methods I have used. This is based upon needing more moistness for my wife. After her bariactric surgery she became sensitive to meat that is not still very moist.
       
      I would like recommendations for some threads to read through to help get me started.
    • By Adamsm83
      So I did a quick search for a SV whole prime rib and everything I found just turned into, "why waste your time? Just roast it!" Which I would generally agree with, but the kitchen I work in only has one oven that can't be tied up long enough to do the prime rib, so I found a couple of recipes out there and I think my recipe will be as follows...
      Cut a 10# prime rib in half and salt and pepper the outside.
      Vaccum seal each 5# roast and SV at 137 degrees for 10hours.
      Remove from the bags. Pat dry, rub all over with roasted garlic puree, chopped rosemary, thyme & pepper.
      Roast in a 500 degree oven until dark brown.
       
      Now here is where things get tricky, I want to hold it under a banquette heat lamp during service and cut to order (like you used to see at every home town restaurant in the 90's) So my questions are, 1, is it safe? I realize that the SV and the oven should be safe, but then it sits out , although under a heat lamp, lets face it, they aren't great. Still if it sits from 5 to 9 and is gone by 9 then its okay to be in the danger zone since it will be gone in 4 hours anyways (assuming we sell out or throw out left overs. 2, what would my expected yield be after SV. I read you have a loss of approx. 20% when roasting, less if its bone-in, so SV w/ bones what are your opinions? And lastly, what are peoples opinions about the flavor profile of SV beef on the bone. 
       
      Other info to consider, i will be using a very fresh, very local beef that is grass fed up to 600# and finished on brewers grains. The meat has a very rich flavor, not overly irony, but still much more "meaty, beefy" flavor than the crap at the super markets. 
      Anyways, I would like to get this thing rolling next week, so any helpful tips, tricks or advice would be much appreciated. Thanks!
    • By Morkai
      I am planning on making Michael Ruhlman's macaroni and cheese this weekend for a party. In the recipe, you make a soubise sauce with flour, butter, milk, and carmelized onions. You hand blend these all together (with some spices), and then add the grated cheese to the hot liquid to melt. Then you can mix in with the cooked pasta and keep overnight in the fridge.
       
      Then I remembered I have sodium citrate in the pantry. 
       
      We like this recipe, but find that it's not as "cheesy" or "creamy" as we'd like it to be sometimes, especially after cooking. Would adding a dash of sodium citrate to the cheese/soubise mixture help keep it that classic cheesy texture? Even if it sat overnight in the fridge and was then baked? As I am making this along with smoking a couple pork butts for my girlfriend's co-workers, I really don't want to have a food disaster! 
       
      Thanks all,
       
      Mork
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.